Talk:Big Dipper

Odin's Wain

In Neil Gaiman's American Gods, a character, Zorya Polunochnaya says it is also named Odin's Wain. If someone has a 'better' reference, maybe we should add it to the article. bogdan 20:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Odin, the AllFather of Norse Mythology, was often said to travel around his world in a wagon. Going from house to house and teaching his people his legacy - mainly lessons of hospitality, life, and how to worship the Gods. He often appeared as an old vagabound with a wide-brimmed hat and gray hair that covered the eye-socket.

Japanese Hokuto

What, does Hokuto suck enough balls to be interesting for this article? Evertype 22:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I clarified that portion of Japanese--it means northern dipper, and is a name common to Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. --ian (talk) 16:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Hokuto means northern or north pointing where as shichi is the number 7 (for the 7 stars) and sei means star. So literally, it would be the 7 northern stars or northern 7 stars. When translated into English, the word dipper is used.

The kanji characters are the same in both Chinese and Japanese however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbenton (talk • contribs) 09:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Starry Plough

First, a "thank you" to Dermo69 for adding the info. I have modified the contribution and feel that I should explain why.

• I have moved it up in the article to be with the other national/ethnic entries.
• I changed "big dipper" to "figure" so as not to imply that "big dipper" is the real name.
• I changed the link from "Starry Plough" which leads to a disambiguation page, to "Starry Plough (flag)" which gets directly to the heart of the matter. I also boldfaced it.
• I dropped the links to "republicanism," "socialism," "John Connoly," and the "ICA" as inappropriate for this page. Note that they are all linked from the "Starry Plough (flag)" page.

Thanks again for the addition. B00P 05:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, that's better.Thanks Dermo69

---

The previous discussion points out that there is already a direct link to the "Starry Plough (flag)" article which has been in place for three years. There is no need to clutter up this page with yet another copy. B00P (talk) 10:59, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Entry Order

Having just reverted the order of entries to "Plough," then "Big Dipper" from what was, and with some justice, called a more logical order, I feel it necessary to explain why.

When I wrote the article, it replaced previous pages on both the Plough and the Big Dipper. As there are more North Americans than Britons, and being one of the former, myself, I naturally picked "Big Dipper" as the title. This being the case, it seemed only right that "Plough" should come first.

1. Having done a search on "Plough" and seeing the title "Big Dipper," a reader would feel reassured that he was at the correct article if the boldfaced "Plough" was at the beginning of the article.
2. I did not want to leave the impression that "Big Dipper" is the real name, which the British, due to some quaint whim, call "The Plough."
3. Historically, "The Plough" is the older name, which is another reason to give it pride of place.

Thus while I appreciate the thought behind changing the order, it seems best to leave it as it was. B00P 01:16, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

OK then - I thought that the paragraph that dealt directly with the article title should logically come first, but I don't feel any strong impulse to argue. But I was quite attached to my para breaks - British, N European, Modern American - and shouldn't the pre-contact American para be merged with or immediately preceding/following the Modern American? (Interesting that some of the American Aboriginal peoples also called it the Bear, but referring only to the four stars of the "scoop" of the Dipper).

Hardly worth taking a canopener to the article over this, I know, as long as all the facts are accessible.

Just reread this, and realized that I should have mentioned that I followed the anonymous interloquitor's paragraph advice way back when.B00P (talk) 21:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

12 Nov 2006 Revert

There was a recent flurry of changes made to the article. These included improvements, vandalism (and reverts), errors, and others working at cross purposes. As it was impossible to disentagle them, I have reverted to an earlier stage and then restored the valid additions. Voidvector's input was helpful in clarifying the matter. B00P 14:10, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

the same correct word for the constellation is Major Ursa

so we need for Big Dipper a Redirect on Mayor Ursa 85.8.124.246 13:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The Big Dipper is a *part* of Ursa Major (not Major Ursa) Nik42 02:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Same in German. Ursa Maior = Großer Bär, Großer Wagen is only a part of Ursa Maior. Only 7 (ok 8 since Mizar/Alkor are 2 stars) stars form the Plough/Großer Wagen, Ursa Maior are more than 20 stars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BangOlafson (talk • contribs) 21:05, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

---

It is important, when reporting non-English terms for the Big Dipper/Plough, not to confuse them with names for Ursa Major as a whole. I have just deleted German, Russian, and French names meaning "Great Bear." Editors are encouraged to expand the Ursa Major article with such information. B00P (talk) 23:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Native Americans

A widespread American Indian figuration had the bowl as a giraffe. Some groups considered the handle to be three cubs following their mother, while others pictured three hunters tracking the giraffe.

