Talk:Cham Albanians/Archive 6

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1 ← Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7

Notable people

The added figures are of Cham origin and will not be deleted.See kosovo serbs,albanians in Macedonia etc.There are included people of the origin.And don't continue deleting edits about notable chams. Rolandi+ (talk) 11:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rolandi
There are a few issues in having Bajo in the notable people section. He was born in Gjirokaster. Gjirokaster falls within the limits of of Laberia and not Cameria. The cut off line is usually taken used in Albania for spliting the two neighbouring regions as the Bistrica river that passes near the town of Delvina. Though the village of Navarica is slightly below this line and surrounded by Greek speaking villages, it is a Lab speaking village (nearby are the Orthodox Albanian Lab speaking ones of Muzina and Peca). So Bajo is not a Cham. Regarding Kole Idromeno, its more difficult. His dad was a Arvanite migrant from the island of Hydra whose family resided in Parga, while Kole's dad then went to live in Shkoder where he married a local girl. Regarding Kole then, its more complicated, so i am not sure if he should or should not be in the list.Resnjari (talk) 14:29, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Resnjari, Thank you for your help!However Wikipedia is a source based place ,my edits are sourced so I don't see any problem about them.I also want you to contribute some more informations about cham related articles as I have seen that you have some very interesting infos about chams.Also don't let some penguins vandalize your editings.Just report them.Thank you. Rolandi+ (talk) 15:19, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The whole Wikipedia procedure thing i am getting use to, though i have been on Wikipedia for e while (mainly the Albanian one) i hadn't found the need until very recently to make myself acquainted with the policy. Regarding Bajo, unless there is source saying his family come from a village in Cameri and then moved to Gjirokaster. Then it ok, but you would need to say that Bajo origins are from so and so village in Cameri. I also need to add that amongst some Albanian books, they call all of Greek Epirus Cameri, the bits that never had the name or contained a Albanian population (see the Albanian article Voshtina. In the references there is a quotation Zojzi etc) which is done so for other purposes. Cameri in a traditional sense encompassed all of Thesprotia province, two thirds of Preveza Province and a small slice of Ioannina province. About Idromeno, i think he is ok to be in there. You would need though to add a small but very important detail there to what you have already for him in the article. After "painter, sculptor, photographer, architect and engineer." Of Cham Albanian heritage with origins from Parga (fathers side). All the best ! Resnjari (talk) 17:05, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


Alexikoua,you firstly said that only Sejko is member of this community, the rest is not (per correspondent articles).Now you say that they are POV.Why didn't you say that they are POV pushing since the first time?Why don't you order your socks to help you?Why don't you read what POV means ?Why don't you report me for using "always" POV?Why do I need to report you for deleting my recent edits only by calling them "POV" when obviously they aren't?Why do I need to delete your POVs referenced with sources such as greek politicans and greek pseudo-historians?Why do I need to have a look on your edits at articles like "Souliotes" or "Arvanites"?There are so many times that you use the explanation "POV" to delete other editors contributions that I have to report you.You are lucky as I don't have enough time until the next Tuesday,however you aren't going to continue deleting my edits.Goodbye,my Alexikoua.Thank you for your contribution. Rolandi+ (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The inline citations need to meet wp:rs and wp:verify and off course you need to give full citation of a source (see how to wp:cite), you also need to follow Resnjari's advice on how to present a decent argument in wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 20:32, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

They are now fully cited (they were cited,however your socks are interesting people)Why don't you answear my questions?Why do your socks appear each time I ask you a question?Strange!However I'm going to be busy for one or two days,then We will have enough time to discuss.Thank you my dear Alexikoua.....Rolandi+ (talk) 21:21, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Actually they are not [[1]]. the 'work' you cite lacks: publisher, ISBN (or ISSN, if it's published in a journal), url and most important lacks wp:verify. In general self-published material doesn't meet wp:rs and should be removed.

