Talk:Catharism/Archive 1

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There should be no problem in the merging of the two articles. But i do differ with JHK on the point that the word "albigensians" is purely geographical. True it is geographical insofar as it refers to the town of Albi, but it also refers to the crusade by the same name. Let not Pope Innocent's Magum Opus go completely unacknowledged.arunvenkat

Cathars are albigensians. Albigensians is a geographical name. Unless anyone objects, I'll combine both under Cathars, and fix links to Albigensians = Cathars. I'll leave this up for a day or so befor changing.JHK

So, what's the deal with the merge? They definitely need to be merged! Coontie 04:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC) I can merge the articles... Is there a how-to on how to do this properly?

ARE ALL CATHARI ALBIGENSIANS?

Cathar was a catch all term for heretics with ascetic and iconiclastic tendencies. Albigensians were Cathars in the Languedoc area. Patarines were Cathars in northern Italy. There were several branches of Humiliati one of which was purely Cathar. There was another branch of Cathars called the Apostolics. Patarines were Cathars but not all Cathars were Patarines. A branch of Humiliati were Cathars but not all Cathars were Humiliati. Albigensians were Cathars but not all Cathars were Albigensians. To put it another way: Greek Orthodoxy is Catholic, but not all Catholics are Greek Orthodox. Baptists are Protestants but not all Protestants are Baptist.

When most people refer to Albigensians they are referring to the later Cathari that were living close to the time of the massacre at Montsegur. Gibbons, Arnold, and others say that these late Albigensians came closer and closer to orthodox Christianity before their extermination. In fact they were so close to orthodoxy that remaining Albigensians merged with the Waldensians which left the Albigensian mark on both doctrine and customs of the Waldensians. The earlier Cathari were so infested with docetism and gnostism that they were sharp enemies with the early Waldensians. True there were still some very die hard gnostics at Montsegur but there were also many closer to orthodoxy and it is this group that forms an integral part in the evolution of Protestantism. There was much more going on here then Gnosticism and religiously biased history has skipped over that fact.Whether we like it or not Albigensianism strongly affected the history of religion and many of her marks are still in our denominations today. Many of their ideas were central in the Protestant reformation and the Roman Catholic Franciscans were carbon copies (in many respects) of the Albigensians and the Waldensians.

Until someone can come up with an universally accepted term for these later Cathari that dwelled in this specific area then I do not think we should merge this article out of existance.

Hopefully the Albigensian article can be cleaned up and added to. If time permits I will attempt this in the near future. ===CDW

I think that would work well. Note that in searches, there have been references to Cathar, Cathars, Catharist, Cathari... oy! -- April

- I do not think the Albigensian artical should be merged with the Cathar article. Please click on 3 below for more comment on this. C.D.W. **

Look, the distinction between Cath & Albi is in your head, really.  I looked in EB2006:
"From the 1140s the Cathari were an organized church with a hierarchy, a liturgy, and a system of doctrine. About 1149 the 
first established himself in the north of France; a few years later he established colleagues at Albi and in Lombardy."
That's all that means.  First Cathars settled in Albi.  Coontie 04:16, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Should we advertise books quite so blatantly?

I am all for including the ISBN numbers with books we list as further reading, or references... But including an image of the cover right after the listing? I dunno. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 00:46, Dec 12, 2003 (UTC)

The answer to the question is NO and I promptly removed that image. Nixdorf 17:40, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

removed from the article:

"["Cathar" derives from "cat"] which they were supposed to sexually abuse during their ceremonies"

That doesn't sound real. If you had a sect, would you name it after the animal you'd abuse ? :)

Anyway, if anybody get a good reference on "cat abuse" by the cathars, I'll put it back. Bogdan 11:11, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Cathar is widely known to have been derived from the greek Katharos for Pureness - and the Cathar were called that either reverentially or mockingly because of their supposed or actual purity. They usually called themselves simply "Christians" and many of their leaders were known as the Perfecti - the Perfect. They were accused of many forms of divergence and perversity by those who oppressed them, but in my many years of studying them and the oppressions against them, this (to my memory) is the first I have heard of any claims that they were called that because of "Cat abuse" —Kalki 20:13, 2003 Dec 20 (UTC)