A giraffe? Giraffes aren't native to North America, so how could they picture it as a giraffe? Nik42 06:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just read that and thought the same thing. I am gonna remove that. WookMuff 08:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I was about to remove it when I realised it was probably vandalism changing bear to giraffe. I went to the linked article and found that indeed the big dipper is seen as a bear in at least some native american cultures. WookMuff 08:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Coffin followed by three mourning women

I remember a visit to a planetarium, where the lecturer said that Arabian mythology calls the big dipper coffin followed by 3 mourning women, because it moves across the night sky quadrangle-first. Can anybody confirm this name? Dr. Hok 15:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Not that exactly, but there is this:

The Arabians saw a coffin and mourners in this constellation. The coffin is formed by the four stars of the dipper's cup; the mourners, sons of the deceased, are the three stars in the handle. The three stars here are following the North Star seeking vegeance, for it is that star that killed their father.

If you do a google search for "big dipper coffin" (without quotation marks) you'll find a lot more. Gh5046 (talk) 22:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Six or seven stars?

Part of the article under the 'See Also' section refers to there being only six stars in the Big Dipper, with Alkaid being in another constellation. This contradicts the image at the start of the article. Can someone with more knowledge than me verify what is correct and alter as appropriate? Joldy 19:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Alkaid is eta Ursa Majoris, and so certainly in the same "constellation". The Big Dipper is merely an "asterism", but even then I've never seen any definition other than the all seven stars. Deleted text:

"It is important to note that the Big Dipper only contains 6 stars. There is a 7th star (Alkaid) that sometimes looks like it is part of the Big Dipper, but it is actually part of another star constellation."

gparker 08:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot believe that we're even talking whether there are 6 or 7 stars.

Just look at the Chinese name 北斗七星, first discussed in 475BCE as this article states. The [七] is 7 in both Chinese and Japanese. So if there were 7 stars in 475BCE... why did one disappear and where did it go? (* LOL *) Just my 2 cents worth. This shouldn't even be a discussion starter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbenton (talk • contribs) 09:33, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Otava

Once again, I have removed the line, "In modern Finnish, Otava is also known as the name of a Finnish publishing house (see: Otava)."

I point out to our contributor that this is English Wikipedia, and this information - with yet a second link - is of no value to the article. If you wish to have your firm better known, pay for an advertisement. B00P (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The Big Dipper Etymology

It is essential to note that the term Big Dipper is a deformation to the Arabic name Ad-Dibb Al-Akbar meaning the Big Bear. Al-Kaid is also Arabic meaning the LEADER. The Arab contribution in astronomy is clear, note the names of the Orion constellation stars. Noureddine (talk) 13:35, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's not quite "essential," as it might not be so. While there's no question that the majority of Proper Names for stars are Arabic (or garbled Arabic), that does not prove anything in this particular case, although it might certainly be so. Now as the medieval Arabic picturing of the Bear was the same as both Ptolemy's and ours, it's odd that the name for the whole figure would be applied to just a part of it, but odder things have, indeed, happened. Therefore I am noting your point in the article.

What's really peculiar is the name for η UMa. One might expect the star delineating the Bear's nose to be designated "The Leader," not the one at the tip of the tail. (It probably has to do with the brightness of the star, not its location.) B00P (talk) 06:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. Maybe it is advisable to talk about Orion's stars in the Orion article but please allow me to list the following translations: BetelGeuse or Beetlejuice is Beit-Ul-Kaws, the bow's house. Al-Nitaq means the arrow outfit or the Strap. Al-Rigel means the Leg. Al-Saiph means the Sword. Al-Mintaqa is the tail of the leather belt. Meissa and Bellatrix are also Arabic specific hunting outfit vocabulary but the question is why the Arabic names survived to modern days astronomy and could that be compared to the medical and chemical vocabulary survival?