Also, you have breached 3rr, thus I advice you to self revert in order to avoid a possible block.Alexikoua (talk) 06:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, don't be dispirited regarding editing. If you don't have access to a large corpus of sources from a library, try google books and google scholar. Do keep an eye though on some articles. A lot of Albanian editors seem to no longer be around. It as if they have all abandoned the project here. There are a few articles which are in need of a mass fix up, such as the Northern Epirus one. I urge you and other Albanian editors to just keep an eye on things so everyone does things by the book.Resnjari (talk) 09:48, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi,Resnjari, I haven't been dispirited.I have been blocked for 36 hours,however it wasn't any problem for me ,as I have been busy for some days.Rolandi+ (talk) 11:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Which is the ISBN that dr. k wants? Rolandi+ (talk) 20:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

You have to provide solid evidence that this book is written by a scholar who is widely accepted as an authority in his/her field. You have to establish who is the author, his/her credentials, the publisher of the book etc. Also, the ISBN of the book is not recognised by the ISBN sytem. Regardless, you must stop your edit-warring or you will be blocked again as you did less than two days ago. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 20:34, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Firstly I don't care about your warnings.Secondly you have to use this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ABookSources&isbn=9789994303656+ which is provided by Wikipedia.The fact that a website (as it says:This website is an independent service and is not affiliated with The International ISBN Agency Limited or any other national ISBN registration agency)doesn't mean it is not a correct ISBN..So your claim that it isn't recognised by the ISBN system is a false claim. Also you can see this:http://www.umb.edu.al/upload/bord_cv_pdf/LUAN_OMARI_CV.pdf .Rolandi+ (talk) 05:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi,here are the full details for the Omari book (http://www.grepi.al/produkti/15939/ceshtja-e-pakicave-kombetare-dhe-shqiperia). Look up the guidelines regarding footnoting. Anyway all Albanian books have a ISBN. Do a simple google search of the book title and almost always the full details can be found. Often that number is either on the back cover or a few pages in the book at the beginning. All the best with things. However list that it is Omari's view regarding the numbers of Albanian speakers in Thesprotia, because he does not state what he is basing them on (fieldwork etc ?). Take caution with Omari's numbers.Resnjari (talk) 07:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)


You have to use this https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ABookSources&isbn=9789994303656+ which is provided by Wikipedia.The fact that a website (as it says:This website is an independent service and is not affiliated with The International ISBN Agency Limited or any other national ISBN registration agency)doesn't mean it is not a correct ISBN..So your claim that it isn't recognised by the ISBN system is a false claim. Also you can see this:http://www.umb.edu.al/upload/bord_cv_pdf/LUAN_OMARI_CV.pdf .Rolandi+ (talk) 14:16, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Do not remove comments of others, especially when these comments do not agree with you. I agree with Resnjari that Osman does not say how he got his numbers therefore his numbers are not reliable. End of story. Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 16:53, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Are you sure Dr. K?Osmani doesn't say where he found the figures about Greece and Europian Union...but he says where he found the figures about chams in Turkey,Albania and USA. Rolandi+ (talk) 18:20, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