The OED does not know that derivation at least. Probably the idea is just a joke by someone. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 20:51, Dec 20, 2003 (UTC)

I take that back. The story that Cathars are named after the cat ("cattus") is real. That is it is a genuine slander propagated against them at least in Germany. The slander mentioned by Malcolm Lambert in his book The Cathars appears to be that some opponents claimed that cathars "kissed a cat", but that it was only one form of a whole range of similar accusations, so in that context I would not say that even the more strongly put accusation is not totally implausible.

Thats exactly right, the Cathars were asscoiated with cats and animal abuse, more importantly, accused of satanic rituals, by the Roman Church. Its most likely this was just another of the overly ridiculous claims made against them, but it did stick and further propagated the Cathar name --drmike 12:32, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

The key here is though, that it is a calculated slander against them, and not an even semi-serious etymology. -- Jussi-Ville Heiskanen 07:21, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)

Completely agrre with above point. There is no serious etymology here --drmike 23:57, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a Latin phrase in the beginning of this article ("Hos nostra germania catharos appellat") and I think it would be helpful if someone translated it. -Branddobbe 02:25, Apr 26, 2004 (UTC)

Rough translation: "Those that are in Germany (or by Germans) called the cats." -- Euthydemos 02:14, July 15, 2004 (UTC)

Many modern-day Christians, as well as folks of other Faiths, have a fascination with Cathars, although, having read Wikipedia's story on the subject, I have difficulty understanding why, most particularly the exploration of their beliefs and practices... might there still be Cathars "around"? If so, I'd like to know what attracted them to the Faith, or what keeps them observing it....--XXtraPrince 18:31, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Noteworthy is that cats had been identified with heresy before, and thus a slander was still more effective.

Does this page need editing for neutrality?

I realize that the bulk of the article comes from the 1911 Britannica, which I wouldn't expect to be neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. But it's 2004 now, and the continual reference to "heresy", "heretics", and so on in the text grates on me. Is it worthwhile to attempt a rewrite in order to accomplish a little more neutrality on the subject? -- joXn 23:54, 2004 Aug 26 (UTC)

The argument above appears to have been rejected. Just in case, though, let me add my comment: the word "heresy" is like the word "rebel". If you win, you are a "saint" or "revolutionary hero". If you lose, you are a "heretic" or "rebel". There's no judgement implied of the beliefs involved; "heretic" in European history is a political term, meaning "on the outs with the Catholic Church." Jberkus 06:14, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes I think this a good idea - after all, the sects that the Roman Church regarded as heretics all regarded the Roman Church as an heretical sect - and I can't see any reason to favour one Christian sect over any other.

By the way, on the question of the etymology of the word Cathar - it has to be significant that the word was invented by the Roman Church - this makes the Greek etymology (pure) unlikely since the writers in the RC Church were consistently hostile. It is known on the other hand that Cathars in northern Europe were referred to as cat worshippers. It is also significant that kissing cats' backsides was one of the standard callumnies, like buggery, cited against enemies of the church. It was used against witches and the Templars. For more see the cathar section of my website www://languedoc-france.info.

IMO even if the 1911 Britannica was far from neutral on the subject of Christian heresies. The Cathars were so far from any contemporary Christian church today that it hasn't any importance today. Of course the article should be updated according to what conteporary historians think. But being French (and thus mainly under Catholic influence about my understanting of Chistianism) I believeve that the 1911 Britannica was much more balanced about the Cathars than any French source until -at least 1945- 1945. Ericd 22:49, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Stephen Shea's book (which I've added to the bibliography) spends a whole page discussing whether the term 'heresy' can be applied to Catharism, and concludes 'If the Cathars can't be called heretics, we should just delete the word [heretic] from our dictionaries. In the text I use the term in the sense of dissent, not depravity'. I agree with that. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I still do not think it is good enough for a modern Encyclopedia. Either properly define the term at the beginning, or (better) fix the text. Wizzy 09:42, Oct 27, 2004 (UTC)