Noureddine (talk) 15:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

The proper place for the etymology of star names is within the articles on the individual stars themselves. (As it so happens, the etymologies are already included.)

Reconsidering your original point, you would have us believe that a bad transliteration of an Arabic term - common for star names - just happened to turn into a meaningful (and appropriate) term in English. When Europe absorbed Arabic star-lore in the Renaissance, the vast majority of scientific works were written in Latin, while the main point of contact was in Spain. Yet your thesis is that the term went directly from Arabic to English, "The Big Dipper" being meaningless in either Latin or Spanish. Further, it is not even English English, where the formation is called "The Plough," but American English. In sum, your suggestion is dubious, to say the least.

And, by the way, "Bellatrix" is not Arabic for anything - it is Latin, meaning "female warrior" or "Amazon."

B00P (talk) 20:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please quote the following link, I suggest yu read it entirely: The female warrior does not exist in the Orion legend because it is about a male hunter not a female warrior: http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=934 --Noureddine (talk) 23:46, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Regarding your latest comment about Belletrix, I am sorry to inform you that you are making two errors.

1. You are expecting absolute consistancy across different cultures and millenia of time. While you are correct in your observation that there is nothing in the Orion myth that would suggest that the second-magnitude star marking one of his shoulders should be referred to as "the Female Warrior," that is the name for Gamma Orionis, anyway. The constellation Orion and its myth are Greek. However it origins are much older and tend to point to Anatolia. That some Roman slapped a not-particularly-appropriate Latin name on one of its stars hundreds of years after the heyday of Greek astronomy, is just happenstance. You could just as easily complain that the Orion story is inconsistant with the older Hebrew name (Kesel = "fool") and story. And then you could further be miffed that this tale doesn't match the even older Indian version (Praja Pati, Sanskrit "Lord of Beings"). And finally you could wonder how Prajapati wound up as the Proper Name for Delta Aurigae, a star in an entirly different constellation.

2. No matter what that other site claims, it is important to remember that the high point of Islamic (mostly Persian) astronomy now lies 500 years in the past, and over a thousand years after the Greeks. Although most stellar Proper Names are Arabic (actually mangled Arabic), mostly they are merely descriptions of where the star is located in the already-existing Ptolemaic patterns. Such pre-telescopic observational efforts, while good and accurate, have all been long ago superceeded. It is the mathematical work in the fields of trigonometry and spherical geometry by men such as Ulugh Beg that were major advances in the field.

B00P (talk) 21:25, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Dear B00P: I did not say that Arabs invented Astronomy or create these names. The very survival of Arabic names into modern days astonomy proves that Arabs have contributed (through Spain, not Persia, nor Arabia) with their works in a way that the astronomical mapping penetrated the English nomenclature. If these names have equivalents in Persian, Hebrew or Chinese, or Latin, it does not mean Arab efforts are discredited. No offense meant, but it is already established that Arab translators contributed in the transmission of major Greek and Latin works to nowadays knowledge. They brought back from Oblivion, major Persian and Sancript works that the contemporary Iranians are using with Arabic Language.

Noureddine (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Fiction

DreamGuy excised everything but the Biblical reference in the "Other" subsection, with the explanation that "fiction does not belong here."

I disagree and have reverted. The entire "Names and Lore" section is a record of various imaginative appellations given to this figure. As should be clear, there is no "real" or "official" name for the grouping. In this context, mention of the "Valacirca," for example, is just as valid as the other unusual terms. As long as the work of fiction is well-known and the entry is brief, there is no problem. B00P (talk) 19:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is it called the big dipper

cause it is bigger than the little dipper

Wagon concept

The Wagon concept comes from Mesopotamia. MUL.APIN gives Ursa Major as MAR.GID.DA.AN.NA "the wagon of the heaven, Damkianna", see Origins of the ancient constellations: I. The Mesopotamian traditions, by Rogers, J. H. The Wagon is there as early as 1100 B.C. in the "three stars each" catalogue. The text claims:

An older Odin's Wain may lie behind these northern concepts.

But that can at best then be a middle station of the Wagon symbolism. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 19:56, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Disputable Biblical Reference

Under the "Other" subheading: "The Bible (Amos 5:8) refers to it as 'the seven stars.'"