And where did he find them? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 20:26, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
If the figure deals with the Cham diapsora and Omari states where he got them from fine. Yes when combined, people belonging to the wider Cham speaking population (Muslim and Christian, within Albania, the sizable diaspora in Turkey and those of Greece, then yes it reaches high numbers. Ronaldni, you need to state that regarding the USA, Albania, and Turkey and give the numbers for them. Its important so we don't end up in situations like this which becoming time consuming over small matters. Nonetheless guys, look, one there are Orthodox Albanian speakers in Epirus and they are a sizable population. However, considering that Omari gives numbers of 350,000 is an issue (because all of Greek Epirus numbers around that give or take), unless he is citing numbers given in a historical context in the past by some author (still even then use with caution, just like Greek numbers that paint all Orthodox Albanian speakers as "Greeks"). If so it should be stated as such. Currently the only author who comes close to giving a reliable estimate to the Orthodox Albanian speaking population in Greek Epirus speaking the Cham dialect is Vickers (40,000). This number coincides with Greek census settlement numbers and the rough geographic outline of the area were the Cham dialect was and is still spoken (minus the former Muslim settlements). Orthodox Albanian speakers are spread over a large swath of Thesprotia, they are the outright majority and compact in the Fanari region all the way to the Lamari valley which is Greek speaking and they still dominate the wider Lakka Souli area (north of Thesprotikon town) - (see Cham Albanian article, i have provided much information in that regard for any editor to check the sources for themselves. Whenever Baltsiotis decides in the near future to publish his book on the interwar period, we will have for the first time a full list of both Orthodox and Muslim Albanian Cham dialect speaking settlements, and believe me i will cite them all in this article. Until the publication of that book, the numbers matter is as it is now.). Compare the population numbers of those settlements according to the Greek census, they coincide mainly with Vickers coming close to that 40, 000 number (give or take a few thousand). Rolandi, the issue of numbers is settled. The POV (and even racism) also that was in this article has been removed after much effort and involvement in a time consuming process, but was well worth it. What needs expanding is stuff on the Cham dialect and and some cultural stuff in here. The difficult bit, like in the Souliotes article is over. There are other articles that need attention that do have POV, or are in need of someone with a passion who can expand them (using peer reviewed sources). For example: Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars etc. I hope i have not offended you, but do keep editing. Though i understand your consternation regarding the numbers of Orthodox Albanian speakers within Greece, it is a very tricky matter (due to a multitude of reasons ranging from less than polite views within Greek society and state of Albanian language, identity and culture that obscures that presence as noted in the article -see Baltsiotis) and each should be treated according to context, geography etc. Resnjari (talk) 20:37, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari,Firstly this isn't a small matter.It's an important one.When Omari refers to numbers in Greece ,he refers to Chams in Greece,not only in Epirus.Many Orthodox chams have moved from Epirus to other parts of Greece. Also what about the notable people.If you can't justify the deletion of them,don't revert my edits.Rolandi+ (talk) 09:36, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi, its hard to quantify their number in Greece overall as well. Of the Cham population, the Muslim one the eve of 1912-1913 numbered around 50, 000. They made up the bulk of the Cham population. Orthodox Albanian speakers of the Cham dialect even in the interwar period made up around 20-30, 000 people (according to Albanian government estimates and the Italian census carried out during the war.) Taking into account some population growth (Greece and the region post WW2 has had a contracting birth rate unlike Turkey) and even with the migration to other parts of Greece (e.g. Ioannina and Athens) plus also mainly to Germany (in the 1960s), you still do not get a total population regarding the Orthodox Albanian speakers of the Cham dialect of 350, 000. That number is cited by some in Albania who count nearly all people in Greek Epirus as being some kind of ex-Albanians or ex-Albanian speakers which is wrong. On the eve of 1912-1913, Albanian speakers in the bit that became part of Greek Epirus, they populated the following regions (British diplomat Valentine Chirol gives the best description of the limits of this region as he traversed the area in the late 1880s. See also Baltsiotis' article on the Muslim Chams which gives a almost similar definition of the Cham Albanian dialect speaking area. Chriol writes (Chirol, Valentine (1881). Twixt Greek and Turk. W Blackwood & sons, pp. 231-232):

"The limits of the Albanian-speaking districts of Epirus south of the Kalamas may be roughly defined as follows: Starting from the Kalamas near the sharp bend which that river takes to the north at the foot of Mount Lubinitza, they follow the crest of the amphitheatrical range of Suli as far as the gorge of the Acheron. In that neighbourhood, probably owing to the influence which the Suliote tribe at one time enjoyed, they drop over to the east into the valley of the Luro, and follow its basin as far as the peninsula on which Prevesa, is situated, where the Greek element resumes its preponderancy. Within these outer limits of the Albanian tongue the Greek element is not unrepresented, and in some places, as about Paramythia, for instance, it predominates; but, on the whole, the above- defined region may be looked upon as essentially Albanian. In this, again, there is an inner triangle which is purely Albanian—viz., that which lies between the sea and the Kalamas on the one hand and the waters of the Vuvo on the other. With the exception of Parga and one or two small hamlets along the shore, and a few Greek chifligis on Albanian estates, the inhabitants of this country are pure Tchamis—a name which, notwithstanding Von Hahn’s more elaborate interpretation. I am inclined to derive simply from the ancient appellation of the Kalamas, the Thyamis, on both banks of which stream the Albanian tribe of the Tchamis, itself a subdivision of the Tosks, has been settled from times immemorial. From the mountain fastnesses which enclose this inner triangle, the Tchamis spread out and extended their influence east and south; and the name of Tchamouria, which is especially applied to the southernmost Albanian settlements in Epirus, was probably given to that district by themselves as an emphatic monument of their supremacy; but it cannot belong less rightfully to the centre, where they hold undivided sway."

A recent Euromosaic study undertaken by the EU for minority languages gives a very similar outline of the current day area (to that of Valentine Chirol) that speaks Albanian in Greek Epirus (http://www.uoc.edu/euromosaic/web/document/albanes/fr/i2/i2.html ): It says:

-Les locuteurs chrétiens de la variété dilaectale tcham sont, quant à eux, implantés dans les départements suivants: 

   -Thesprotie: ils occupent la majeure partie du département, et sont essentiellement installés dans la zone frontalière avec l'Albanie.
   -Prévéza: dans la partie du département de Prévéza limitrophe de la Thesprotie (Prévézaniko) et dans quelques villages au nord de Thesprotiko.
  -Ioannina: de rares villages dans la zone limitrophe de la Thesprotie et du département de Prévéza.