I deleted the statement saying how terrible it was, due to the fact it didn't say WHO considered it terrible. Did commoners of the RC believe it was terrible? Northern French nobles? Yes, you'd probably be hard-pressed to find someone who didn't think it was terrible today, but we're also taught not to judge the past based on today's morals. I've just gotten into the habit of explaining why I delete something if I'm not re-wording it.--John Lynch 16:10, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I VOTE NOT TO MERGE ALBIGENSIAN ARTICLE

I do not think that the "Albigensian" article should me merged with that of "Cathar". When most people refer to Albigensians they are referring to the later branch of Cathars that was much less indoctrinated with Gnosticism. This later branch became more and more Christian in its beliefs as it neared its extinction by the Inquisition. As a result many of them merged with the Waldensians who paved the way for the protestant reformation. While this article is very rough and needs cleaned up I believe it is important that it remain as a separate article. I have some important historical information that I intend to add to it later. Not only encyclopedic and history references but also pertinant information I gathered while studying the Waldensian movement while I was in Piedmont Italy. I had access to many unpublished historical documents while there (which I photocopied). This March I am going to Germany to gather more information and later I intend to go to Languedoc France where the Cathar movement once thrived. Fredrick Coneybeare, Gibbons, Moreland, Giorgio Tourn, Emilio Comba, and especially Marvin Arnald are historians that can shed much unbiased light on these early sects.---------- C.D.W. January, 30, 2006

With any sensibly expressed reservation like those, no one will want to rush to merge these articles. We await C.D.W.'s edits with pleasure. --Wetman 04:24, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I will be returning from the Languedoc area of France in April at which time I will begin adding the abovementioned information.-------------C.D.W. February, 17, 2006

After returning from Europe I did indeed add much new material to the Albigensian article as I had promised. However when I checked on the article today everything I had added had been completely deleted. Evidently it was not neutral enough to someones satisfaction. When I figure out a way to "neutralize" truth then I will repair this article. Simply because something does not fit the mold of accepted history does not mean it is not true history. When I add this information in the future it will be accompanied by quotes from verifiable source material. I will return.---------------C.D.W. April, 18, 2006

Please remember to use sources that can be checked. Dominick ^(TALK) 18:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I would not be so concerned with any percieved etymological weakness in deciding that the term cathars is derived from cattus, instead I would look to the linguistic and metaphorical styles of the time for confirmation. So, we have the lamb of god, the sheppard with his flock of sheep the dove of peace etc all as being good. In contrast we have the little foxes, determined to prey upon the flock of the lord, the evil serpent and, the witches' cat. The point is that these symbols, already in use, would have been well known and understood by the contemporary audience, and so to aid the demonization of a purportedly heretical sect what better way than to associate them by name with an existing demonic image. The etymology may be weak but to my mind it does seem to fit with the way things were at the time. Smileyc 13:09, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I have something to add and forgive me if someone has already touched in on this topic. The Albigensiens were indeed the people of Albi, and the Cathars were a particular unaccepted religious order, believed to be within the framework of Christianity. It must be noted however, that not everyone in Albi, i.e.: the Albigensiens, were Cathars. Simply the majority of the people were Cathars, and "many families were part Cathar, part Catholic" (William Chester Jordan). Although Albi was the center of the Cathars in the entire region of Languedoc, with Raymond VI as Count, it would be difficult to determine that all of the Albigensiens in Albi were pure Cathars. Therefore, before merging the two groups, more speculation of the Albigensiens is needed. -Mr. T

Bogomils = Paulicians?