The citation for this is merely the King James Version of the Bible followed by this text: "Although 'seven stars' is the literal translation, other versions have 'Big Dipper' explicitly, while some translations of that verse refer instead to the Pleiades, which also has seven stars visible to the naked eye, but which are called 'the netted stars' in Job 38:31."

The author of this entry states that "other versions have 'Big Dipper' explicitly" but does not deign to provide any reference to such a version. A search of 20 common translations by myself discovered no such version using "Big Dipper" and only King James and King-James-based versions using "the seven stars." Every other modern translation uses "Pleiades" and the accepted translation of the original Hebrew is also "Pleiades or seven stars."

This statement needs to be removed from the article. 97.127.99.3 (talk) 17:37, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Not in mine translation either. It says "sjustjärnorna" which is an uncommon name for the Pleiades in Swedish. It is also mentioned in the same context as Orion, which is pretty near to the Pleiades, but far from the big Dipper. I'll delete... ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 23:10, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Modified as per this discussion. B00P (talk) 05:57, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Wild-run article

The article is somewhat wild-run, statements like Big Dipper being called "Karlavagnen" in opposition to "Kvinnovagnen" for the Little Dipper seems like a folks etymology to me. "Karlavagnen" as "the Men's Wagon" is as wild speculation as the story about "the Wagon of Charlemagne". No theory should be prefered without sources. Many more citations needed for this article. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 23:15, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I found a reference about "Kvinnovagnen", so it seems to have existed as a concept. However, there is no indication from the rare 5 (!!) google hits on karlavagnen kvinnovagnen that the "Karlavagnen"/"Kvinnovagnen" dichotomy was original.

I'll be back. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 09:14, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems some scholars are confounded by the lack of early sources for "kvennavagn" too. Just an observation. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 09:18, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

(retracted: not in source given) ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 12:01, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Dropping a relevant link (Svensk etymologisk ordbok). "Kvennavagn" is mentioned. I'll evaluate and translate some sentences later for supporting the Icelandic "kvennavagn". The entry doesn't claim any original proto-nordic source for "kvennar" vs. "karlar" as applied to UMi/UMa(BD), it just claims wide geographic distribution for "wagon". ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 12:28, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Copying my own translation from my user space:

Karlavagnen, Stora Björnen, ä. nsv. även karle-, karl-, O. Petri Kr., y. fsv. karlawagnen;	Men's wagon, The Great Bear, older contemporary Swedish, also karle-, karl-, Olaus Petri [Kr?], late old Swedish karlawagnen;
jfr sv. dial. karsvagnen = da. karlsvognen (ags. carles wǽn, väl från nord.);	cf. Sw, dialectal karsvagnen = Danish karlsvognen (Old English carles wǽn, prob. from the Nordic Languages);
senare omtytt efter Karl den store, jfr Stiernhielm: then stoore Carels wagn, meng. Cherlemaynes-wayne.	later reinterpreted after Charles the Great, cf. Stiernhielm: then stoore Carels wagn, middle English Cherlemaynes-wayne.
Felaktigt tolkat såsom innehållande isl. karl som binamn till Oden, jfr mholl. Woenswaghen (till Woen, Oden).	Erroneously interpreted as containing Icelandic karl as a cognomen of Wodan, cf. middle Dutch Woenswaghen (to Woen, Wodan).
I stället sammansatt med appellativet karl i motsats till isl. kvennavagn, om Lilla Björnen.	Instead composed from the appellative karl in opposition to Icelandic kvennavagn, for the Little Bear.
Beteckningen 'vagn' för Stora Björnen — syftande på stjärnbildens form — är allmänt spridd, jfr t.ex. isl. vagn, ty. wagen, grek ámaxa Homerus, lat. plaustrum, fra, chariot osv.	The denotion 'wagon' for Greater Bear — alleging to the form of the constellation — is wide-spread, cf. f.ex. Icelandic vagn, German wagen, Greek ámaxa Homerus, Latin plaustrum, French chariot a.s.o.

for cut-and-paste into the article. Just a minute, I'll reread how the text can be rewritten. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 08:00, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

The current Wagon allegations

Section Europe, first paragraph: currently it alleges that:

