Talk:Asmahan/Archive 3

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Identity section and other stuff

Wouldn't it help if we added an "Identity" section? Sherifa Zuhur discusses this at length in her book Asmahan's Secrets: Woman, War, and Song, pp.12-18. The pages are available online [1]. This article is currently not in good shape, so I suggest to those who want to edit the article to use this book and other books to add information or correct and clarify existing information. The issue of her nationality is indeed an important one. Obviously she is Syrian (al-Atrash family), but she also lived much of her life in Egypt. I don't see a problem if in the lead we stated she was a Syrian-Egyptian or an Egyptian with Syrian origins. I will attempt to work on this article every now and then. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:18, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


Al Ameer, 3O supported this version: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299901100&oldid=299900516

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=299908041&oldid=299907400

Any editing you are doing must be based on that version. Or the original version before the edit war. Not Arab Cowboys twisted version where he is undermining everything Syrian about her even deleting the word "returned" and "hometown" when she returned to her hometown in Syria. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:53, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Al Ameer:

  • 3O (HelloAnyong) does not support the version that SD alleges above. Here's how 3O Annyong has described SD's version:
"I'll agree that these edits (SD's edits) took it a little too far. But I've opened an RfC, so we'll see what other people say. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:58, 2 July 2009 (UTC)"
and,
"Since you said that my latest edit, post cleanup is okay, I've updated the link in the RfC to this one. But now I think it's time to cool down, step away from this article for a bit, and let the opinions come in. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
"everyone should refrain from editing the article" so why is it that the article is not reverted back to before the edit war? So we can start from there? Why is it your own made up article that we must let be the default one?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


3O did indeed support the version I posted above, the one Arab Cowboy is quoting is another version. Any edit of the article must be based on the original article before the edit war or the evolutionized my version, which is based on the original version only that I have added references and re written some sentences, but the basic fact in my version is virtually the same as in the original. I have not twisted the facts as Arab Cowboy has. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
so you wish. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 08:20, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

So I wish? no, this is not what I wish, this is what 3O supports: "the talk page; i advocate that one" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299901100&oldid=299900516 ". I supported [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=299898043&oldid=299882338 this one" http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=299908041&oldid=299907400 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:36, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

That was before Annyong admitted that he was mistaken and had not seen your other edits within the article. He was referring only to the lead. He then changed his mind to this one. I will not speak for Annyong since he's still alive and kicking. He can speak for himself. But, regardless, what you call the "original" article is meaningless. I do not know or care to know what the so-called "original" article was. It contained no sources at all. The only thing that matters is the truth and facts supported by reliable sources. Asmahan and Farid were Egyptian of Syrian-Lebanese origin and their adopted homeland was Egypt. That's the only truth and you cannot change it no matter how hard you try. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:06, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
*facepalm* The last one I supported was this version. In the interest of keeping things calm here, I didn't support the three edits made by SD after that. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Refraining from editing for 2 days (lengthened for 5 days)

I propose refraining from editing for the next two days until I finish my edits to the article. I'll take into consideration all the critics and comments. After that we can discuss problematic sentences.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Best of luck. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 20:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
AC deleted sentences I had added when you gave me permission to freely edit the article, I re-added them.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:56, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
The original statements will be readded and restructured so no repetition would occur.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:57, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I need more time with the article, plus Arab Cowboy is blocked anyway so it would be biased to edit while he can't touch the page.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 11:55, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