"Their doctrines have numerous resemblances to those of the Bogomils, and still more to those of the Paulicians, with whom they are also sometimes connected." The entry for Paulicians is a link to Bogomils. According to that entry, the terms are synonymous. --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And another query: We have In 1147, Pope Eugene III sent a legate to the affected district in order to arrest the progress of the heresy. The few isolated successes of The Abbot of Clairvaux could not obscure the poor results of this mission, and well shows the power of the sect in the south of France at that period. I've changed that to name St. Bernard of Clairvaux as the abbot at the time, but he went in 1145, and AFAIK not as a Papal legate. Is the date wrong, or do the 2 sentences refer to 2 different preachers? --Townmouse 22:03, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is doubtful from the evidence that the Bogomils have any connection with the Paulicians let alone that the Cathars are connected with the Paulicians. As far as is known there is not even much similarity of belief.

Ritual suicide?

The Voynich manuscript page refers to rumours or ritual assisted suicide among the Cathars, but I can't find any mention of it in the write up. Is there any historical basis to these rumors? Are they part of the Catholic conception of the sect?

More curious than anything else, but I imagine that accusations of such should probably fit into the suppression subsection

-J

This is just propaganda IMO. Ericd 11:44, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I completely agree, there were many accusations made against them but I myself cannot find any evidence of ritual suicide either here in London, or in Carcassone Bibliotheque. I think it should be removed as soon as possible, as it is true propaganda and adds nothing to the authenticity or accuracy of this page --drmike 12:35, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

==

I've just been reading a study of texts from a series of interrogations recorded by bishop Jaques Fournier (later Pope Benedict XII) while trying to gain evidence against local Cathars in Montaillou. There are texts of the testimonies of a number of named women who describe, in various manners and/or details, their feelings about certain elements of Catharism that they were being exposed to. It is not impossible to allow for the fact that the testimonies may be worded in an unflattering way against Cathars, due to duress; but even so we have several honest, common women explain how they felt that they had the spiritual strength and conviction to choose to undergo the proccess of consolamen and endura for themselves, and face starvation bravely - but when told that to properly consecrate their infant's soul (even if mortally sick already) they would be required to abstain from all feeding of the child, they refused.

The study I am reading translates and cites the original manuscript, and demonstrates several firsthand instances of affirmation that (at least in certain places and at certain times) it was considered a matter-of-fact point that people would be expected to allow themselves (or their infants) to starve to death after being recieved into the sect for "last rites" (so-to-speak). I plan to elaborate on the cited references on my own user page (as soon as I find the time for transcribing it, please be patient with me) for anyone to read. What I would like to determine is whether or not this case of contemporary references on more than one occasion to the practice of ritual "suicide" (self-starvation) is considered evidence enough to include an appropriate comment about it, rather than labeling the idea as strictly propaganda. -- Tenmiles 08:59, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Cathars and Troubadours and Women

Greetings. I have been researching women rulership in the midevial periode and came across the Cathars. In all my lititure reguarding women and Cathars they state women were held in far better standing, often leaders of their own local communities. And that Catharism transended the feudal system to include the peasents and nobility. The Troubeldors are cited as heavily influenced by Cathars, as was the ducal house of Poutier. According to my sources, women in the Aqutaine, largely because of the Cathar influence, were able to inherite and rule their own lands in precident to their children or other male relitives as would have been the case in Northern France under Salic. This tradition led to Eleanor of Aqutaine inheriting by right.

Can anyone comment on this? I have not seen the same kind of information in this particular artical and would welcome more discussion on women Cathars and the Aqutaine/Troubordor connection.Drachenfyre

Can we have troubadours spelt correctly please in the title? I've changed it myself as it looks ridiculous --drmike 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Neoplatonism

I changed a bit of the wording from "forms of Gnosticism, such as Neoplatonism", given that Neoplatonism does not reside inside Gnosticism, though they are certainly interwoven.

== Suppression --

This last sentence in the second paragraph in "Suppression" is faulty but I don't want to try to correct it because I'm not sure I'd get the meaning right:

"By the time Pope Innocent III came to power in 1198, resolved to suppress the Albigenses."