1. that the connection between "karlavagnen"/"Charles' Wain" and "Charlemagne" is a folks etymology — it can be supported by Svensk etymologisk ordbok, but one source is IMHO not enough: etymological evaluations use to differ, some other sources needed;

2. that the dichotomy "karlavagnen" ("Mens' wagon") vs. "kvinnovagnen" ("Womens' wagon") is older, which might be supported by that source but, not as strongly as 1., and I have doubts since the occurrence of "kvinnovagnen"/"kvennavagn" etc. is so uncommon, and since the structure of the dichotomy seems so "obviously" folksetymological – we actually need to find a primary source for "kvennavagn", such as the Edda;

3. that Odin's Wain may [sic!!!] be original – this is a case of suspected so called "WP:OR" unless attested by a citation and source, and otherwise the occurrence of the auxilliary verb "may" is an indication that someone speculates, and it aint going to be one of the WP:Editors per WP:Policy!!

Actually I think that paragraph is so wild, that it must be reformulated. The chain Odin's Wain --> Karlavagnen and the originality of the dichotomy Karlavagnen vs. Kvinnovagnen either must be attested, or those allegations are not acceptable in an encyclopedia. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 08:38, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Actually: I might consider retracting the criticism for Finn Bringsjord's opinion. It is a blog, but Finn is a can.mag. covering "historie og teologi", he explains that (translated from Norwegian Bokmål):

Den ekte ”himmelvogna” ++: The genuine "wagon of heaven", the seven largest [sic!] stars in the Greater Bear (Ursa Major), switched name to “Karlsvogna” after the Christianization. In Nordic poetry it is referred to as “Rognis reid”, Wodans Wagon. For vikings crossing the North Sea the constellation Karlsvogna was the most important of all [constellatons] because it appoints the "polar star", the star which pointed out the north direction.

I'll make a try to find a non-blog source saying something similar, blog sources should generally not be used, per Wikipedia guidelines. ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 09:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Xtremely frustrating! Couldn't find another source supporting Finn Bringsjord's opinion. Instead the “Rognis reid” or “Rögnis reid” means circa "The Wagon of the Ruler". It is plausible to believe that this refers to "Wodan/Odin" but "Plausible doesn't make articles in Wikipedia". ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 10:28, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

&%¤!%&*%&¤ü#*X!!! This site claims that Big Dipper is Thor's Wain! ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 10:45, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite

I think, based on the weak indications either way or another, that the paragraph about the wain must be neutral according to what was the original term for "Big Dipper".

• The support for "Odin's Wagon" seems weak — weak sources exists, but I could not find secure firsthand mentions in old sources such as Edda, Voluspa or similar, only sources from c:a 1900 — so it must be mentioned by may as it is now.
• That "Odin's Wagon" laid behind "Karlavagnen" et al. is unattestable, so they must be mentioned without implying any relation.
• "Karlavagnen" as a construct in contrast to "Kvinnovagnen" is attestable by sources (even though I, personally, suspect some fact "feedback circuits" where original suggestions are propagated as facts among scholars),
• The alleged relation between "Charlemagne" and "Karlavagnen" seems to be generally regarded as a folk's etymology, and is sourceable, even though I cannot find sources that identify the time of history when the notion first appeared.
• I believe that alleging that Charles' Wain is related to Karlavagnen is not too bold, since "Charles", while still used as a name is an old word for "man" in English too (In Nordic "Karl" is both a personal name and a word substitutable for "man"). Besides the comparison is sourceable.
• Margidda "the Wagon" mentioned earlier in this talk page is a Sumerian rendering of a Mesopotamian wagon, that most scholars (sourceably) believe is Ursa Major, while another Margiddanna, the Heavenly Wagon, is generally (sourceably) believed to be Ursa Minor.
• More than just Germanic Wagons, such as the Romanian one, would be very nice...

I think. Have opinions! ... said: Rursus (^mbork³) 12:22, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

As you appear to be concerned about the item's length, I suggest that once you have figured out exactly what you wish to say, that you add it as a footnote to the text. B00P (talk) 06:04, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

"British Islands" or "Ireland and Britain"

How about some useful and intelligent discussion instead of stubbornly reverting each others' edits? Just an idea. Thanks. SpecB (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Ash Constellation

The Ash constellation mentioned in the book of Job (Job 9:7-9; 38:32, 33) in the Tanakh has been associated with Ursa Major. - (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_names_of_stars#Ash) --96.46.201.195 (talk) 07:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

East Asian astronomy

uses an entirely separate system.