5 days is a long time, cant you make the edits you are working on then we can discuss them at the talkpage without editing further? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:26, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Five days is fine by me. Take all the time you need. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 13:05, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
I meant three more days. Which isn't that long actually. I think there is still the Legacy and Death section which could be expanded tremendously. I'll try today to restructure. You could in the meantime expand the Death section. I'll go on vacation on the 16th till the 19th which of course would pose some problems.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
oh boy, maybe its best you don't do your edits until you come back from your vacation then. A strong mediator is needed to watch over the article. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:12, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
And what will happen to the page in the meantime? As long as you and Arab Cowboy keep level heads and don't start edit warring again, everything should be fine. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:33, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
Although I have in the past been guilty of edit warring, I believe my intentions was good, at first to restore the original article from the falsification he implanted, and then later to keep the sourced and documented information I had added. I just hope he doesn't start anything while Diaa is on vacation. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness You could work on the Death section till as it won't pose edit conflicts anyway. Her Death was very controversial as I remember so enough sources should be somewhat available. Make yourself also familiar with {{Harvnb}} as it would be the best used here.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 15:43, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Voice characteristics

I've removed this section on a number of grounds. For one, it's entirely WP:OR. This isn't the place to reproduce or summarize Zuhur's writings, and certainly not in this length. Things like "Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak" have no place in this article. If you look at other featured class articles on singers, there is no section like this. It's pure WP:FANCRUFT meant to extol and glorify Asmahan. We're supposed to remain neutral here, and this section violated that. Phrases like "Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato" are anything but neutral. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 05:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

No objections here. I thought its was awkward but I wasn't bold enough to remove it ;) --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:05, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Text

Asmahan

Author Sherifa Zuhur has analyzed Asmahan's vocal contributions as well as providing all of the biographical details noted above. As Zuhur writes, Asmahan's voice ranged from the low contralto timbre all the way up to the upper Soprano range. This is demonstrated in the composition "Ya Tuyur" (O Birds, where her voice mimics a songbird) in which she reaches a high A with ease and brio. Asmahan was able to combine in her vocal abilities, the special characteristics of of three oriental divas' voices -- Fairuz, Umm Kulthum, and Sabah -- each quite different in tone, style and interpreation. Like Feiruz, she could render angelic tones, and she was able to use something close to the bel canto technique, among the first to adopt the western (old Italian school of singing) which contrasted to the the nasal and chest resonance technique that reigned in Arabic vocal style of the time. This was so, even though Asmahan's voice differs from Feiruz' in that she was really both a mezzo-contralto (alto) and a mezzo-soprano. Feiruz could reach high notes yet with less power than Asmahan. Asmahan showed a wide range of dynamics ranging from pianissimo to fortissimo from the bottom to the top of her range. Her voice also resembles Umm Kulthum's, not in timbre, but in the styling of those songs she performed which were written in "lawn tarab" -- or classical coloring. Finally, her vocal capacity was a bit like the singer Sabah, who had a powerful voice, and likewise utilized folk "coloring" and and who could "belt" out a song like a Broadway-style singer. Asmahan often showed phenomenally long breaths, both in long moving cadences, and where she held a high note for more than one minute.

Too much pressure (chest resonance technique) will deprive the singer from using a lot of dynamics as he will lose all the pianissimo and the bridge between the head and chest voices will be very difficult, not to mention that the legato line singing will be impossible and that the vocal range will shorten where the head register becomes weak. On the other hand the head voice technique (typical of the Western classical and operatic singing) will eliminate any chest resonance so the voice will become too sweet or artificial and consequently lose all the power and dramatic capacities required for the oriental Tarab genre

Asmahan's voice was so powerful that despite her heavy singing she was still able to use her head register and sing in a very controlled tone, even along a very demanding high pitched musical line with a very impressing and elegant Legato (the vocalization) as in the afore-mentioned " Ya Tuyur," by Mohamed El Qasabgi and in a light color of voice (reaching a high A=LA) then return to sing the medium notes and reach the low register with the typical Arabic (nasal+chest) technique. Besides the fact that she was the first Arabic singer to use the classical western technique, very few performers are able to alternate two opposed styles of interpretation and technique in one song.

Asmahan also displayed vocal agility -- an ability to switch between various musical notes in one musical sentence (like Fairuz) and she was a fast study, as noted by Zuhur.