;Bear July 8, 2005 04:38 (UTC)

What of the History Channel presentaion recently

The History Channel aired a presentation called, Beyond the Da'Venci code or some such nonsense. The focus was on conspireacy theory. The History Channel mentioned that the Cathars worshiped in a cave with a pentacle carved into a rock face. Is there any truth to this and if so what does it mean for the Pagan community. (206.222.59.166)

Looking for some fuel to hate Christianity? TheUnforgiven 17:09, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

No truth that I know of. Even if true, I don't see what relevance it would have to neo-Pagans. Paul B 14:03, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Utter drivel. I think the name of the programme is enough to expose the content as being historically questionable. Valiant Son 17:51, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is drivel and should not be placed in an article such as this? There is no evidence of pentagrams, pentacles or anything of the sort. The programme didnt try to make its an authority but speculated and provided absolutely no evidence of any geometric shape. I think this should be removed.--drmike 12:39, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

A)Is it true? Probably not. It sounds like something someone dredged out of anti-Cathar propaganda and gave a little twist for modern tastes. I personally take anything I hear on one of the History Channel's specials with a bucketful of salt and a lot of personal research. B)What does it mean for modern Pagans? Nothing whatsoever. Whether or not the Cathars worshiped pentagrams carved in underground underground is completely immaterial to modern Neo-Pagans, as are the vast majority of things in this world and it's history, a fact which seems to annoy many of my co-religionists to no end. (wink)

Paganlady 20:57, 1 December 2005 (UTC)paganlady

bucketful of salt? add that to your personal research queue

Visigoths?

The small section about Visigoths seems a bit suspicious. Sources?

Seems like tosh to me. It was added by TheUnforgiven in unexplained replacement of his equally unsupported earlier claim that the persecution of Cathars was a synonym for attacking the Alans. Paul B 14:10, 1 Aug 2005 (UTC)

Toulouse was the centre of the Albigensian Crusade and it was there that the Visigoths had their first royal capital. I confused the issue with Vandals and Alans moving through, although the Alans most likely transported Asiatic religion into the area on their way to Africa. Where there were no Gypsies beforehand, they became common after that time. TheUnforgiven 09:44, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The Da Vinci code is mostly embellishment and sensationalism. It's main 'sources' are all crackpot fringe conspiracy theorists like the authors of 'Holy Blood and the Holy Grail'. If you want to know anything about the Cathars, i wouldn't advise learning about it from Dan Brown.

St. Dominic

We should add something about St. Dominic's involvement in the early preaching to and debating with the Cathars, etc. --Jim Henry | Talk 16:12, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Article about Bogomils is not correct. Bogomils and Paulians were not the same, at least according to Steven Runciman (The Medieval Manichee) and sources given by him.Yeti 00:43, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Latin without translation

For those of us without English public school education (vast majority of viewers of Wikipedia) what is "Hos nostra germania catharos appellat."? Excuse my plebidity Gwaka Lumpa 11:24, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

My latin isn't perfect, but I think that means "he names our germans those cathars." I must be making an error somewhere.68.79.115.153 03:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

After searching the article, that sentence is nowhere to be found, are you sure you're not looking at the wrong page or something? 68.79.115.153 03:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's there - and wikified for some reason. Paul B 13:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

A literal, word for word, translation of this Latin sentence is: these men our Germany Cathars call. An accurate, but free, translation would be: we in Germany call these people Cathars.Mystery Man 11:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Removed text

"*Christian Rosencreuz, according to some, may have been associated with an underground Cathar movement that hid from the Inquisition. However, this is highly unlikely because there is absolutely no evidence that the Cathar movement still existed by Rosencreuz' time, nor is there any concrete evidence that Rosencreuz existed at all."

This seems incredibly weaselly. Who associated him with the underground Cathar movement? - Ta bu shi da yu 02:54, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Misc Sources

Just added the word "Dualist" to the intro. Hope that's OK.

On the question of the origin of the word Cathar, I'd always held to the idea that it was from a German word for a cat rather than the Greek catharos usually cited. (The medieval Church was not in the habit of giving complimentary names to groups it regarded as enemies). But I recently noticed in "The Other God" a reference to the extraordinary fact that Mani's father belonged to a sect called the Catharioi. This may be a coincidence so I didn't change the text, but interesting, n'est pas. There's a proper reference somewhere on [this website].