A
Now that they're modernizing and Europe controls many of the international organizations, they have names for the European ones and sometimes even use them. You need sourcing that this one is in popular use now, if you're saying that. You need sourcing that this one has been used in the past, if you're saying that. It's possible they developed the idea of a "dipper" completely separately and it became bound up in Taoist belief. It just needs to be sourced. Easily verifiably. (For example, good job on sourcing and linking Japanese use of the Northern Dipper. That made it very easy to find the relevant page where a "Southern Dipper" is being discussed.)

You'll need individual sourcing for otherwise bizarre ideas like that a goddess gave birth to the stars of this asterism. It's possible these stars were birthed as part of another asterism but, y'know, explain that and source it.

B
It's quite nice and pretty to see the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, &c. names for the stars. a) They go in the #Stars section, not the #Name section. b) They probably shouldn't go there either. You're going to end up with a chart including every language's name for each of the stars. That belongs at Wiktionary or on the stars' individual pages. I've included the Japanese names commented out below. Feel free to add them to the relevant pages, if they're not already: Note also that the Purple Forbidden Enclosure page has several separate Chinese sets of names for these stars, none of which seem to agree with the Japanese set. — LlywelynII 08:08, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

direct copying

The paragraphs from "Escaping slaves had to find their way north" to "by many musicians" is directly copied from source [6]. It should be changed and condensed. Would this leave out too much?

It was also called "the drinking gourd" by slaves who used it to find the North Star in order to escape north (often Canada) where slavery was illegal. This is the source of the song Follow the Drinkin' Gourd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.19.200.7 (talk) 21:06, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

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'A is similar to B, but not vice versa'?

'The bear relation is claimed to stem from the animal's resemblance to—and mythical origin from—the asterism rather than vice versa.'

The myths are one thing, but as for similarity, claiming that the bear is similar to the asterism but not vice versa is just logically meaningless. If A is similar to B, then B is similar to A. This also sounds like a weird academic-sounding way of endorsing some (Finnic pagan?) myths as true. Of course neither of the two phenomena originates from the other, it's just an accidental similarity as perceived by humans, but in the real, non-mythical world, it was most certainly the word originally referring to the bear that was transferred (by humans) to the asterism and not vice versa. --77.85.55.14 (talk) 22:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, it is not that the stars appear to be a bear, but that the bear (animal) was associated with the north. The word "arctic" and the Greek word "arctos" (Ancient Greek ἄρκτος), meaning bear are strongly related. Presumably, the bear was more common in the north than in the south.

This article should contain information about the Big Dipper or whatever you call it being used as a navigational aid since ancient times. (I mean, more than the sentence "This makes it useful in celestial navigation.") It was useful to have a recognizable pattern of bright stars that were always in the north. The [disambiguation page] for "seven star(s)" may lead a reader here. It also includes the Pleiades and the Little Dipper, but I think that the primary "seven stars" were this constellation, which is borne out by the various nicknames in many cultures, as cited in the article. Wastrel Way (talk) Eric

How to link german version, while conflict w/ ursa major exists

German version cant be added: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gro%C3%9Fer_B%C3%A4r yet dewiki // Großer Bär claims that Big Dipper cannot be linked, as ursa major is the enwiki version 2A02:810B:1040:1F77:17AF:4DC6:6CE1:761D (talk) 20:11, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

What are you trying to do? Add a Big Dipper article to German wiki? There already is one, a dab page, and it mentions (not very accurately, I think) Big Dipper as being English for the Great Bear. Lithopsian (talk) 20:21, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

image "seen from Fujian"?

Nothing against the good people of Fujian and their astrophotographic expertise, but does the fact that it is "seen from Fujian" make any difference? Wouldn't an image of just the asterism look the same from anywhere? --2607:FEA8:D5DF:1AF0:6574:25DE:EAF4:6A32 (talk) 13:14, 26 July 2021 (UTC)