The numbers that Vickers gives are closest to that reality regarding Orthodox Albanian speakers. 350, 000 does not add up in any way. I don't want to say this, but Omari's numbers are a problem. The same way that Greek numbers that count all Orthodox people who speak Albanian as "Greek". If you can find estimates given by historians Pellumb Xhufi, Hajredin Isufi and Ibrahim Hoxha who have written extensively on the Cham issue and whose work is very credible, by all means. But saying that the 350, 000 number is accurate and the only number won't do because it does not tally up with the evidence.

"Also what about the notable people.If you can't justify the deletion of them,don't revert my edits."

Like i have said to Alexikoua in previous times, don't pin things on me that i have not done. Regarding the notable people section, i have looked into it. Both Cerciz and Bajo Topulli are not from Cameria. They were both born in Gjirokaster. Gjirokaster falls within the region known as Laberia, or land of the Labs. I did a search on Google books and google scholar and even on google shqip (to see even if some internet blog or article makes even that claim) and none say they were Cham. Nor do they say that thier family origins are from Cameria. If you want to create a notable people section in the Labëria page, go ahead and add the Topulli brothers. As for Idromeno, he is more complicated and for him to be in the article it will require an inline citation and page number to be provided in the article itself and it stating that he has Cham origins. The Albanian wikipedia page says his family origins are from Parga from an Arvanite family that moved from Hydra island one or two generations before he was born. Problem is no one has bothered to source that with a reference. You are going to need a source reference otherwise, other editors will challenge that.

The way i have gone about things in Wikipedia is this. I have sought out peer reviewed material that Greek editors in here will not be able to challenge them, even if much of the information contained within makes them uncomfortable (Its why i use mainly Greek academics for that purpose, yet amusingly i still get POV accusations. And after a in depth discussion always unfounded). I have read Wikipedia policy now to the grain (something i should have done much earlier). They are forced to deal with it, even though some have said to me its POV at first. As you saw in the Souliotes article, some of those editors who have privileges, started to make up policy (which is a Wikipedia no, no, considering that such a thing has bullying and intimidation connotations) on the run with me. If anything the policy was meant to protect new editors who have peer reviewed material and is relevant to the article from editors who may dislike its content and may otherwise block it. There is after all third party resolution and it would not be a good thing for them (considering if they want to protect their privileges) to not engage with peer reviewed material that is more than relevant to a article) regarding maintenance of those privileges going into the future. The Cham Albanian page regarding numbers is fine and the POV and racism from before has been cleaned up.Resnjari (talk) 12:11, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Dance of Zalongo

The specific section about this dance/song appears as wp:OR and unrelated to the cultural background of this community. The inline reference can not confirm the current text: [[2]] [[3]].Alexikoua (talk) 09:08, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Good call Alexikoua. The song about Mosko before in the article was in reference to her and some Souliote women getting cornered in the coastal Orthodox Albanian speaking village of Riniassa (alb Rrenjase), today Rizo. I added the song that scholar and folklorist Fatos Rrapaj collected from Cham refugees arriving in Albania. In the book it also says that the people he collected this particular song were from Filaites who had arrived in Lushnje 1945. Rrapaj specially states in the notes to that song that this the song of Zalongo, and have added his notes as an inline citation also. I have the scanned page if your are interested in looking at it and can send it to you by email (its in Albanian though).Resnjari (talk) 15:50, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

What's problematic here is that the song describes the incident in Riniassa not of Zalongo, another incident/place which was unrelated to Mosko and Despo. For the record the Greek version of the incident in Riniasa is one of the most popular songs of the Souliotic circle [[4]][[5]]. But it's not a Zalongo song too.Alexikoua (talk) 18:06, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Nice job by replacing it with the correct one. Alexikoua (talk) 19:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Fatos Rrapaj was a excellent scholar and folklorist. His work is always of the highest quality. He died some years back in abject poverty. A sad end to a great researcher. He was a Lab from the Kurvelesh area. That book of Cham songs he did is over 800 pages so it took me a while to find the song. I did it late at night so i forget there was a index section. His Lab book of songs is over 1300 pages. I got them last year when my library ordered them from the library of congress, so i did photocopies of those old books. Regarding songs about Souliots in Albanian, all stem from the Cham dialect group, whether Muslim or Christian. Rrapaj notes that both used the same songs/repertoire with few exceptions (as they used to attend each others weddings and many were related as Islamisation was recent back then amongst Cham dialect speakers). Thansis Moraitis says the same thing though with the addition that after the war, the repertoire amongst Orthodox Albanian speakers has been contracting in Greek Eprius. (see: http://www.thanassismoraitis.gr/musicology_gr.html in section> A. Πρώτη ομάδα ομιλητών: Οι Αρβανίτες της Ηπείρου ).Resnjari (talk) 11:59, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Number in Greece