There's also info on the bogomils on [this site] who seem to have been a distinct bunch from the Paulicians, albeit with much in common. Trollwatcher 19:23, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Heresy ?

Changed text to reflect the curious fact that the RC never seems to properly made its mind up whether Catharism was to be considered a Christian heresy or (however absurd the idea) a non-Christian religion. Cathar 16:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Was it France?

Please, take into account that what is currently the south of France was not France during the Cathars. It was Occitan land, a protectorate of the Kingdom of Aragon. The king of France, ruling in the north, united with the pope of Rome to exterminate them. Then and only then it became France (in 1273), but obviously when this happened there were no cathars left anymore. One million people were killed during the few centuries the crusade lasted.

Modern Cathar Church

I added the link to the Assembly of Good Christians, which is a neo-Cathar movement. I have tried to get more information regarding this church but outside of their own website I failed to find anything. I did email the church at the address provided but they did not respond to me.

If anyone here is able to find out more and post it here please do so. Piercetp

Do not hold your breath waiting on the Assembly of Good Christians to respond to your mail. I wrote for over a year and never got a response. Finally I wrote a letter about my research into Catharism and I was told not to write back that my story was full of "holes" whatever they meant by that. I get the inpression that this is a small Internet group of teens that want to revive something esoteric. If you want to find a group that genuinely is trying to revive true Catharism then check out Blessed Iohann (Beato Yohanne) from Russia. He has a very large following and has been called the King of Cathars. C.W.

It seems to be a hoax based on the recent edits. Is there more information that is verifiable? Dominick ^(TALK) 21:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I got this in the email.

While we differ in many things, we hold in common that you are an honest man. C W is a spiritual firefly. We have full records and believe in complete transperancy. He has been deleting as he threatened, and then retracted, all references and links to the AGC. We are happy to take this matter up in the wikipedia mediation process or with Mr. Jimmy Wales. May we ask your advice? Yours in Service,

Like I said here, AGC claims to be a Cather Church are unverifiable. It smacked even more to be a web invention. Dominick ^(TALK) 10:22, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

P.PS. You take it up with whomever you want. Dominick ^(TALK) 10:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

In the course of over a year I made several unsuccessful attempts to contact the Assembly of Good Christians. I have since met many others who have had the same difficulty. One individual related to me that he went to Canada to meet with them and no one was there to greet him at the airport. He was never able to attend or locate any of the alledged Cathar church meetings. Very strange to say the least. I was finally able to get a response to my inquiry when I informed them I was writing a book on Church history and wished to meet with them to discuss their modern Cathar denomination. I received back a reply that asked me not to write again and that my "story was full of holes" (?) They forwarded my letter to a colleague of mine which had written them and the contents of my letter had been altered and added to (for some odd reason that served no apparent purpose whatsoever). I find the reference to Dr. W as a "spiritual firefly" hilarious since they apparently have had no meaningful comunications with anyone wherein they could honestly label anyones persona or question their credentials. I must say, however, that they must possess remarkable extrasensory gifts in order to know it was indeed Dr. W that deleted the link to their web site. I fail to understand why that would disturb them since they have no intention of ever replying to any inquiries any way. It seems a waste of space to list such a link.

There is a certain Yohanne from Russia that I have interviewed that seems very knowledegable and amicable and which would be more profitable to investigate as opposed to other fly -by-night uninformed Cathar wanna be's. He claims to be leader of a large group of modern Cathari, however, I have been unable to find much reference to Cathari on his web site. It is claimed he has an unbroken succession of consolamentum which of course would be impossible to prove or disprove. He is very interesting and you can find his web site at: http://en.iohann.org/index.html and http://holygrail.ru/page214/ and http://holygrail.ru/page101/269/

C.W.

References to personal names have been abreviated for public anonymity. I hope this is acceptable.

