Talk:Berlin Wall/Archive 3

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Don't Fence Me In (song)

Citation (German): AFN ODER NICHT AFN - DAS IST HIER DIE FRAGE ! Während des Berliner Mauerbaus wendet sich ein falscher AFN Berlin, eine Variante des Deutschen Soldatensenders, an die in den Streit um die Berliner Mauer verwickelten amerikanischen Soldaten. Seine Einleitungsmelodie: "Don' t fence me in..." ("Zäune mich nicht ein"). From: http://www.andre-scheer.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=56&Itemid=14 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.114.206 (talk) 18:23, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

(German) http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-45138058.html Don't fence me in - with love from East Berlin! 8/19/2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.34.92.60 (talk) 12:51, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Reference and link to the DER SPIEGEL mentioned above entered in Don't Fence Me In (song). Alandeus (talk) 12:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Deaths from defection attempts?

Is there a list of people who died when trying to escape to West Germany? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.3.204 (talk) 02:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

The museum "Gedenkstätte Deutsche Teilung Marienborn" otherwise known as Checkpoint Alpha (see [1] and [2]) has a big panel. But you'll have to drive there to look at it. Alandeus (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This new article might help: List of deaths at the Berlin Wall‎. Alandeus (talk) 11:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Who exactly financed the construction and maintenance of the Berlin Wall?

Who exactly financed the construction and maintenance of the Berlin Wall? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.184.130.104 (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I am 99.9% certain it was the government of East Germany. Pais (talk) 07:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
And who financed them but USSR? I.e., the Communist Party. . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:34, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Wiki is not the place for emotive arguments or apportioning blame. If you have any supporting evidence, other than conventional wisdom, feel free to add it.Flanker235 (talk) 04:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The East German government built the wall so they paid for it and for the upkeep, which put such a strain on the economy that it contributed to the regime's downfall eventually. Communist party? Which communist party now? No communist party has a budget to build a wall. On the other hand, they did control nations behind the iron curtain. Alandeus (talk) 08:28, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected status of article

Hi everyone, I don't understand why this article is semi-protected. There's no discussion of the impetus for the protection here on the discussion page. Would someone fill me in? Newsthug (talk) 18:28, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it has to do with preventing graffiti on the Wall. ;-) Hope That Helps [HTH] . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe it has something to do with the article being listed as a level 4 vital article in History.108.85.152.134 (talk) 17:24, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Edit request from Farnol, 10 July 2011

The external link named "Moments in Time 1989/1990" should be http://www.wir-waren-so-frei.de/ , not https://www.wir-waren-so-frei.de/ .

Farnol (talk) 18:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Done Jnorton7558 (talk) 22:46, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Commemorative Event to mark 50-year Anniversary

Have you seen the news? The Article needs a new section on commemorations. (Not to forget, say city/nation leaders.)
"Germany marks rise and fall of Berlin Wall"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/8699626/Germany-marks-50th-anniversary-of-Berlin-Wall.html

"Berlin has marked the 50th anniversary of the day the Berlin Wall started to go up with a memorial service and a minute of silence in memory of those who died trying to flee to the West."
Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Alandeus for improving 50-year commemoration. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 02:54, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

What about border guards of GDR?

What about border guards of GDR, who were killed by asylum-seekers and western border guards? And what about Peter Fechter who dead because western policemen threaded to murder border guards of GDR? Didn’t they say “we will kill you, if you approach him”? Therefore border guard, who was bring to account, was discharge (in FRG). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.232.66.71 (talk) 20:52, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

A couple of East German border guards were killed by fellow guards trying to prevent them from escaping. No ‘asylum-seekers’ ever killed any guards, but I’m not sure about if some escapees did in self-defense. Western patrols did fire warning shots, but I don’t think there are any reliable references out there about a killing. If anything, it was by private members of escape-help organizations. Refer to Deaths on the border in Inner_German_border, which is where this topic belongs anyway. Alandeus (talk) 08:47, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the Berlin Wall Memorial list of all victims, six GDR guards were killed by people crossing the wall.
  • Jörgen Schmidtchen (20 years old) was shot in 1962 by a deserting soldier. Schmidtchen assumed his fellow soldier to be on patrol like himself, approached him unsuspectingly while chatting pleasantly, and was shot. Schmidtchen's killer was then shot by another guard before he could get across the Wall.
  • Reinhold Huhn (20 years old) was shot in 1962 by a man who was heading to an escape tunnel. Huhn didn't know the man, just outside the forbidden zone, was an escapee, and approached him for a routine check of his I.D. papers. The man drew a gun and shot him. Huhn's killer was convicted of murder in 2000, following reunification.
  • Siegfried Widera (22 years old) was bludgeoned in 1963 by an escapee posing as a maintenance worker. Again, Widera approached him unsuspectingly, and was bashed on the head. He died two weeks later in hospital, of a fractured skull. It led the GDR authorities to order guards to stop being so trustful of people who appeared to be legitimately within the restricted area. His killer was charged with homicide in the West; the charge was dropped because he was genuinely distressed at having killed someone, and it could not be proved it had been premeditated.
  • Egon Schultz (21 years old) was shot in the lung in 1964 by a West Berlin citizen who was helping East Berliners escape into a tunnel. The helper shot first. Schultz was then also hit accidentally by several shots from another GDR guard firing almost blindly into the dark in response to the initial shot. A court after reunification found that the West Berlin man who had fired at Schultz had not acted in self defence; he was already dead by the time of the inquest, however, and therefore could not be charged.
  • Rolf Henniger (26 years old) was shot in 1968 by a defecting police officer. Henniger called out to him, again assuming that he had a legitimate reason for being there; the policeman shot him, then was himself shot by another guard.
  • Ulrich Steinhauer (24 years old) was shot five times in the back in 1980 by a fellow GDR soldier who wanted to defect, and who was on patrol with him. His killer was convicted of homicide in the West, but treated leniently as he was less than 21 years old.
Contrary to Alandeus' assumption, in none of these six cases did the guard shoot first. In five cases, they were partly or entirely unsuspecting, and taken by surprise; arguably in all six, since even Schultz didn't actually know that he was going to be confronted to armed defectors. Today these guards are commemorated as victims of the Berlin Wall, and of the system which placed them in that situation, just as much as the people who died while escaping to the West. You can read about them here. Aridd (talk) 08:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Add an anchor

{{edit semi-protected}} Please add {{anchor|Construction}} immediately above the start of the section Berlin Wall#Construction begins, 1961. Thank you in advance. 72.244.206.76 (talk) 01:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

 Done Avicennasis @ 08:58, 13 Elul 5771 / 08:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 December 2011

I would like to update this page with scholarly additions to the discussion and more citations to help people studying the topic.

