Talk:Battle of Huliaipole

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Re: Scope and title of this article[edit]

This article was created by Baba Mica (talk · contribs) back in June 2022, as the result of a decision to split information about the war from the article about Huliaipole. Its title "Battle of Huliaipole" was conceived as a temporary measure, but this title has no basis in any of the cited sources, which as far as I know never describe the situation in Huliaipole as a "battle".

I continued contributing to the article with this in the back of my mind, but I'm starting to think that this needs addressing sooner rather than later. Russian and Ukrainian forces are currently massing in Melitopol and Huliaipole respectively, with a number of sources predicting an imminent offensive in Zaporizhzhia Oblast. (Obviously Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, so I want to focus on what has already happened, not what may happen. This is just what spurred me to open this discussion.)

As such, I'm bringing this up here to discuss not just the title, but the scope of this article. While the fighting around Huliaipole has certainly been notable - being the centre of attention in a number of articles - it is by no means unique. The same skirmishes that have affected Huliaipole have also affected Orikhiv on the Ukrainian side, as well as Polohy and Vasylivka on the Russian side. (To only name the largest cities)

Going off what Super Dromaeosaurus (talk · contribs) suggested in the previous discussion, I propose that this article be renamed to Zaporizhzhia campaign (per Southern Ukraine campaign and Eastern Ukraine campaign) and its content be retuned to focus more broadly on the frontline through Zaporizhzhia Oblast - which has remained largely unmoved since the outbreak of the conflict.

As this is quite a big and potentially controversial proposal, I would appreciate any comments people have on this and, if there's consensus for the change, would also appreciate a helping hand in any rewrites that need to happen. (Pinging other article contributors: Baba Mica — Super Dromaeosaurus — Keith D — Dawsongfg — SilverSzymonPL — Jebiguess — Sneeuwschaap — RadioactiveBoulevardier — Prolog — Yulia Romero) --Grnrchst (talk) 12:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Super Ψ Dro 14:46, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would prefer a title like “Zaporizhzhia Oblast during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine” or “Zaporizhzhia Oblast sector” or something like that. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC) RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the title "Zaporizhzhia Oblast during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine", I'm not sure how well that would disambiguate with articles like Russian occupation of Zaporizhzhia Oblast. As this would be focused on a military conflict in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, I would like the title to be somewhat clear about that. As for "Zaporizhzhia Oblast sector", I wouldn't be sure what this meant just looking at it.

Other options for a title could be "Zaporizhzhia front" or "Zaporizhzhia contact line", which are already used in a number of the cited sources. I'd personally prefer the first of these two options. -- Grnrchst (talk) 09:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If an offensive in Zaporizhzhia Oblast begins, we'll certainly need the article "Zaporizhzhia Oblast campaign". But wouldn't it be better to make it de novo? If we retune this article, majority of content about Huliaipole will be lost. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 03:18, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I was thinking if there does turn out to be a Ukrainian offensive, then that could be in a separate article titled something like "Zaporizhzhia counteroffensive" (per 2022 Ukrainian eastern counteroffensive and 2022 Ukrainian southern counteroffensive). But I'm open to suggestions for retitling such an article.

And I wasn't considering removing the majority of the content about Huliaipole, just focusing on other parts of the frontline too. Just for example, there are a lot of sources where Huliaipole isn't centred, but is reported to have been shelled as part of a Russian attack against many frontline towns. One of the more recent ones reports this:

In the Zaporizhzhia direction, the [Russian forces] shelled the settlements of Vremivka in the Donetsk Region and Zelene Pole, Novopil, Novodarivka, Malynivka, Huliaipole, Dorozhnianka, Huliaipilske, Charivne, and Mali Shcherbaky in the Zaporizhzhia Region.[1]

There are also some sources that, while mentioning Huliaipole, focus more on other towns like Orikhiv.[2] But the scope of this article means that the details about Orikhiv are neglected in favor of its mention of Huliaipole.

So what I'm proposing is less "cut out content about Huliaipole" and more "adding content about other equally notable frontline towns". --Grnrchst (talk) 09:16, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Zaporizhzhia campaign works well in the scope of the frontline itself - it has been relatively fluid with minor changes in the past nine months, and throughout the article, we can make subsections about the cities of Huliaipole, Orikhiv, Vasylivka, Polohy, and Tokmak. Each of these cities faced major battles in March, and large amounts of shelling since then. As per other commenters, if an offensive begins, it's as simple as Ukrainian Zaporizhzhia counteroffensive. Jebiguess (talk) 20:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Jebiguess; @Super Dromaeosaurus: I've continued to update this article since this discussion, but haven't yet moved it to Zaporizhzhia front, as changing the scope would take more work than I as a single editor can pull off. I have attempted to broaden the coverage in recent months, but earlier sections of the article are still largely focused on Huliaipole. Would either of you be able to help with retooling this article so we can proceed with moving it? Cheers. -- Grnrchst (talk) 10:11, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree anymore with changing the scope of the article. I think the article on the current Ukrainian counteroffensive is appropriately covering the intense fighting occurring on the front. Fighting prior to the counteroffensive was pretty limited and it can be covered in the individual articles on the battles of Orikhiv, Vuhledar and of this town in my opinion. So I'd leave everything as is right now, because unlike back then we now have an article covering fighting in the Zaporizhzhia front. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:25, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, in that case, would you be able to help with moving relevant information over to those articles? For example, there's a good amount of information on Orikhiv here that could be better utilised over at Battle of Orikhiv. -- Grnrchst (talk) 10:55, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Super Dromaeosaurus in not wanting to change the scope of the article. I will of course help with moving sections of the article to other relevant articles so this one can be about Huliaipole and surrounding villages. Jebiguess (talk) 23:07, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit of a long discussion, and I was directed here after it seems to have slowed down so I can't tell - what exactly was the consensus? I'm thinking of merging Battle of Orikhiv into this as the Zaporizhzhia campaign or something like that, but I dunno if that was actually the conclusion to the discussion here. HappyWith (talk) 22:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

excessive citations?[edit]

starting in the november 2022 sections, the article seems to have been using far more citations than it needs to. for example, one of the sentences in the june 2023 section has eighteen citations attached to it. i am not sure if this is necessary BWludXM4 (talk) 02:29, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shelling[edit]

Like 90% of this article is just day-by-day reporting of every shelling on the city. Can't we just condense this to a few sentences about "Russian forces have heavily shelled Huliaipole and neighboring frontline settlements, total civilian casualties are [number]"? As is, this article is almost unreadable - I have to scan through the day-by-day stuff to find anything about the actual military situation. HappyWith (talk) 01:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have scanned through the article. While there are lots of news sources that are to effect reporting on the shelling, it is difficult for me to see much of substance in this article once one removes that which falls to WP:NOTNEWS. It could be summed up in one or two brief paragraphs. Ultimately, that does not look to be sufficient to justify a stand-alone article. Consequently, the information retained should be merged into a higher level article and/or into the Huliaipole article. However, the coverage elsewhere might also be sufficient that there is no material of consequence to be merged. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:33, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A proposal that was previously discussed but sort of fizzled out for unclear reasons was to create a Zaporizhzhia campaign article that covers this, Battle of Orikhiv, and the other parts of the frontline in the southeast. You might be right about there being nothing of consequence, though - I’ll have to consider that more. HappyWith (talk) 02:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]