CW My apologies for not redacting them myself. Perhaps you may consider a wikipedia account to make this easier. I am certain in my check that they are indeed a hoax group. Dominick ^(TALK) 21:40, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be some justifiable questions concerning the authenticity and the behavior of the abovementioned group (or person). Therefore until the alledged AGC comes forth with some verifiable evidence that their (or his) web site is NOT a hoax it would seem a ludicrous gesture to leave the AGC link on the Cathar site. Wikipedia is an educational tool, not a platform for advertising spurious personal projects. CW

I am dissapointed to find that AGC is a ficticious group since I found much of what they stated on their website to be interesting. Some of their alleged views did seem a bit odd... for instance they stated that 90% of their members did not drive yet most of them owned computers. Anyway thanks for checking the facts.

As far as Blessed Iohann goes, I did have a look at the website. Sounds very interesting. If this guy is really on the level than maybe someone can put up an article about him. Piercetp 06:20, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I too was VERY disapointed since I found the AGC web site to initially seem so legitimate. You have to admit that at first glance they appear to be the most sincere on the Internet. Then I made a simple inquiry and was immediately shot down for no apparent reason. Further investigation by myself and others produced info that didn't look too promising for AGC legitimacy. Subsequent rude and evasive behavior and the fact that none of their(or his) churches can ever be located anywhere made the final verdict quite grim indeed. I guess that the proverbial looks CAN be deceiving.

On the other hand if somehow we have made a incorrect judgement I would feel absolutley HORRIBLE. The last thing I would ever want to do is hurt another person who is on a legitimate spiritual journey. Even if there were but a handful of true AGC members I would attempt to show them utmost respect. However I have little patience for those that use religion to further personal schemes. I would feel so much more comfortable if they would at least attempt to communicate with someone.

I think it would be wonderful to submit an article about Iohanne. He is indeed an interesting person and also very friendly as well.

CW

BEWARE OF ASSEMBLIES OF GOOD CHRISTIANS

I just received a most disturbing phone call.

After I wrote the last paragraph above I began to really feel bad thinking of the possibility that the Assembly of Good Christians (hereafter called AGC) might actually be a legit group. Against my better judgement I wrote them a letter and said I would do all I could to have any derogatory remarks made on the talk forum of Wikipedia about the AGC removed if they would only attempt to communicate with us and verify their validity. Later this evening while I was at the grocery store my wife recieved a very strange telephone call. When I came home she was as white as a sheet and trembling with fear. As she began relating the strangness of the call she received the telephone rang again. I answered and a very strange voice reminiscent of Vincent Price whispered defiantly to me asking if I knew who he was. He announced he was from the Assembly of Good Christians. He went on to tell me he knew ALL about me, my whole past, and then proceeded to read to me the contents of various private emails I have sent in the Last two years.. He not only knew the contents of these letters but also when they were written and who they were written to. He asked me if I had heard of Security Inc. the largest most powerful company in the world which he was in good graces with. He continued to quote my mail contents and suddenly I realised IT WAS PACKED FULL OF INTERPOLATIONS and damaging things that I had never written mixed in very convincingly smooth with many things I HAD written. He began to name various colleagues I had associated with in the past and let me know that he had damaged my reputation with them. He let me know he had severely damaged a relationship with a dear friend in Maine and assured me that my friend was not going to proceed with a certain project we had planned together. He named numerous colleagues of mine by name. He told me we had underestimated the AGC. He said they were more powerful then we were and that he had more money then I had and that I could not stand against him and the AGC. On several occasions when I would try to speak he would scream' "BE SILENT!" He said he knew everything about me. He proceeded to tell me that he had a deal for me. Someone was going to come to my house with an offer. They were going to offer me a place to go that was safe. I asked if he was threatening me. He continued saying they were going to offer me a place to go that was safe. I told him not to threaten my life that I would expose them nationally and I hung up on him. About a half hour later the phone rang again. His voice sounded completely different this time as he hissed threateningly into the telephone. He told me I had made the wrong decision not to take him up on his offer . He said I had come up against a group more powerful then I could imagine and that I would be wise to make things right with the Good God because both I and my family would soon be going to meet him. He told me I had come up against the wrong group of people and that I would pay for that with my life. He told me my life was now worth nothing, that I should get things set in order before I am taken out. I hung up the phone.