Someone claims there are "44" Chams in Greece.The claim is based on a source that says that Orthodox Chams suddenly are not Chams in the 21st centuary.The infobox says that Chams are Muslim and Orthodox.The religion section also says that today chams are muslim+orthodox.This may help :[1] As there is no consensus that orthodox chams aren't chams the "44" figure can't stay.Rolandi+ (talk) 16:01, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Rolandi its complicated. After World War Two, Orthodox Albanian speakers in the area no longer (or rarely) use the Albanian subdivision self appellation of Cham for themselves due to their integration as part of wider Greek society and their support of EDES and Zervas. Thanasis Moratis has documented that they call the local Albanian language shqip. I have said in the past that most Orthodox Albanian speakers no longer wish to identify themselves as Albanians and has been documented. Mainly Muslims and Catholics to an extent identify as Albanians today. Numbers will vary. Although the source is interesting that you have put up. Its in the 40, 000 range though its not the number, but one estimate put up by those Western academics like Elsie and does not cancel out Vickers. Curious though, what the objections of Greek editors to it (considering some are talking about "excuses". To that particular editor i say as i have many times before to not resort to name calling and keep discussion in a respectful manner). Resnjari (talk) 07:53, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari,it's not comlicated.We are not here to give our opinions as some editors try to do.We are here to edit Wikipedia based on the consensus of the references.There is no consensus between scholars that suddenly orthodox chams aren't chams anymore.This was no one can add population figures that break the neutrality.So the "44" figure just can't stay.Rolandi+ (talk) 08:31, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Scholars do not deny that there are Orthodox Albanian speakers. The Elsie source gives a estimate to their number which is ok. Seperate to that though they do not say they are Cham identifying though. Only Muslims use that self appellation these days.Resnjari (talk) 16:04, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

"Only Muslims use that self appellation these days."Where did you learn that Resnjari.I know that some scholars claim that Orthodox Chams aren't anymore Chams but this is a clear POV.As there isn't a concensus between scholars that Orthodox Chams aren't Chams anymore the "44" figure can't stay.Rolandi+ (talk) 14:47, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Georgina Kretsi did fieldwork in the 2000s and states that in her work. The term Shqiptar(according to Banfi) and shqip(attested by Moraitis) though are still in use as they did not attain a stigma like the word Cham amongst Orthodox speakers. In Greek Macedonia for example, the self appellation of Bulgar attained a negative connotations that today Slav speakers identify by means of the regional ethnoym of Macedonian. Different regions underwent different experiences regarding self -identification.Resnjari (talk) 15:41, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Cham Albanians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers. —cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 04:15, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Sources cited for the Cham Albanian Population

It came to my attention that the sources provided in the Infobox, titled: "The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece" in fact are dubious ones, containing historical errors and inaccuracies both about the history and the events in the region of Epirus/Chameria, as well as about matters concerning Albania and Greece. It claims that the region of Epirus "was Albanian" without data backing this theory, that the Thesprotans were an Illyrian tribe and many more. To me all that sounds like biased and promoting the Albanian nationalism. Also the source in question, does not mention, nor verifies the number 440.000 for Cham Albanians. Can someone help me and enlighten me on what does this source has to do with the number 440.000 in the infobox? I have removed the source from the infobox and I copy-pasted it here just in case: [2] I wasn't able to gain access to the other sources in the Infobox, due to broken links and lack of access to the content, but given this source here, I suspect they too may contain inaccuracies or errors. Can someone help me investigate and verify the sources? --SilentResident (talk) 20:34, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

