Talk:Buffalo mozzarella/Archive 1

Archive 1

Acidification

I changed the word "Adification" to "Acidification" in the processes page, and cleaned up the International Marketing paragraph to improve readability.--Legomancer 18:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

PDO

Please add the details of PDO requirements for this cheese etc if you can. 69.87.199.136 20:21, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Copyright problems

A substantial portion of the History section is copied verbatim from another website. -- Beland (talk) 11:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• Please take a look at the new version.

The Move

The Article is about buffalo mozzarella generally, but the old title was "Mozzarella di Bufala Campana". Mozzarella di Bufala Campana is a trademarked DOC type of buffalo mozzarella, so I Moved the article to reflect its generality. I also added cites to nearly every factual assertion, but IMHO there are still a few cites lacking. I also added new content and moved stuff around to make the piece read more comfortably. If would be helpful if someone who is fluent in Italian - I most definitely am not - would fix my interpretation of "campana". Stwiso (talk) 07:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations

I would like the person who just revised this article to provide the reasons behind the edits, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stwiso (talk • contribs) 15:48, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

mostly it was to go along with Wikipedia:Citing sources.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 16:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

what is the reason for this edit? Stwiso (talk) 19:03, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

In Italy, the cheese is produced in areas ranging from north of Rome in Lazio to Paestum in Campania, and there is a production area in near Foggia, Puglia.

maybe just deleting the link and putting {{fact}} would have been better, but http://www.mozzarelladop.it/ is not a document that can be used as a source to verify the statement. even if the information is somewhere in the website, it's not at the location given in the link, and [there is no way to cite a particular location because the whole website is in flash. maybe it's a link that could be in the external links list.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 21:13, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

in contrast, this is a good source:

Rankin, Scott A. (2006). "Mozzarella and Scamorza Cheese". In Yiu H. Hui (ed.). Handbook of food science, technology, and engineering. Washington, D.C.: Taylor and Francis. pp. M1 150-2. ISBN 0-8493-9849-5. OCLC 60550736. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 21:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

please provide a cite to the Wikipedia rule that supports this statement, thanks: "but ... is not a document that can be used as a source to verify the statement. even if the information is somewhere in the website ... Stwiso (talk) 19:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

see Wikipedia:Citing sources.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 20:21, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I just read Wikipedia:Citing sources, but I found nothing that pertains to the topic of this conversation. I apologize in advance if I overlooked it.Stwiso (talk) 21:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think I was over-reacting. I asked for some help with how to cite this website as a source (Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Citing_a_flash_website) and adapted it from there. If you can help me find where in the website the rest of the sources are coming from, I can finish them off.  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 04:57, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like there's only one left. Where does "In Italy, the cheese is produced in areas ranging from north of Rome in Lazio to Paestum in Campania, and there is a production area in near Foggia, Puglia." come from in http://www.mozzarelladop.it?  —Chris Capoccia ^T⁄_C 05:01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

This is the only cite that I can find for this assertion, apart from a plethora of vendor sites, none of which I ever would rely on. My cite is to a definitve source, but which is in FLASH, which is arguably problematic, as you have noted. My cite is to a tab within the website, the tab being named "I Prodotti". That tab shows a map of the production areas, and the map supports my factual assertion. I think that the cite provides the reader with enough information upon which to make an informed judgment or to conduct further research. But I am open to suggestions regarding a better approach to the citation. fyi thanks for your help - this Article's current form is a quantum leap above the way I left it, pre your input.Stwiso (talk) 06:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations for production zone

I started to do some work on this, but honestly I don’t have time to pursue it. Perhaps what follows may be useful.

The official production zone for the PDO (DOP) cheese is specified in the disciplinare (production regulations) which is available in pdf format from http://www.mozzarelladop.it/pdf/disciplinare.pdf. (Note, I have only glanced quickly at the file and haven’t checked whether it is the latest version.) The pdf includes at least two documents:

1. Decreto del Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri (Prime ministerial decree), 10 May 1993: Riconoscimento della denominazione di origine del formaggio «Mozzarella di bufala campana».
   Published in the Gazzetta Ufficiale della Repubblica Italiana on 17 September 1993.
2. A request to the EU authorities to modify the production regulations in such a way as to extend the production zone.

The 1993 decree established the DO (Denominazione di origine) status of the cheese under Italian law and abrogated (see Art. 5) a previous presidential decree of 28 September 1979. The 1979 decree had recognized ‘Mozzarella di Bufala’ as a cheese of denominazione tipica (‘typical designation’) [see http://www.isa.cnr.it/PRODTIP/PRODOTTI/ITA/0FCM.HTM], an inferior class to DO. In 1993 the production zone was specified as:

Campania

Province of Benevento: communes of Limatola, Dugenta, Amorosi.