Mediadevelopment (talk) 00:26, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

This template is for requesting specific changes to the page, if you wish to edit it yourself you need to be autoconfirmed or confirmed--Jac16888 Talk 00:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 April 2012

An important reason the West Berlin border was not closed earlier was that doing so would cut off much of the railway traffic in East Germany. A new railway around West Berlin, the Berlin outer ring, was started to be built 1951 and when finished in 1961, it was more practical to close the border.

change to

An important reason that the West Berlin border was not closed earlier was that doing so would cut off much of the railway traffic in East Germany. Construction of a new railway bypassing West Berlin, the Berlin outer ring, commenced in 1951. Following the completion of the railway in 1961, it was more practical to close the border.

mshuha (talk) 05:01, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

HUGE TYPO, EDIT!!!

Down on one of the captions, the caption states an NVA soldier was jumping the wall "NVA soldier Conrad Schumann defecting to West Berlin during the wall's early days in 1961" but NVA stands for North Vietnamese Army during the vietnam war. What should be there is NPA or the national peoples army. Preceding unsigned comment by Tmasonw (talk · contribs) 17:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC).

In German, NVA stands for Nationale Volksarmee; this acronym is also used in English. It is accurate and doesn't need to change. Skimel (talk) 12:55, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Fall of the wall date in the infobox?

I think it would be great to have the date that the wall fell in the infobox directly underneath the "construction started" heading. In fact it would be nice to also have "construction completed", which I've read was around 1980 but can't find a specific date. Any thoughts on adding these two headings to the infobox? RegardsNozzleberry (talk) 11:25, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

The wall didn't actually "fall" on one day, i.e. 9 November 1989. It was opened then and deconstruction began shortly thereafter and was mostly completed within about a year, with some few remainders still standing in places as memorials. So it was a gradual procedure without any definite dates available. A "deconstruction started 9 Nov. 1989" would be possible. Likewise, the wall was never completed as such. Fencing that was there from even before the brick or cement walls were erected were replaced bit-by-bit by more solid barriers. And these barriers were likewise constantly being renewed through various designs. And then the death-strips behind them were also constantly being modernized. So, it was a constant, never-ending work in progress. No wonder the GDR was going broke! Alandeus (talk) 13:11, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks a lot for a very educational response! So it sounds like the only option would be to include "deconstruction started: 9 Nov 1989" underneath the existing "construction started" heading. I personally think this would be a great addition to the article. The only problem is that the infobox uses the template:infobox historic building which only allows a "demolition date" heading. Is there any way to include the "deconstruction started" heading apart from editing the historic building template?Nozzleberry (talk) 23:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Can we please not use the word "deconstruction" in this context in the article? Although that's become a modish word used to mean "taking something apart," it means something else entirely.[3] English already has a perfectly good word for this, namely, "demolition." Sindinero (talk) 06:51, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for the correction....So, what do we think about including "demolition started: 9 Nov 1989" in the infobox then?Nozzleberry (talk) 22:43, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 28 August 2012

NEW (change to Wikipedia Link adress)

OLD

MFWS (talk) 15:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Done A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 13:52, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Su Gyaw

"On 1 July, the day East Germany adopted the West German currency - the "Su Gyaw" - all de jure border controls ceased"

LOL. Maybe someone could change this nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.142.187.224 (talk) 11:45, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Music related to the Berlin Wall

Tear Me Down - From the musical Hedwig and the Angry Inch - 1998

The song provides a brief history of the Berlin Wall and its importance as a symbol of the Cold War. The opening of the Wall and the Reunification of Germany is used a metaphor for crossing gender lines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:12C0:A126:D489:E308:961F:CB3C (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

We Didn't Start The Fire - Billy Joel - 1989

The song includes the lyric "Berlin" which directly refers to the 1961 Headline. It is defined in the song as the wall separating East and West Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.39.121.213 (talk) 06:09, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no Cold War link in the "See Also" section

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlin6248 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 23 January 2013

Premier Khrushchev gave the East German government permission to stop the flow of emigrants by closing its border for good. In just two weeks, the East German army, police force and volunteer construction workers had completed a makeshift barbed wire and concrete block wall–the Berlin Wall–that divided one side of the city from the other. Melinaa 42 (talk) 19:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[The History Channel website 1]

Not done: It looks like this information is already in the article. See the "Contruction begins" section RudolfRed (talk) 05:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 11 February 2013

Add a photo of a concrete sample coming from the wall: thumb|Concrete sample coming from Berliner wall.

Laurent06 (talk) 10:36, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Hi Laurent06, please specify where you think this photo should be included. Many thanks, Zalunardo8 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi Zalunardo8, the best place should be in "demolition" chapter.

"The Fall" -> "demolition" Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laurent06 (talk • contribs) 10:57, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

 Done There were a lot of images in this section, so I moved them into galleries. -- Dianna (talk) 19:09, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request, correct the dates

Considering this is written in English, and not in German, the dates are entered in the incorrect format. for example today is March 7th, 2013. NOT 7 March 2013. all dates throughout this article should be corrected so they are less annoying, not to mention grammatically correct — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asdiajhgsadlkfjbh (talk • contribs) 20:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Sorry Asdiajhgsadlkfjbh, but that is the standard way the dates are written in English Wikipedia. Why, even your signature is dated 7 March 2013. Alandeus (talk) 09:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Kennedy speech

The following on the reaction of the Kennedy administration to the wall strikes me as as a couple of half-truths completely divorced from reality.