The correct link is here [[6]]. Definitely the above claims do not meet wp:rs, the author simply recycles a number of declarations by irredentist organisations, without taking care to check any serious bibliography.Alexikoua (talk) 21:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
After checking the sources more thoroughly, I found that the information and data provided in the article do not meet Wikipedia's quality standards, and, I found that the historical events about Chameria and the Cham Albanians are presented in an unfair, one-sided and biased manner which does not reflect the historical reality in the region. We have clearly a case of Wikipedia: Neutral point of view violation here. In addition to the POV issues like the claims that Epirus and the Thesprotans were non-Greek/Illyrian/Albanian in ancient times (which I mentioned in my previous comment above), the article seems to have reliability issues: it provides bloated population figures for the Cham Albanian population in the region, without citing any reliable sources and by ignoring completely any of the population censuses conducted by the Ottoman Empire and the Greek state, under which Chameria came in control, at different times in history. The sources and the article also claim that there was still a large Muslim Cham Albanian presence in the region of Epirus even after the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey happened, which is not true, and they do not take in account the demographic changes that occured in Epirus, from the Ottoman era to the period of World War II and the modern days. Furthermore, the sources cited in this article do not provide us details about how the Cham population figures have been acquired, or measured. Given the lack of proofs and facts, it is evident that the sources and the information in the article are of dubious and of unreliable origin, and their purpose is no other than to recycle the political opinions promoted by the irredendist and nationalist circles from within Albania, which exaggerate the historical events as part of their nationalistic propaganda which often is related to the irredendist concept of "Greater Albania". These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography. If POV and lack of reliability were not enough of a problem already, these dubious sources distinguish the good and the bad people based on their nationality - the Albanians are portrayed as good and innocent victims who suffered from unjust campaigns of ethnic cleansing, genocide and assimulation conducted by the bad Greeks, which is very unencyclopedic by all means. The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!). But, again, like I said above, these claims, including the thousands of missing (or dead) Cham Albanians, are presented to us without any evidence/proof; and are backed by data/numbers that lack any reliable sources or explanation of how they were acquired. Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards. --SilentResident (talk) 15:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
Due to the NPOV issues detected and listed above, the absence of reliable and neutral sources and the lack of original research, I tagged the article for disputed neutrality and the need for a cleanup. --SilentResident (talk) 16:00, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
There are a number of issues with your comments you have made that are problematic. The article in no way says that there are Muslim Chams in Greek Epirus expect for a small number as outlined by Greek scholars and cited. Your view regarding "bloated numbers" of Chams are the ones given in Greek scholarship that offers numbers given by various positions of the day (interwar period and of course they differ) and are cited as such by Greek scholarship. Your claim also about "irredendist concept of "Greater Albania" is not mentioned in any of the article and nor have you referenced in here within the talk as to where such a thing is. Your comment "These are in no way appropriate for an encyclopedia such as the Wikipedia, because they are not neutral, lack any serious historical research and objective bibliography." while you do not point to a specific sentence or peer reviewed source is most troubling as to the claims made by you and can be considered POV pushing at this point in time. You say "The events are presented in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by telling them that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!)." The non-nationalsitic Greek scholarship of today like that of Dr. Lambros Baltsiotis who has gone through the Greek government archive and done an extensive appraisal of Greek sources provides extensive material showing what was occurring at the time and is cited as such. Unless you can disprove what he has said you are once again at this point in time as specific exmaples are not referred to as POV pushing. Note that Albanian scholarship is not used, but the Greek within the article ! As for your comment "Given that the Wikipedia's role is not to take sides, nor to adopt biased political views, but to present a neutral point of view and accurate information from verified sources, to me it is clear that this article needs a serious cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards." i am very concerned as you have not pointed to any specific sentence or area, and instead given generic commentary based on personal views. If you cannot be more specific then that than your placing of the neutrality tag above cannot be interpreted as good faith. Please point out specific issues with the article, like i had done in the past and please present peer reviewed material that calls into question the article at the moment. Thank you Resnjari (talk) 05:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Resnjari, let me bring you just an example of the article's writing problems: one of the paragraphs claim that "in the aftermath of World War II the entire Muslim Cham population had to flee to Albania." which is not correct because a part of that population was affected by the Population Exchange happening some years earlier between Greece and Turkey.