Province of Caserta: the entire territory.

Province of Naples: communes of Acerra, Giugliano in Campania, Pozzuoli, Qualiano.

Province of Salerno: the entire territory.

Lazio

Province of Frosinone: communes ofAmaseno, Giuliano di Roma, Villa Santo Stefano, Castro dei Volsci, Pofi, Ceccano, Frosinone, Ferentino, Morolo, Alatri, Castrocielo, Ceprano, Roccasecca.

Province of Latina: communes of Cisterna di Latina, Fondi, Lenola, Latina, Maenza, Minturno, Monte San Biagio, Pontinia, Priverno, Prossedi, Roccagorga, Roccasecca dei Volsci, Sabaudia, San Felice Circeo, Sermoneta, Sezze, Sonnino, Sperlonga, Terracina, Aprilia.

Province of Rome: communes of Anzio, Ardea, Nettuno, Pomezia, Rome, Monterotondo.

In 1996 the Italian D.O. became (like all the other existing cheese-related Italian D.O.s) a PDO recoginized under EU law.

The second document extends the production zone to include:

Lazio

Province of Latina: commune of Santi Cosma e Damiano

Campania

Province of Naples: communes of Arzano, Cardito, Frattamaggiore, Frattaminore, Mugnano di Napoli

Molise

Province of Isernia: commune of Venafro

Puglia

Province of Foggia: communes of Manfredonia, Lesina, Poggio Imperiale plus parts of the communes of Cerignola, Foggia, Lucera, Torremaggiore, Apricena, Sannicandro Garganico, Cagnano Varano, San Giovanni Rotondo, San Marco in Lamis

Whether the provisions of the latter document have come into force yet is marginally doubtful. I think think the procedure is that it will have been published in the Official Gazzette of the EU and then—in the absence of objections—come into law immediately. One could check that out. But in this instance my guess would be that the Consorzio is not jumping the gun, and that it has come into force. The EU site is phenomenally user-hostile, but there are three relevant documents linked from this page. The third one, dating from 2005, gives a rather more precise definition of the extended production area. It’s authenticated by the application of a rubber stamp bearing the star of Italy. Blurred—no doubt the clerk was in a hurry—but perhaps that of mipaaf, the Italian Ministry of Agriculture.

—Ian Spackman (talk) 12:45, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Does this EU ruling resolve the issue of the status of Bufala di mozzarella Campana? http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:031:0031:0031:EN:PDF

I found it using DOOR on the Comission's site. http://ec.europa.eu/agriculture/quality/door/registeredName.html?denominationId=474 Stwiso (talk) 19:14, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Good find! Yes, as far as I can see that means that the revised regulation (and in particular the extended production zone) came into force on 25 February. —Ian Spackman (talk) 09:51, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

War's Impact on Agronomy

In one of the edits that I added, I quote the website of a well-respected American/Italian merchant who operates Italain food product shops in California, at which I am a continual customer. His web site says that, in WWII, in Italy, the retreating German army slaughtered and consumed many water buffaloes. This is not a claim by an historian, nor can I find on the internet any such claim by an historian. But, the claim has intuitive appeal, and, indeed, many Campanians have told me the same thing when I have visited. I suspect that much can be learned fron this narrow topic, as well as from the broader topic of the agronomical impact of WWII, and from the metatopic of the impact of war on agrononmy. If you write it, I will read it (if it already is out there, thanks for the link).Stwiso (talk) 06:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Nutrition

I cannot reproduce the stats of the current version. All the stats that I have found (from FAO for example) diverge significantly from those quoted in the current version. What is your source? Thanks. Stwiso (talk) 04:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I will the delete the current version and replace it with FAO, or other reliable sources, in a month, absent confirmnation that the current version is a reliable cite.Stwiso (talk) 04:19, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

DO vs. DOC

Denominazione di Origine Controllata (DOC) is the term used to legally define moderately (and extremely) posh Italian wines. It is sometimes also applied to cheeses, but as far as I have been able to tell, rather erroneously. Denominazione di Origine (D.O.) is probably the more accurate term fro cheese. The legislation was enacted following the Stresa Conference of 1950ish: see List of Italian PDO cheeses. (Oh, and DO/DOC-denominated cheeses fall/fell under Italian legislation. The equivalent EU designation is PDO.) —Ian Spackman (talk) 12:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Dioxin