"In a speech on 26 July 1963, US President John F. Kennedy had acknowledged[43] that the United States could only hope to defend West Berliners and West Germans; to attempt to stand up for East Germans would result only in an embarrassing downfall. Accordingly, the administration made polite protests at length via the usual channels, but without fervour."

"Without fervour" seems especially bizarre. I've included a video of the speech, which is actually quite famous for its furvour. The only citation on the bizarre paragraph above [43] is a transcript of the speech. Since this is my first edit here, I'll ask somebody experienced here to modify the above paragraph, or I may come back in a week or so and do it myself. Smallbones(smalltalk) 13:22, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 6 July 2013

81.105.97.115 (talk) 06:18, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

section: Media relating to the wall

Add new reference.

"The Berlin Wall is the protagonist of the song Period Piece (Standards, Lloyd Cole)"

song on Soundcloud

https://soundcloud.com/lloydcole/3-period-piece

Thanks

Not done: Looking at the lyrics, while it definitely is referencing the Berlin Wall I don't think it merits a mention in this article. The songs already listed are specifically and prominently mentioning the Berlin Wall. Listing every song which contains indirect references to the Wall would be an exceedingly long list of songs which wouldn't add anything to this article. --ElHef (Meep?) 06:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Original Part of the Berlin Wall 1989 Gift from Daimler - Benz AG to Bill Gates on February 8th 1996. At Microsoft Conference Center in Redmond, WA

Boscowall (talk) 22:37, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Jackmcbarn (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Walesa and Berlin Wall dominos

The description of the dominos used in the 20th Anniversary of the Fall of the Berlin Wall should include Lech Walesa. The organizers of the event had him push the first domino - Poland. This puts the collapse of the Wall into perspective and would give the reader a broader understanding of the events.

Janusz Duzinkiewicz jduzinkiewicz@pnc.edu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zCRkQFxaDc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaduzink (talk • contribs) 20:54, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 May 2014

Wikiquote has quotations related to Berlin Wall/Archive 3.
Wikimedia Commons has media related to Berlin Wall/Archive 3.

Scooter030 (talk) 08:10, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Done, placed in Images section of External links; recommendable images Alandeus (talk) 10:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
Apparently already done by Alandeus. — {{U|Technical 13}} (t • e • c) 12:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2014

Towards the bottom of this article under Music, I request that this entry be made: "Wall", a semi-autobiographical song by the rock band Steppenwolf. Singer John Kay was smuggled through the wall by his mother at a young age, describes the experience, and later the joy in seeing the wall come down. The song includes an excerpt from JFK's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech. 99.126.24.187 (talk) 15:45, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done for now: Need a reliable source for the description you're requesting - I don't see a problem with adding this song as it is quite clearly about the Berlin Wall, but I don't know about the semi-autobiographical bit. Seeing as Kay's biography on Steppenwolf's official site describes him as immigrating to Canada in 1958 and construction on the Berlin Wall started 3 years later in 1961, I don't believe this is true. If you can provide a reliable source that says this is indeed what happened, will be happy to add in this autobiographical bit. Cannolis (talk) 16:25, 27 October 2014 (UTC)

Link to a good picturegallery about the Berlin Wall. Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2014

Hello, I would like to add a link to a picturegallery about the Berlin Wall to this article. http://www.medienarchiv.com/1/index.php?/Bilder/Deutschland/Berliner%20Mauer

Regards

Thomas Gade Toga1962 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: Those images are copyrighted and thus can't be used on Wikipedia. For more info please see the image usage policy. Stickee (talk) 11:10, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

Cultural differences

There are cultural differences between East and West. However this article refers to none, merely opinion on reunification, an entirely different matter. As for Russian public knowledge of the history of the Soviet occupation of Germany, that does not belong in this article at all. Probably it would be better referencing Communist influence on modern Russia, or the degree of official censorship under Putin.125.237.105.102 (talk) 03:12, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

WestBank (Palestine) and Berlin

I think we should add some to this article about the wall dividing westbank — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.161.67.74 (talk) 10:22, 9 November 2014 (UTC)


The Wall fell in 1990, not 1989

Although the wall was opened in 1989, its demolition did not actually begin on an official basis until June 1990. While one can make a good argument it ceased to exist as a symbol of division on 9 November 1989 the fact remains it was very much operational well into 1990. Checkpoint Charlie's inner station was functioning for example until Germany was reunified in October 1990. Thevideodrome (talk) 06:01, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

No, the "Fall of the Wall" means the end of the Wall as an effective barrier. True, the pieces were carried off physically mostly in early 1990 and I don't think any wall segments actually fell over. Alandeus (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Paraphrasing an earlier comment that I wrote when I reverted the original edit in the article - the wall ceased to exist as a barrier to entry in 1989. To say that it lasted until 1990 is in many ways like claiming that it is still there today just because certain sections remain standing. FFM784 (talk) 22:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I disagree because the wall was still patrolled and while new entry points were made and parts of the outer wall were chipped off, the Wall was not actually dismantled nor were the border checks removed until well into 1990. The Wall was still functional until June 13, 1990, it just no longer served the morbid purpose it did most of its existence. Prior to that point it's entirely possible East Germany could have re-closed the wall though of course highly unlikely because the zeitgeist had changed. Thevideodrome (talk) 09:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Berlin Wall history and victims of the Wall (Image)

I've just created a SVG image showing the relationship between the Berlin Wall generations and its victims. Feedbacks appreciated, thanks!

Berlin Wall

--Sara P.Bo (talk) 16:54, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Typo in 'The Fall' section

Fourth paragraph, last word in third sentence: ...allowing free travel across their common boarder, should be: ...allowing free travel across their common border

Thanks!

