Talk:BYU Cougars

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National-champtionship Count[edit]

I don't understand how national championships are counted. Most notably, right after it's mentioned that BYU racquetball has nine national championships, the national championships sections omits racquetball. Is this consistent across all college-sports pages? How was this determined? Thmazing (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe this is an intentional omission, but instead no one has bothered to add it. Feel free to modify/expand! ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 23:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

BYU Rugby Championship[edit]

As I understand it, though I'm not a rugby fan myself, there appears to have been a rift in college rugby this last year. The closest analogy would be something like NIT vs. NCAA fighting for the "right" to call themselves the championship organization, with basically all the top-ranked teams leaving for the Varsity Cup. A perusal of sources, good and less good:

The only sources I saw that mentioned a dispute over the title were these, but they are clear that if nothing else the BYU win is at least considered as one of perhaps two national championships:

  • "Cal could certainly be in the running this year if it wins the Varsity Cup final against BYU in Provo, Utah Saturday, as the Bears will be competing in their fourth-straight CRC this June. But there would surely be a lot of detractors. 'The CRC and Varsity Cup aren't true National Championships,' they'll say." (http://www.rugbymag.com/college-premier-league-/7923-red-wolves-chasing-history.html)
  • "A separate and, according to USA Rugby, legitimate championship" (referring to the traditional championship), "By the time the 2013 postseason would get underway, 15 of the original 31 Premier Division teams would be out. This led to the formation of the Varsity Cup National Championship and what would become known as the Varsity Cup Eight", "“To the people who it matters most to — the players, the administrators of the two schools, the fans — it was their national championship,” said Kjar.", (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865580127/USA-Rugby-What-BYU-won--was-a-mythical-championship.html)

In summary, there are two rugby national championships this year. Undisputed is that the top-ranked teams were part of the Varsity Cup, not the previously dominant championship, by choice, not by lack of talent. Of course, both championships are going to call the other one illegitimate or phoney, but either way, it's clear that the Varsity Cup was covered by news media as being a national championship. As for the USA Rugby Championship, I'm struggling to find many sources that even mention it (although it hasn't yet been played, so perhaps there will be more in the future). Either way, per common consensus of sources, BYU did indeed win "the" or "one of the" national championships. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 02:26, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Araignee - Let me start by commending you for taking this issue to the talk page, and for the research you have done to try to get up to speed on the subject. There is certainly a rift in college rugby. I am knowledgeable about college rugby - you can see my user page for examples of my work. While a lot of what you write and cite about has some accuracy in it, there are a few important things worth clarifying:
  1. Take a look at the website for USA Rugby, and the website for D1A Rugby. They state that Life University defeated Saint Mary's in the national championship on May 18. USA Rugby - the body that governs all rugby in this country - does not recognize the Varsity Cup as a national championship. In fact, a representative of USA Rugby, responding to BYU calling itself the 2013 national champion, stated that BYU is claiming a "mythical championship".
  2. Analyzing the six the sources you cite above in support of the Varsity Cup's claim to be the national championship: one comes from the Varsity Cup itself, one comes from Cal which is one of the teams that spearheaded the creation of the Varsity Cup, one comes from a neutral source (Rugby Mag) but it's basically a quote from the Cal head coach, and three are from local news sources that closely cover Cal or BYU and that appear to be restating language from a BYU or Cal press release. So three of these are clearly not independent sources, and the remaining three were by news outlets that are either too close to the teams they are covering to cover the subject objectively or too busy to do their own research. Not to criticize you or your research, but the larger point here is that those who refer to the Varsity Cup as the national championship are those who have organized this tournament. I have not seen any independent and knowledgeable sources referring to the BYU/Cal game as the national championship. My take on what you observe in the press is that the Varsity Cup won the PR battle against USA Rugby - which speaks to a (legitimate) gripe of the Varsity Cup teams - that USA Rugby does not do enough to promote college rugby competitions in the media, bring in sponsorship money, etc.
  3. You mention that "basically all the top-ranked teams" play in the Varsity Cup and then claim that this assertion is indisputed. Allow me to clarify. According to the latest rankings from Rugby Mag that I could find, the Varsity Cup participants were ranked #1, #4, #6, #7, #11, #16, #18, and #21. On the other hand, 6 of the top 10 ranked teams play in Division 1A, the competition that is the pathway for the official national championship. So both tournaments have high quality teams. I don't think any independent and knowledgeable people dispute that point.

To summarize - there were two college rugby post-season tournaments with excellent teams in 2013. One was the official D1A national championship, organized and recognized by USA Rugby. The other was the Varsity Cup, which was a well packaged and well promoted event with high quality teams, and which calls itself a national championship, but that doesn't make it so. Barryjjoyce (talk) 03:39, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks for your input, too! Not being too knowledgeable on the subject, I have to rely directly on the sources, just as required by Wikipedia. As far #1, I did see/mention that "mythical championship" source. That being said, the "real" one is hard to find any coverage. Out of the first 20 or so Google News results, only one (http://www.digtriad.com/sports/article/285108/13/Field-Set-For-USA-Rugby-D1A-National-Championship) references the USA Rugby one, one is referencing the "mythical" source, and 8 reference the Varsity Cup (in future or past tense). Also, here's one I found through that, direct from RugbyMag, and not quotes: http://www.rugbymag.com/index.php/news/colleges/varsity-cup/7917-on-campus-venue-adds-to-varsity-cup-drama.html
Also, of course USA Rugby is going to say they are the real one. They have no incentive to admit there are even two. But again, media coverage pulls the scale toward the Varsity Cup. I agree, many of the sources I found were local ones, but mostly with some form of reputation, and bottom line: they were the only sources I could find :)
As for "all top-ranked teams", I agree, I was misled on that. The Varsity Cup seems to imply that, of course, but your ranking there clearly shows otherwise, so that's my mistake.
Ultimately, though, again the weight of coverage over USA Rugby ALONG with the near-consistent statement by most reliable sources (and of course, some unreliable ones that don't matter) that it is a national championship is enough to call it one. No one's claiming it was the D1A championship, though, and I'd objectively say there were two of them, much like the NIT vs. NCAA back and forth (albeit a relatively new and probably reconcilable rift). I've made that more clear in the text of the rugby section. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 18:51, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Araignee -- You make a good point about following Wikipedia policy and relying on published sources. And I've looked through two more rugby magazines - Rugby Mag and This Is American Rugby - which do seem to have come around to the two national championships idea. Take a look at my latest changes. It's sort of a compromise position. The new version tries to convey that, while BYU did not win the official USA Rugby national championship, they won the Varsity Cup which some consider equivalent to a national championship. I also added some content and cites about what a great season BYU had - undefeated season and consensus #1 in the end-of-season polls. These impressive accomplishments should not be lost in the endless debate over the Varsity Cup status. Hopefully we have arrived or are getting close to a consensus version that is accurate and acceptable. Again, my compliments to you regarding the professionalism and class with which you have handled yourself throughout this debate. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:35, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brilliant, looks more than fair to me! I appreciate you working with me on that...particularly with me being a rugby know-little. ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 13:27, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Orphaned references in BYU Cougars[edit]

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of BYU Cougars's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Directory":

  • From Randy L. Bott: BYU Alumni Directory (Restricted access), BYU, retrieved 2008-06-01
  • From List of Brigham Young University alumni: "BYU Alumni Directory". BYU. Retrieved 2008-06-01.[dead link]

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 23:58, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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