Talk:Battle of Sidi Barrani

Untitled

This article should include years as well as month and day dates. Dave Dufour — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davedufour (talk • contribs) 15:42, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

CE

Made some additions and altered citations to sfn, hope no-one minds.Keith-264 (talk) 08:25, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Number of Italian forces involved

According to the infobox, the Italian forces in this battle numbered "150,000 soldiers, 1,600 guns, 600 tanks (mostly tankettes), 331 aircraft", but this is the same figure that shows in the Operation Compass page infobox: those were the overall Italian forces involved in Operation Compass, and I highly doubt that all of them were involved in the battle of Sidi Barrani. According to Enzo Biagi, "La Caporetto della Marmarica" (booklet n. 3 "Le decisioni irrevocabili" of the series "La seconda guerra mondiale"), the Italian forces in the area of Sidi Barrani numbered about 40,000, distributed as follows: the Libyan Corps (general Gallina) over a 35-km front spanning between Maktila and Nibeiwa; the 4th Blackshirt Division "3 gennaio" (general Merzari), as a reserve, occupying Sidi Barrani (at a distance of about 20 kms from the Libyan Corps); on the second line, in Sofafi (30 kms west of Nibeiwa), the 63rd Infantry Division "Cirene" (general Spatocco) of the XXI Corps (general Dalmazzo).--Olonia (talk) 17:14, 8 December 2015 (UTC) Update: according to this other source, the Italians involved numbered 60,000. Also this.--Olonia (talk) 01:49, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the amendments but can you add page numbers?Keith-264 (talk) 08:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

How does it look now?Keith-264 (talk) 09:11, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Chapter 6 – Victory at Sidi Barrani see here for map.Keith-264 (talk) 09:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Page numbers are (Biagi) 167-168. Shouldn't Italian guns and tanks still be mentioned, somehow, in the Infobox? Maybe "part of 1,600 guns" and "part of 600 tanks and tankettes", like in Battle of Beda Fomm the Allied casualties are reported as "part of 1,928 9 December 1940 – 9 February 1941".--Olonia (talk) 09:29, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm not sure how informative 'part of...' is since it's really saying 'not...' but if that's all we can find it might have to do. What would really help is an Italian-speaker with the Italian official history. I've had a delve into Long who is more informative than I expected but the sources and the article don't really treat Sidi Barrani the place as different from the area of operations. I'll keep looking. Keith-264 (talk) 10:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

I know, the problem is that one might get the wrong impression, from the Infobox, that there were no tanks and guns on the Italian side.--Olonia (talk) 12:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Everything in the infobox ought to be in the main text and cited so we can't rely on guessing. Keith-264 (talk) 14:34, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Found a source for the battle but inside Sidi Barrani there seems to have been the 4th Blackshirt Division plus one of the Libyan divisions plus lots of stragglers.Keith-264 (talk) 16:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Cannon

@Noclador: Cannon is an obsolete term in English; they are artillery, guns and howitzers; in this case cannon would be an archaism describing a muzzle-loading artillery piece. Better to translate rather than transliterate. NB this article is in BritEng, not AmEng. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

They are not artillery, but infantry units. As they were anti-tank units, maybe instead of "Cannons Company" we use "Anti-tank Company"? noclador (talk) 20:55, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Greetings; if you want Italian nomenclature best to keep the Italian words and perhaps a translation on first use, if the word isn't obvious to an English speaker; in that case gun company would be better than cannon. If it's customary in Italian unit titles to use " " rather than so be it. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 20:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

• Wrote this and got an edit conflict. If they are anti-tank units I think anti-tank would be better. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 20:59, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

The 47/32 mod. 1935 were introduced as infantry guns, but quickly became the anti-tank gun of choice for 1940-1941. We can rename them: "Gun Company", as that's the closest to the original Italian meaning. noclador (talk) 21:28, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Order of Battle section

@Keith-264:@AustralianRupert: regarding the OrBat Section - it includes the full Orbat for Operation Compass (without the Italian reinforcements of 60th Infantry Division Sabratha, and VI Medium Tank Battalion). Should it be moved to Operation Compass? (at Sidi Barrani 4 of the 9 Italian divisions were involved, at Bardia another 4, at Tobruk 1, at Beda Fomm the Sabratha; the Australians weren't at Sidi Barrani, the Indians only at Sidi Barrani). Also if we move it: make it a section at Operation Compass or create its own article for it?? I will also add the Italian Air Force... once I find the fighter units, because the Italian Army's official history only lists the bombers. noclador (talk) 00:26, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I'd put it in Compass. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 00:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

G'day, yes, I think putting it in the Operation Compass article would be the best solution. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:11, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Done. See: Operation Compass#Orders of battle. noclador (talk) 06:35, 29 November 2019 (UTC)