Done. Thank you.Charles (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2015

193.158.209.58 (talk) 10:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a change.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Telecommunications

I'm a little surprised to find nothing in this article about what happened to telecomms during this period. When I visited East Berlin in the early 80s the place was festooned with CB radio systems and prior to the CB era a lot of converted military radio gear had been used on frequency bands close to the official Radio Amateur frequencies. As a UK based Radio Pirate in the 70s and 80s, much of my radio work was with the city of Berlin and the DDR where many people used this radio network as a way of staying in touch with the west, or east dependent on their own location. I feel that this important period in modern communications history deserves a place in this fantastic article and call upon Wikipedians to research and deliver on this fascinating moment in social history. Andy. Yorkshire UK. Not an editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.159.1.141 (talk) 08:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

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the Berlin wall cut the East from the West — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.132.7.2 (talk) 16:07, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Defection attempts - Shoot to Kill

At present the section both says "The East German government issued shooting orders (Schießbefehl) to border guards dealing with defectors, though such orders are not the same as 'shoot to kill' orders" and that "East German police had received shoot-to-kill orders". Only one can be accurate! DrArsenal (talk) 23:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

   I tend to get distracted when I create a mental to-do list, so I notehere now that if anyone responded to this need, it was not someone sufficiently motivated to have commented here about how they resolved the issue (or perhaps decided the facts about how the content reads in context were being misrepresented on this talk page). In either case, a report here on whether further attention is needed would be a welcome contribution, if my attention fails as usual to return (in this case, to here) after I attend to what I'm giving the higher priority on my mental task list.
--Jerzy•t 02:22, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 December 2015

Original: "In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period, until prevented."

Edited: "In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period."

OMIT: ", until prevented." Does not add meaning to the sentence. May be replaced optionally with ", until dismantled."

Regards, M 24.13.203.57 (talk) 02:32, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Done replaced it with an earlier "had" Cannolis (talk) 12:48, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Bowie Concert

User:Runner1928 has modified the text about David Bowie's concert to say that there were East Germans attending the concert. Given the location, I presume this was gathering near the wall on the Eastern side, but we need a reference to a reliable source. DrArsenal (talk) 09:37, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

This is complete. Runner1928 (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Is 'Wall' a proper noun that should be captialised?

Primergrey and I are disagreeing about whether most instances of "Wall" should be capitalized. I think in most instances it is used as a proper noun, short for "The Berlin Wall", while Primergrey thinks that virtually all instances should be in lower case. I think Primergrey accepts that some, very restricted, instances should be captialised, and I accept that some uses of the word 'wall' (eg 'inner wall') in the article are not proper nouns and should not be capitalized (I took care to be selective about which uses were capitalized).

But for the bulk, what is more relevant 1) MOS:GEOUNITS in general or 2) the exception at MOS:GEOUNITS - and, more generally, MOS:NAMECAPS? DrArsenal (talk) 11:58, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

The MOS is pretty clear on this, "Berlin Wall" is capitalized, "wall" is not. No matter the context, unless describing a Pink Floyd album. The City (of London) is an exception, not a representation of a set of exceptions. Hadrian's Wall, Western Wall and the Great Wall of China articles all reflect this. Primergrey (talk) 18:36, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, disagree. Certainly 'The City' is an exception, but where is the indication that it is the ONLY exception, which is what would be needed to make the case? It's no surprise to me that 'wall' is not captialised in an article about Hadrian's Wall. When I lived in Newcastle upon Tyne and Wallsend, if anybody had asked "where can I find the Wall", we would have been a bit baffled - what wall were they talking about? By contrast, go to Berlin, and ask "where can I find the Wall" and people know which wall you are talking about. The question comes down to the extent to which the noun is used in normal usage as a shorthand for the full proper noun. My suspicion is "The City" is less commonly used as shorthand for "The City of London" than "The Wall" is used as shorthand for the Berlin Wall (although there may be a difference between popular usage and usage in RS on this, because RS tend to have less of an assumption of where the communication is taking place than usage in conversation). And of course, there has been no answer on why MOS:NAMECAPS should not apply. DrArsenal (talk) 23:22, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
German nouns are capitalized: "die Mauer" (the wall). And in English, when referring to a noun with a proper name preceding it (Hadrian's Wall, the Wailing or Western Wall) or an historically accepted part of a title (the Great Wall of China), it is permissible to cite "the Wall" when referring specifically to the object being discussed; in the same fashion it is permissible when other nouns in titles are discussed in print (the Stamp Act, the Mortgage Forgiveness Debt Relief Act, the French Revolution) to cite them as "the Act" or "the Revolution" for purposes of conciseness but only with that definite article (as opposed to "an act" or "a revolution"). 71.179.227.176 (talk) 04:57, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

After the wall opened, East Berliners crossed into West Berlin. Each East German was given 100 Deutschmarks as "greeting money" to spend by the West Berlin authorities. But, the wall was still technically an international boarder, so people were issued exit visas so they could cross legally.[1]

References

  1. ^ Grant. The Berlin Wall. Steck-Vaughn Company.

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Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 07:39, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the source for American tacit approval of the building of the Wall

This probably refers to historian Frederick Kempe's view that Kennedy signalled to Khrushchev that Soviet actions in East Germany and East Berlin would be allowed as long as West Berlin's status was not changed. It can be found in Berlin 1961. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.139.243.2 (talk) 17:46, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Edit request

Some escapees from the GDR succeded to flee from the country not only by climbing over the wall ans so crossing the no man' land stealthly but also by digging tunnels and so popping out on the west side. JimmyTortoraAU (talk) 17:53, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

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"German" which isn't German

The article begins The Berlin Wall (in german, Berlin Mauer) was …. Correct would be "Berliner Mauer". "Berlin Mauer" is children's or foreigner's stammering. --93.132.52.92 (talk) 08:57, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. It was a good faith bad edit. --jpgordon𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇 15:52, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

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Neutrality? Citations?