Resnjari, like I said above, the sources present the events in an way that give the readers a false perception of what really happened in the region, by claiming that there was a systematic Genocide (if not Genocide, at least Ethnic cleansing) of the Cham Albanians by the bad Greeks(!) which resulted in thousands(!) of Cham Albanian deaths(!), and I bring you an example of what the sources write and give this false perception, by copy-pasting the cited sources here: "… and as history has recorded, Greece has committed genocide against Albanians of the Muslim faith". The Turkish authorities have urged the Greek government to participate in an international conference on the Cham dispute at which the Albanian government would also be present." plus, the following: "in the period from June 1944 to March 1945, during which an estimated 5,000 men, women and children were killed. The rest of Chameria's Albanian Muslim population fled over the border to Albania where they have lived in exile ever since. The Chams are demanding the recognition of about 4,000 Chams who disappeared as a result of those conflicts, and the property rights of about 150,000 others." at another section of the document by Miranda Vickers. As you see, the article is citing sources which give this perception of the events that happened in the region, Resnjari and that is a problem, as it does not take a neutral point of view and rather adopts one-sided biased point of view about the events in Chameria and this cannot be tolerated.
Really when there have been thousands of Cham Albanian gone missing or dead and we haven't noticed it? Were the Greeks really such, genocidal as the sources are trying to portray them as, against the Cham Albanians? This comes in contrast with the established and verified figures of only 200-300 deaths that really happened in the time of the Expulsion of Cham Albanians, which is far bellow the number of 9.000 (5.000 killed + 4.000 missing) claimed by Vickers. And to not forget to mention that the population figures in the Vickers sources in question, as well as in the current article, claim the existence of 205.000 and 440.000 Cham Albanians respectively, which contradict the Ottoman, the Greek and the Italian population censuses that were conducted in Epirus by the authorities of the respective states that placed the total Cham population figures to merely 54.000 Cham Albanians (maximum). The 54.000 is far bellow the 205.000 or even the 440.000. Can you please enlighten me why and how Miranda Vickers's figures give bloated population numbers by more than three times the real figures and in spite of reliable documents? Do you realize that all these dubious information about the population numbers are present in both the info-box at the beginning of the article, as well as in sections within the article? It is clear that the article is having problems with its neutrality because it presents sources that adopt nationalistic views by some political circles in Albania, and exaggerates the events by giving us bloated population numbers of the Cham Albanian population, and Vickers provided all these figures without a clear explanation of how they (the numbers) were acquired in the first place.
Resnjari, as I said above, and I repeat here: in the article there are dubious sources and data cited and presented which affect the article's neutrality. You can access these sources if you want, and check them to see the inaccuracies for yourself. To make things easier for you, Alexikoua has provided here to us a direct download of some of the Miranda Vickers's sources for everyone to read. The article's other sources, again by Vickers, need to be re-viewed as well and removed from the article if they do not meet Wikipedia's rules for reliable sources. The article, and especially the Demographics section really needs some cleanup to meet the Wikipedia's quality standards. --SilentResident (talk) 07:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Note: I don't know if this helps, but it relates to the problems I mentioned above; it came now to my notice that the article was once nominated for Good Article status, some years ago, but eventually was de-listed, due to problems similar to the ones I have mentioned/listed in my previous comments: it lacked (and still lacks from what we see, especially reliable ones) citations for contentious material and/or the material was and still likely to be challenged. For more info about this, please check: [7] --SilentResident (talk) 05:29, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
First off I am glad you have outlined the issues. Regarding the Good status article thing, it was removed way back because it lacked good sources and the history section was atrocious and POV pushing. That matter dates to way back before my interaction with the article. Me and Alexikoua in recent times after much hard work (as can be read by anyone in the talk pages –archive bit- resolved the history section and much of the rest with peer reviewed material). So I got a little concerned with your comments at first which I thought were in relation to the whole article. The bits you refer too were not touched by either one of us. They mainly relate to post-war numbers (not interwar or prior) and of course Miranda Vickers and a sentence in lede that that needs to be brought into line with the history section that was fixed through peer reviewed material.
Anyway the numbers are a complicated matter. If one was to take the Cham population as a whole (ethno-dialect group) but relating wholly to the Muslim population the large figure comes out. Usually the big figure encompasses (those indigenous to the Konispol area, Albanian side) plus those who went to Albania from Greece during the interwar period, also those who went away during the population exchange and plus those that fled during the Balkan wars to Albania and Turkey and those who fled and also those who migrated in the 19th century to what is now Turkey for economic/military service reasons. The total large number includes the descendant population as the Muslim Chams did have large families. This matters I have said here need to be outlined in the article (Tim Judah gives a summary of this process ). Enver in Albania encouraged people of all religions and ethnicities to have large families and is documented in scholarship. Turkey by default has had large population growth and the number of Chams is difficult to ascertain. All one can say with regards to Turkey is like the larger Albanian population, it’s sizable (the Berisha source is used for Turkey).