We ought to mention the dioxin scandal of early 2008. It was a fall-out from the Neapolitan waste-disposal crisis: the Camorra (Neapolitan Mafia) were making money by dumping imported toxic wastes which somehow leached into the buffaloes’ feedstuffs—and thence into your favourite pizza! It was covered on the BBC website, http://news.bbc.co.uk. I think the Italian article on Mozzarella di Bufala Campana links an English language text on the subject from an American newspaper, too. —Ian Spackman (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia's historiography maxims point, I believe correctly, in the direction of not doing this until the dust (or news or dioxin) has settled. Wikipedia:Recentism A not so recent news report says that the EU is "entirely happy" with Italy's proactive response to the problem and that the EU is permitting Italy handle it. It would be unfair to paint bad ink on a good product where the adverse citations are the result of facts that started becoming antiquated 6 months ago. If you have contradictory citations, this Discussion will take a look.
  • "In a news conference, E.U. health spokesperson, Nina Papadoulaki, stated that the commission was entirely happy with the measures undertaken by the Italian government and that they would be maintaining continuous involvement authorities in Italy to ensure the issue does not arise again. Papadoulaki stated that with reports they had received from Italy that day, there was no need for further intervention at an E.U. level". http://www.eurowatch.org.uk/28032008-215.htm (March 28, 2008) Stwiso (talk) 04:03, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

References

Apologies

Being in a hurry I failed to preface my comments above: I should have congratulated the authors who are currently taking the subject seriously and improving the article so much. I do now. —Ian Spackman (talk) 13:37, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Adding a Uses section

I don't have time right now to solve the puzzle regarding the defect in the cite. I will do it tonight. Sorry. Stwiso (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was support for move.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:54, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Mozzarella di Bufala (buffalo mozzarella) → buffalo mozzarella — The current title is a needlessly complicated mix of Italian and English. The naming conventions are clear about the need to use concise, in English and make linking intuitive. The current title facilitates none of these requirements. — Peter ^Isotalo 20:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Mozzarella di Bufala is sometimes used in English language texts, but in my experience it is referred to much more commonly as buffalo mozzarella, and so this should be the title. Knepflerle (talk) 20:43, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). — Lincolnite (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
• "Buffalo Mozzarella" gets my vote, see my Comment below.Stwiso (talk) 23:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
• Weak support move to buffalo mozzarella Too close to call according to my Google web, news, books and scholar searches. So rename to Mozzarella di Bufala per WP:UE#Divided usage. But either would be a distinct improvement over the current. I would be happier with any of Mozzarella di Bufala, mozzarella di bufala or buffalo mozzarella. The Italian phrase is frequently capitalised when using sentence case; the English translation, never or virtually never as far as I can see. --Rogerb67 (talk) 01:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  Just looked at dictionaries and encyclopedias; not a lot of evidence but more citations for buffalo mozzarella so I lean towards that now. --Rogerb67 (talk) 01:28, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

  Just a reminder: the article isn't about a type of Italian cheese, but a cheese produced by a specific type of animal. There is really not much point in calling buffalo mozzarella from Thailand or the United States by an Italian term. Peter ^Isotalo 09:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

  Where it comes from isn't really important; it's how it's referred to in English. If the normal English term for a Thai product is an Italian phrase, so be it. See for example cor anglais, which is neither French nor a horn. Anyway, I have plumped for the English term now, because that is more common in dictionaries. --Rogerb67 (talk) 23:21, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

Until a few minutes ago, my hunch was that "mozzarella di bufala" needed to remain in the title because my anecdotal evidence is that English speakers who have eaten the cheese have seen it on menus just as "mozzarella di bufala". In fact many of my American friends rave about the mozzareella di bufala they have had in restaurants - although they all confess that it never occurred to them that the milk is buffalo and that buffaloes can actually be milked. As an utterly (deliberate pun) non-scientific test of my hunch, I just Goggled "pizza buffalo mozzarella" and "pizza mozzarella di buffalo" to see whether in a culinary context there would be any significant divergence in hits, and there was none. I also Googled "buffalo mozzarella" and this article is first. Googling "mozzarella di bufala" gives this article as the second hit. So, the title makes no diference to a search engine.

As far as I know, WP-English prefers an English term over its non-English equvilant assuming that one exists. In this instance "buffalo mozzeralla" certainly does exist. "Buffalo mozzeralla" seemed to me to the the accepted term for it in serious publications in English, by FAO for example, as well as on the websites of producers of the cheese outside of Italy. A third reason to change the title is some searchers will use the WP engine, which is not forgiving. I doubt that any of those searchers will come up with "Mozzarella di Bufala (Buffalo Mozzarella)" as the search term that works.

So I vote for "Buffalo Mozzerella", good suggestion.Stwiso (talk) 23:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Import into the US

Yesterday, I stumbled upon Mozarella di Bufala di Campana (with the DOP logo) at my local specialty store in the US. They say that they fly it in once per week, so, if any of my fellow Americani can find it, this would be an opportunity to test whether, for long distance imports, the Campanian folk-edict "eat within 2 days" is true —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stwiso (talk • contribs) 06:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)