Yes, there is a warning on the page that refers to citations, however, I notice a lack of "citation needed" notes in the article. As I begin reading the article this collection of words sticks out with a "weird feeling": "accompanied by a wide area (later known as the "death strip") that contained anti-vehicle trenches, "fakir beds" and other defenses. The Eastern Bloc portrayed the Wall as protecting its population from fascist elements conspiring to prevent the "will of the people" in building a socialist state in East Germany. In practice, the Wall served to prevent the massive emigration and defection that had marked East Germany and the communist Eastern Bloc during the post-World War II period."

I read this part and find myself with that hollow "feeling" I get whenever I read something that's unscientific. First of all, "death strip" is a term used immediately in the article yet it's etymology is not referred to until further in the text. This alludes to a lack of neutrality in the article. However, that is not the reason I got my feeling. The quoted statement states things in a very factual "absolute" tone even going as far as declaring a false motive and true motive for the wall, as though these things were determined, verified, and credibly confirmed. In fact, these are mere speculations and they don't even have a citation to point to the sources of these speculations. The article needs to be rewritten to neutrally address many points of view of various biased sources and to rely on more than just a few "English language" sources since there were certainly more than English speakers involved at the Berlin Wall (in fact, it was mostly non-English speakers). The Cold War was an era of plentiful propaganda which undermined the "Information Age" itself, so relying on a small number of easily biased sources that essentially copied their articles from other news sources is lazy. An example of neutrality: in the Russian version of this article it is far more neutral sounding, declaring that the wall was built to stop illegal traffic happening in both directions (East and West), a situation we are currently very familiar with right here in the United States of America as of today. I'm not sure what it is about English that makes it so difficult to create neutral articles about political situations but it needs to stop and that means more people like me making these points. Mbman8 (talk) 11:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2018

In the section Fall of the Berlin Wall, please change "This, of course, meant that the news was broadcast to nearly all of East Germany as well." to "This meant that the news was broadcast to nearly all of East Germany as well." or reword it, per MOS:NOTE. Also please shorten the name of this section to just Fall; all words following are redundant since this is the subject of the article. 2A01:388:289:150:0:0:1:137 (talk) 20:10, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Done by DRAGON BOOSTER Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 09:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2018

213.32.253.176 (talk) 07:26, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

nooooooo

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Anon126 (notify me of responses! / talk / contribs) 07:45, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

The Collapse

I thoroughly recommend Mary Elise Sarotte's book The Collapse, which charts the events leading up to the Wall's destruction, and includes some pretty eye-opening stuff along the way. Her thesis, backed up by copious evidence (she's interviewed pretty much everyone involved who was alive during her research, including East Germany's then leader Egon Krenz), is that for all the Western propaganda, the likes of Thatcher, Reagan, Kohl et al had absolutely nothing to do with the breaching of the Wall, which was entirely an internal East German matter, aided and abetted by some very brave émigrés and their West German collaborators.

And what comes out most strongly is that all this was a chain of complete accidents (including, at one absolutely crucial moment, some internal misinformation passed on to the man charged with making public television announcements), and if just one thing had happened slightly differently, the entire course of post-1989 European history might also have been different. Because while the breaching of the Wall wasn't the only significant event to happen in 1989, or even the first such event in eastern Europe (the Poles and Hungarians had already decisively expressed their opinion of their Communist masters via the ballot box), it was by far the most symbolically important, and undoubtedly emboldened Czechs, Slovaks and Romanians a few weeks later. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 09:59, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2018

A new section of the Berlin Wall was discovered in January, 2018.

Please add a new paragraph "An 80 metre section of the wall was discovered in Pankow." after the sentence "The "fall of the Berlin Wall" paved the way for German reunification, which formally took place on 3 October 1990." and before the Contents.

https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2018/01/25/world/europe/ap-eu-germany-berlin-wall.html Toughtofu (talk) 12:21, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: The source you provided leaves open the possibility that the 80m segment might not actually have been part of the wall. Even if it is confirmed, it would be better suited for the List of Berlin Wall segments article, and certainly not in the location you requested on this article. —KuyaBriBriTalk 15:30, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Demolition?

From the Demolition section: "According to estimates by the border troops, a total of around 1.7 million tonnes of building rubble wasfall." I'm pretty sure "wasfall" isn't a word; is this a typo? --Joshualouie711talk 03:01, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Temporary unprotection

Hello everyone. I am running today an edit-a-thon [4] and students were assigned the task of improving 5 articles. I did not know the titles of the articles in advance and now realise that Berlin Wall, semi-protected, is one of those. Of course, being new editors, they can not edit it. I am lifting the semi-protection for a few hours. I expect no vandalism from them, and think it is unlikely that we run into much troubles if the article is fully editable for a few hours (having looked at the recent history... topic seems quiet at the moment). Bear with me please. I will re-protect it at the end of the day. Thank you for your care. Anthere (talk) 09:52, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 July 2018

Under the Structure and Adjacent areas heading, Layout and modifications. Final paragraph, 2nd to last line:

Noted graffiti artist Thierry Noir has reported having often been perused there by East German soldiers.[84] While some graffiti artists were chased off the outer strip, others, such as Keith Haring, were seemingly tolerated.

Change'perused' to 'pursued' in the first sentence. HutchComfy (talk) 12:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

How Khrushchev–Kennedy relations affected the construction of the wall

This section needs clean up. It contains word usage errors.71.209.253.36 (talk) 17:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Please add tag to main page

205.189.94.17 (talk) 18:45, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2019