Regarding the lede sentence "in the aftermath of World War II the entire Muslim Cham population had to flee to Albania."
This one is easy and all that needs to be added for clarification after the words Muslim Cham population is (its wordy but needed): that remained in Greece after the population exchanges and lived there throughout the interwar period
About numbers in the article, numbers used by Vickers are given as “according to Vickers” or “pro-Albanian author” and also “Cham organizations” give so and so number. These are given as such in the article due to the person outlining them. A few areas these can be amended and replaced by non Vickers numbers when sources are located. Give me a bit of time. I am going to have to go through some books over the coming week. Vickers has on the whole been used for the post war situation of the Cham community however and in relation to their activities. Regarding that Vickers can be cited there. For example in the Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks talks about “Northern Epirus” being a “inseparable” part of Greece. Now that source can be removed because it says that though it stays in the end with the provisio that that bit is not mentioned in the inline citation or in the article itself. It only focuses on the content contained within that is not controversial. So for post war activities of the community Vickers can be used with caution and will need to be properly analysed after bits to do with numbers are dealt with. It may be that Vickers might be replaced completely. I will look through the sources though to find replacements where needed in relation to her. Also I encourage you to find good sources as well since you brought up the matter. As for Alexikoua's placement of links, i have fixed on the main page both formally dead links to Vickers Cham articles, a while back. Both can be accessed now.Resnjari (talk) 07:01, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
I am very glad and satisfied with your (very constructive) response on this matter and I am very happy to see every day that the people are so dedicated in working to improve the Balkan-related articles where possible despite their highly politicized background. Yes sure, take your time my friend, and I too will see what I can do in finding and providing sources from my part too, and for that I too will need a bit of a time, as I don't want to rush it out and to provide sources I haven't read/checked first. Thank you. --SilentResident (talk) 08:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Glad were both on the same page and i agree. Yes the post war stuff (really mainly post 1992 stuff) is in need of some attention. I was going through the history page of this article, Vickers was used due to the limitations of previous editors getting sources years ago. Much stuff has been published since from 4 or 5 years back when edits where made. There is a book by Pettifer and Vickers talking about post 2000 Albanian environment (The Albanian question book) which will be better suited as Pettifer also co wrote with her for the Cham association activities without the issues you have outlined. At uni, i'll get the books soon and have a read, not in the thinking mode about Chams at the moment. My thesis project for the next few days is my main concern. Anyway next week then my friend. Always of assistance to make things for the better. Best regards.Resnjari (talk) 08:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
@Resnjari: Can you point where exactly in Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks talks about “Northern Epirus being a inseparable part of Greece"? As I see you never raised such an issue in the correspondent talkpage.Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
I didn't, but other editors did raise the matter in the talkpage of that article, even if they became banned due to other activities much later. Regarding myself I am not concerned about content being in an article as long as controversial material contained within a source is not cited in the article for something that is contested or topically charged - if parts of the source, though not the whole is found to have issues. Nonetheless it deserves much scrutiny and in depth discussioon before that determination can be made. With Vickers, the two Cham articles will be discussed regarding most areas were cited and as i have said its merits for this that or the other as said in my above comments will be discussed. Anyway its for next week as Silent and i will have some peer reviewed material to go over and talk about and others too. Until then, that's all on my part for now. Best.Resnjari (talk) 13:28, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
To make things clear & for future reference: in Princess Argjiro article, one of the sources discussing the legend regarding Greeks does not talk about “Northern Epirus being a inseparable part of Greece". Academic material is the best option to be used per wp:HISTRS. If you have a specific objection you are welcome to address the issues in the relevant page.Alexikoua (talk) 15:39, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Ok, Thank you for that. I will hold you to that comment there for future reference when we go back to editing the Northern Epirus article not to far from now as i have much non-Albanian peer reviewed sources that line up with that policy you cite.Resnjari (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://books.google.al/books?id=4IK9AgAAQBAJ&pg=PR37&dq=orthodox+chams&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCgQ6AEwA2oVChMI0O3rtIiVyAIVC9IaCh199wzS#v=onepage&q=orthodox%20chams&f=false
  2. ^ Vickers, Miranda. "The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece". Defence Academy of the United Kingdom.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Cham Albanians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 04:39, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Cham Albanians. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 14:56, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cham_Albanians/Archive_6&oldid=1116736665"