Although this man was aware of the contents of my Internet mail he was NOT aware of the reasons for them. I am writing a book on Church History and another book on Modern Cults in America as well as gathering material for a television program that I will appear on a segment of which is an expose on cults. What he THOUGHT were inquiries of interest in these cultic groups were actually information I was gathering on an expose of them. WOW did he ever provide me with a load of interesting material! (My last televised expose in 1996 was seen nationally and actually put a man by the name of Wendal Rogers in Farmersville Louisiana in prison for over seven years.) I felt obligated to relate this information to everyone that may be interested in contacting this group. They are certainly cultic and not GOOD Christians in any sense of the word. In the last two years of interviewing and investigating different cults this is the first time my life has been threatened. I just returned from Europe where I met various cult leaders in Germany, France, Holland, and Switzerland and I also met with a lot of genuine Christians and these experiences have helped fine tune my discernment between the two. If anyone reading this has had any similiar threats from the Assembly of Good Christians please contact me. I need as many people as I can that have had bad experiences with this group or others like it to contact me. Simply go to www.uSpeakOUT.com and look up "Assembly of Good Christians and Other Dangerous Non Christian Cults". It is posted by FireSurfer (me). There is info there on how to contact me. Simply leave a message for Dr. Ward.

Although the types of things that I have related are anything but pleasant I feel an obligation to make anyone that has inquired, commented on, or criticised the AGC aware of the potential possibility of receiving threats from them. I further suggest we tack onto this article about "Cathars" a warning for people inexperienced with cultic behavior to thoroughly investigate any esoteric sounding group before getting involved. There is a REASON such people are so far distanced from the mainstream denominations. Be very careful...you may end up paying more then you gambeled for. CW

Jeez thats scarey. And I though the Scientologists were scarey. What you described is frightening. Piercetp 07:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I penetrated the Scientologists for over two years. I even took courses and pretended going into reveri while gathering info on them. THEY never caught me. The AGC did. Now THATS scary! CW

Go to www.uSpeakOut.com and look for all posts by FireSurfer on "AP9 companies Home Works Plus Scam." These scams are working with well known companies like Lowes, Sears, etc and illegally scamming people. I got a threat from them when I began recruiting for that class action law suit. Although not a religious institution they use many of the techniques that Cult groups do. You aren't safe ANYWHERE. CW

      Who thats weird.youwrite to thim to make peaece
       causee you feel sorry for them and they turn on
      you. dont sooundlike good christian to me

 Need an attorney? I will offer the services of our firm gratis. I despise these operations. Let me know how to contact you.

Don6

No thank you. We have an attourney in the family that has a large firm not far from us. He handles everything for us gratis. However if I ever make him mad I'll call you :) Right now I want to forget this handful of apparently disturbed individuals and get on with the business of cleaning uo this article. Should we leave the lineage thing on? The lineage was extiguished in the Inquistion so I don't see much point now of discussing it. Maybe we should just add the part about the consolamentum serving a fourfold purpose in the paragraph above that already deals with the consolamentum. What do you think? CW

Don't Add rows of equal signs please

It messes up the formatting and the ToC. Dominick ^(TALK) 12:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't know. Thanks for the tip.

Origins

I changed the dates given for the emergence of the Cathars to the 12th century, as this is in line with accepted historical thought. The first mention of the Cathars is form 1143 where Cathars were burned in Cologne and later Bonn. These were identified by churchmen at time as being new heresies.

Despite one of the sources talking of cathar activity in the 11th century in France, this is accepted now to be a different heresy, that in fact the dualist elements olny arrived to Europe via the Balkans in the 1140s. In some catholic sources the Cathars have been portrayed as having been in the areas most severly affected for hundreds of years, however the reality is Cathar teaching probably only reached Languedoc in the 1160s, and then errupted prompting the Albigensian crusade. I would reccomend the Origins part of the text is seriously reworked, as this referrs to heresies not derieved from the Eastern Bogomil heresy. Fredheir 20:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)