  • In the "Fall of the Berlin Wall" section, there's this confusing closing to the 2nd paragraph:
    • [...] pastor Christian Führer regularly met with his congregation at St. Nicholas Church for prayer since 1982 [...] Many of those people started to cross into East Berlin, without a shot being fired.[ref]
    • If the article weren't WP i would've already edited it to "Many of those people started to cross into East Berlin,[citation needed] without a shot being fired". Note that the given source contains the "without a single shot being fired" phrase, but nothing about "cross[ing] into East Berlin"... This bit doesn't really make sense, considering Berlin is about 150 km away from Leipzig. Also, even if the Berlin part is related to the Alexanderplatz demonstration, that's in East Berlin too, so still no crossing would come up.
    • Also, i'd suggest changing that church link to actually show the city it's in: "met with his congregation at Leipzig's St. Nicholas Church for prayer since 1982".
  • In the "Legacy" section
    • From: "The former "Kieler Eck" (Kieler Eck) on Kieler Strasse in Mitte, close to the Berlin-Spandau Schifffahrtskanal—the tower is protected as a historic monument and now surrounded on three sides by new buildings."
    • To: "The former "Kieler Eck" (Kiel Corner) on Kieler Strasse ..."
  • The last entry in the "Related media" section, about The Berlin Wall game... The release date has been delayed until November 2019 according to what its steam page currently says.
    • From: ** In April 2018 game publisher Playway S.A. announced that Polish game studio K202 is working on The Berlin Wall game that will be published in December 2018.
    • To either "that was to be published in December 2018" or "that is estimated to be available in November 2019".

TY. -- 188.25.131.246 (talk) 06:20, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

 Done all (I think), with the exception of one bit that appeared to be already done (the first request about adding a CN tag). If I've missed anything please feel free to reopen and/or ping me. Thanks, ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 21:18, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

The Course of the Fall of the Berlin Wall: Planned or Haphazard? Brinkmann, Brokaw, or Ehrman?

I've been listening/transcribing history lectures given by Daniel Sargent at UC Berkeley from 2012, and during the class Sargent spoke about the role that Tom Brokaw plays in the course of events. When I looked for "Brokaw" in the article I didn't see the name mentioned, but going through some additional content perhaps the article is okay as it is.

I'll include what I've seen so far here in this talk page, and if necessary there could be some more discussion. Even if there are no changes to the page people who might be curious about whether Brokaw should be mentioned might see this on the Talk page (or in the archives of the Talk page).

Perhaps there could be general consensus that:

  • There was a press conference on November 9th with Günter Schabowski in which nothing major was expected to be announced.
  • During the press conference Schabowski spoke about changes in travel restrictions for East Germans. A reporter asked about when the lift in travel restrictions would take place and Schabowski said immediately.
  • Brokaw had a personal interview with Schabowski after the press conference in which Schabowski repeated that the changes would be immediate.
  • East Germans gathered at the wall and after a period of time were allowed to go through by the guards.

Issues that might be more murky:

  • Which reporter asked the question of Schabowski during the press conference?
  • Did Schabowski make a haphazard slip or was it planned by the East German government?
  • How significant was the interview between Brokaw and Schabowski in causing the crowds to gather at the gate?

Lecture Transcript from HIST 186 Spring 2012

So I first heard the lecture. This is from lecture 21 at about 40m 28s into the recording:

So Honecker is ousted after advocating the use of force against unarmed demonstrators. At this point a new government under the leadership of Egon Krenz comes into power. But it has no coherent strategy. It is beset by sort of rising popular demonstrations and has no sort of solution at hand for dealing with them.

In exasperation an East German government spokesperson who is being interviewed actually by Tom Brokaw, an American correspondent, in November 1989 says that the Berlin Wall can be opened up.

And this was a decision that the government spokesperson takes without any higher authorization. He was not authorized by the Politburo. A bureaucrat who's responsible for dealing with the media simply said that the gates of the Berlin Wall could be opened and that people can move freely to the West.

This announcement which was not intended to be an announcement of policy but was a sort of haphazard response to a journalist's question leads throngs of East Germans to climb -- to come to the Berlin Wall to clamor for it to be opened so that they can pass freely to the West.

Wikipedia Article on Tom Brokaw

The Wikipedia article on Brokaw says the following:

Brokaw scored a major coup when, on November 9, 1989, he was the first English-language broadcast journalist to report opening of the Berlin Wall. Brokaw attended a televised press conference organized in East Berlin by Günter Schabowski, press spokesman for East German Politburo, which had just decided to allow East Berliners to cross to the West without prior approval. When Schabowski was asked when this epoch-making freedom would take effect, he glanced through his notes, then said, "sofort, unverzüglich" ("immediately, without delay"), touching off a stampede of East Berliners to the Wall. Brokaw subsequently obtained an interview with Schabowski who when pressed repeated his "immediately" statement. Later that evening Brokaw reported from the west side of Brandenburg Gate on this announcement and pandemonium that had broken out in East Berlin because of it.

Article from the Harvard Crimson

Brokaw made a public appearance at Harvard in November 2014, reported on by The Harvard Crimson, and said that Schabowski didn't really have the discretion to make that statement.

Brokaw had previously scheduled an interview with Günter Schabowski, a then-official of the Socialist Unity Party of Germany, for after the press conference. The interview became of global significance after Schabowski accidently announced that East Germans were free to travel through the wall to West Germany

“He didn’t know what the hell he was talking about,” Brokaw said of Schabowski’s statement.

Wikipedia Article on Riccardo Ehrman

The article currently says that it was Riccardo Ehrman who asked the question at the press conference and this is what one finds as well in the Riccardo Ehrman Wikipedia article.

Riccardo Ehrmann (born 4 November 1929 in Florence) is a retired Italian journalist whose question at a government press conference in the former East Germany is said to have precipitated the end of the Berlin Wall.

Linked from the article on Ehrman is an article from Time and one from The Wall Street Journal.

The article from The Wall Street Journal seems to be about whether it was actually journalist Peter Brinkmann who asked the question of Schabowski.

I don't have access to The Wall Street Journal, but I did read the article from Time.

Time Magazine Article: Berlin Wall: Was the Fall Engineered by the GDR?

The Time magazine article speaks about how Ehrman related in an interview that he got a telephone call from the East German state news agency specifically asking him to ask that question during the news conference.

Kirchner, Stephanie (2009-04-19). "Berlin Wall: Was the Fall Engineered by the GDR?". Time. ISSN 0040-781X. Retrieved 2019-03-12.

In the interview, broadcast on April 16 in Germany, Ehrmann said: "The question concerning the travel law: that was no coincidence." He had received a "mysterious phone call," he said, from the "submarine" — a reference to the conference room of the East German state news agency ADN. Although Ehrmann in the interview didn't reveal the identity of the caller, he has since been identified as Gunter Potschke, general director of the ADN and a personal friend of Ehrmann's.

The Time article says that historians find this version of events plausible and specifically mentions Hans-Hermann Hertle as saying that he wondered about whether it was planned when it occurred. On the other hand historian Manfred Wilke says that the East German Communist Party was in disintegration and so things could be quite haphazard.

Jjjjjjjjjj (talk) 06:54, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

I just made some edits to Berlin Wall and also to Tom Brokaw:
Diff on Berlin Wall 22:53, 18 June 2019
Diff on Tom Brokaw 22:54, 18 June 2019
It's possible that more attention will go to this topic as the 30th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall approaches in November of 2019.
Also, if people are interested in getting a transcript of the lecture by Daniel Sargent along with the audio the transcripts are now publicly available on my website:
UC Berkeley - HIST 186 - 2012 Spring - Sargent - International and Global History Since 1945 - Lecture 21 - The New World Order - 01h 22m 08s
Jjjjjjjjjj (talk) 22:59, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Lack of citation + ideological and unsubstantiated assertion.

In the article it is written:

"Indoctrination of Marxism-Leninism became a compulsory part of school curricula, sending professors and students fleeing to the West."

There are 2 problems with this proposition:

1) There is no source cited / no evidence of this in the proposition. Citation is needed.

2) The term "indoctrination" is ideological and takes a political side; having negative valence. Marxism-leninism was indeed a compulsory subject of study, which was *teached* in schools. Just like Darwinism (Theory of Evolution) and Newtonianism (theory of gravitation) are both compulsory subjects teached in western schools (as much as they were in the Eastern Bloc). But no-one would say that compulsory teaching of the theory of evolution and the theory of grativation in schools is "indoctrination".

The use of the word is political and showcases anti-socialist prejudice from the part of the writer of the article. In order to maintain Wikipedia neutral and independent; I suggest to change the wording of the sentence to the following:

"Marxism-Leninism became a compulsory part of school curricula". (with a citation added).

This way, the proposition would have the same meaning; without using ideological and partisan words that do not provide neutral information.

Thank you and have a nice day.

2A02:120B:2C73:4150:81D3:7417:F221:1718 (talk) 22:50, 30 April 2019 (UTC) Riccardo Primavesi; 01.05.2019 00:50

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2019

2600:387:6:807:0:0:0:55 (talk) 02:16, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

x to y

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. NiciVampireHeart 13:35, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

84.138.244.88 (talk) 16:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)== 30th Anniversary ==

Is there going to be a Main Page mention of the end of the Wall on the anniversary? Jackiespeel (talk) 14:43, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Change link: Nail, Norbert. "Meine Mauer – Deutsche Bilder aus der Vergangenheit" [My Wall — German Pictures from the past] (in German). University of Marburg.

New link: Norbert Nail, "Meine Mauer – Deutsche Bilder aus der Vergangenheit" [My Wall — German Pictures from the past, 1962-1990] https://norbert-nail.de/

Semi-protected edit request on 18 December 2020

Under Feature Films.....please add Escape from East Berlin (1962) Director: Robert Siodmak Writing Credits: Gabrielle Upton, Peter Berneis, Millard Lampell

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055962/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt Ohiomothball (talk) 00:46, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 14:27, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

measurements don't match reference

Hi, the measurements of the wall's length don't match the source you have cited: [5]. Does anyone watch this page and know what's going on there? IBE (talk) 17:39, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any discrepancies. The dimensions are the same as in the source, which seems to be official and reliable. Berlin/Berlin 43.1 km, Berlin/East Germany 111.9 km, and total 155.0 km.Alandeus (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

external links

Change the present link into: Nail, Norbert. "Meine Mauer – Deutsche Bilder aus der Vergangenheit" [My Wall—German Pictures from the past] (in German): https://norbert-nail.de/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.134.67.119 (talk) 18:21, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

"Secondary Response" Neutrality

The section under "Secondary Response" seems to assert that the wall and its effects were beneficial to East Germany and the East German people. Addidtionally, such assertions as "in spite of discontent with the wall, economic problems caused by dual currency and the black market were largely eliminated" are uncited. Further, only a brief mention of the shooting of refugees fleeing the Communist state is made. The wall is merely called a "propaganda disaster" for the East German government and the Soviets. HappyJake (talk) 14:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The "Secondary Response" section says that the wall stabilised the East German regime and the East German economy, which is not surprising as that was the purpose it was built for. This interpretation is shared almost unanimously also by Western commentators and historians. The section doesn't make a judgement if it was a good or a bad thing to stabilise the East German government, it just says that the wall had such an effect which is true regardless. Neither does it make a judgement if it was beneficial or damaging for the people of East Germany. So I can't see how neutrality is violated.
The facts that hundreds of people were killed on purpose at the wall, that it prevented freedom of movement for East Germans, and that there were numerous escape attempts, are described in detail in several paragraphs in the page. I wouldn't call that a "brief mention". Anorak2 (talk) 18:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

"The front of the convoy arrived at the outskirts of Berlin just before noon, to be met by Clay and Johnson, before parading through the streets of Berlin to an adoring crowd." - this wording is in no way neutral —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.249.91.109 (talk) 06:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

"Western powers used it [the wall] in propaganda as a symbol of communist tyranny": According to the New Oxford American Dictionary, "propaganda" is now a chiefly derogatory word meaning "information of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view." While perhaps a pejoration of earlier definitions, it is the most commonly accepted and understood one in American English today. Applied to the current context, it isn't "propaganda" if it's the truth. While I think few people would see the wall as anything less sinister than a symbol of communist tyranny, I propose a more neutral phrasing that reads: "Western powers proffered it [the wall] as evidence of communist tyranny..." That is, it was held out as evidence, not that it *was* evidence on the one hand, and not that it was biased or misleading "propaganda" on the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Philomathean (talk • contribs) 16:00, 2 June 2013 (UTC)



Different parts of the world have different education policies that they use. There are some places where they focus on the betterment of the best while in other places; they focus on the uplifting of the weakest. These are namely the West and the East respectively. Despite the differences in the systems if education, the items that are learnt are similar. With this, east or west, the education is always the vital component. Cording to the researchers, they say that Western education is far better than the eastern education. Others say that the eastern is better than the western. I tend to agree with both but not on all aspects.

Whether the west or the east, I believe that the education is always the most important aspect and denominator. For example, the west believes in the betterment of the best. With this, the strong children, or the intellectually able are given top priority and act as a denominator for success. The better men of the best encourages them to even achieve more in the world. There are notable people who have been gifted intellectually. Ignoring them or failing to recognize their strengths and potent tends to discourage them. The misgiving of this policy is that it tends to concentrate less on the intellectually weak students. Those who are weak tend to be ignored by the system. This demoralizes them as their hidden potentials are somehow ignored. This system is however faster than the eastern system. The students are able

The eastern is not left behind. It tends to concentrate more on the weak students as compared to the strong ones. They believe in the betterment of the whole system as a whole. This gives room for such attributes as innovation and invention by the students. This has the advantage in that it gives room to initiative by the students. They are bettered in their studies. The misgiving of this is that it takes more time to introduce new things as all students must understand the concepts before proceeding to ither activities....(17) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malha10 (talk • contribs) 15:14, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

The Springsteen concert

The information on the Springsteen concert in not completely correct. There were 500 000 people in attendance and send on tv and radio. ( not just tv). There was a 2 minute delay on the tv and radio so the authorities could censure anything Springsteen said. So the Speach only got to the 500 000 in attendance. It never got through to the tv and radio listeners. Springsteens original speach was ” in the hopes that all Walls comes down in the future”. This was changed to barriers as Springsteens translator was afraid of going to jail, so he asked Springsteen to change the Word ” Wall” to ” barrier ” Which Springsteen did. Tickets for this concert were 20 East Mark. A big amount for EastBerliners at that time. When 160 000 or 165 000 tickets sold out immidiately and people were met with the comment the concert is sold out, the people outside went Berserk and the promotors had to take down all fences Because They were afraid people might get hurt in the enourmous gate crashing that followed. So at last 340 000 more people entered the ground making it 500 000 in attendance. Springsteen was paid 1 340 000 Ost Mark for this concert. 1000 000 for performance and 340 000 for the tv and radio rights. This made it easier on the East German economy as he in 1988 Springsteen had a guarantee fee of 1 million USD for a Stadium concert. However Springsteen could afford that as he made 157 million USD between 1987 and 1989. I believe it is absolutely wrong to take up David Hasselhoffs free concert at 31 st of Decemer 1989 as the Wall was allready down the 9 th of November 1989 . So he had nothing with the Berlin Wall to do at all. David Bowies concert in West Berlin has importance especially as the song ” Heroes” is about a couple from different sides of the Wall. So it had importance. But it was Held in the safety of West Berlin. Springsteens concert was Held 8 km from the Berlin Wall a safety precaution so that noone would climb the walls after the concert. And delivering that Anti Wall speach in the middle of East Berlin was gutsy. So the only concert Held of importance in East Berlin was the Springsteen concert. Peter7777ab (talk) 09:26, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 10:51, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 20 August 2018 and 14 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Btmatthe. Peer reviewers: Btmatthe.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 September 2018 and 6 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ballard8.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 11:06, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Berlin Wall Crisis

Why is there no section for the Berlin Wall Crisis in 1961?! The crisis even has it's own Page but not a single link!? Needs section for Berlin Wall Crisis of 1961.

Tschau, Dwightol102 (talk) 19:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Berlin wall

discussing the berlin wall 41.115.105.122 (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2022

66.204.73.248 (talk) 14:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

please let me edit I found more info to edit it

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Lede para. 1

Er…as explain further down in the lede, the wall was erected after thousands fled the GDR for the west. So how come para. 1 gives no indication of the real purpose behind it, instead choosing to major on what the Communist leaders portrayed it as? I know that anything remotely related to current affairs has to have a leftist slant on Wikipedia (that’s obvious to anyone with more than half a brain) and that anything right wing is frowned upon by a whole array of editors who of course know better, but hasn’t what has happened in this article taken the customary Wiki-bias more than a bit far? Boscaswell talk 21:09, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Uniform requirements

An uncited section of this article claims that allied personnel were required to wear uniforms when travelling between Checkpoints Alpha and Bravo. This is not accurate. For US military, uniforms (with nametags removed) were required for travel into East Berlin through checkpoint Charlie. Uniforms were not required between Berlin and Helmstedt. Also, Not only Soviet., but DDR manned the checkpoints. American military were required to insure that the person to whom the gave their papers (called "flag orders") was a Soviet officer. I did the drive a few times myself (1968-1970). Lineagegeek (talk) 21:31, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Took care of this. Don't think I saw anyone in uniform traveling when my family did back in the day. Alandeus (talk) 15:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2023

Change: "Over the next few weeks, the likes of souvenir hunters chipped away parts of the Wall." This sentence appears at the end of the introduction section. It is not grammatically correct. You could change to: "Over the next few weeks, (impromptu/would be/unofficial/unsanctioned) souvenir hunters chipped away parts of the Wall." "The likes of" is a comparative phrase, and is not being used to compare anyone in the original. Souvenir hunters the likes of which had never been seen is another option but is subjective so shouldn't be used in a historical write-up. Thank you! 72.138.110.218 (talk) 18:14, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

 Done Actualcpscm (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

"The trains traveled only at night"

this is wrong. The British military train traveled during the day.i personally traveled on it three times. The return trip left West Berlin in the morning and returned late afternoon on the same day. Melanie Vaughan 176.140.22.175 (talk) 15:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=The History Channel website> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=The History Channel website}} template (see the help page).

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