Discussion

I'm not sure why Diaa posted this text here, but it's not getting in the article - at least, not in its current form. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 13:38, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong you answered the question. I posted it here and not on the article because in the current form it can't be posted there. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


Source problems in Early Life

I'll list here any problems I find with the sources or the refferences in the Early life section. The section is crucial for her identity.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC):

  • "The al-Atrash clan is a notorious Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s."
  1. convert the reffs to use the {{citation}} template?
  2. this is a teritary source (http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshua.M.Landis-1/Joshua_Landis_Druze_and_Shishakli.htm) could u reff the book? it has a limited preview on google books that shows the page.
  3. I can't find how it's described in the reffs as notorious. Could u please further explain that?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The Al Atrash clan section is unreffed. I might have removed a reff when restructuring, but the reffs need to get back there. (might be "Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") but direct inline citation of those is needed for verifiability.
  • "They finally arrived in Egypt where they were naturalized later on." ("Enchantment 81" "Secrets 37-38 and 98") "This needs more details, I removed it for now though. Naturalization is easily research able as it is documented by official papers. "Later on" Should be specified.
  • "Asmahan and her family were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens."(alquds.co.uk) same here.
  • "Immigration to Egypt" section needs some reffs.
Diaa, thanks for your work on the article. For the purpose of academic integrity, we cannot attribute the "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely." statement to Sherifa Zuhur. I had composed this introductory statement to the paragraph, and the facts in the paragraph, clearly and without exception, converge back to it. I am not in favor of starting paragraphs with a plunge into a series of facts with no common thought. I see that many of the sections in the article now need similar introductory statements. Just an element of style. Cheers, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa.

  • The refs for the Atrash clan was there before and has been deleted, the refs are as following: Asmahan's Secrets,pp. 37-38 and 98 and Images of enchantment, pp.81
Yes could these be added inline? When u use page 37 it should be reffed there and not all pages at once.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
  • The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems.
The question is when she did get the citizenship. That's the main issue, cause where would this fit in the article?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I noticed that you moved and kept this section, and also added "according to Shefa"Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career and Arab music would have missed out on her talent entirely"

This is false, Shefa has not said this, the reference is on page 82-84 in Images of enchantment, there is nothing there saying this, this is written and made up by AC, If you want to keep this section you should replace the first line to "Accoring to Arab Cowboy"

And also this false statement AC implanted is still in the article "Asmahan had not actually lived in the Jabal in childhood; she had spent those early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits."

This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s."

Nothing is said about that she never lived there.

In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment

The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I gave a shot at that, you can check the atrash clan section.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Egyptian citizenship

Arab Cowboy please create here a paragraph explaining how she got her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

The only clear-cut statements about the sequence of Asmahan's citizenship(s) are found in a reliable source, London-based newspaper, Al-Quds Al-Arabi. The source states: "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع الي أن تزوجت من ابن عمها الأمير حسن الأطرش فاستعادت الجنسية السورية" which can be translated to "The whole (migrant) family were granted Egyptian citizenship and continued to enjoy it, including Asmahan of course, until she married her cousin Prince Hassan al-Atrash and regained her Syrian citizenship". Sherifa Zuhur states in Asmahan's Secrets, p. 118, that "[Asmahan's] instrcutions were to refrain from crossing the (Syrian) border illegally." One could only cross a border illegally if he/she was not a citizen of said country! Zuhur then states that Hassan would agree to allow Asmahan to cross the border only as his bride. The Al-Quds Al-Arabi article also states: "ثم التقت بعد طلاقها الثاني بالممثل والمخرج الفنان أحمد سالم في فلسطين وتزوجا وكانت رغبتها الأساسية استعادت الجنسية المصرية" which can be translated to "and after her second divorce, she met with actor and director Ahmed Salim in Palestine and they were married, and her primary objective was to regain her Egyptian citizenship."
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. "Apparently" expresses doubt or guessing. Zuhur does NOT state that Asmahan was NEVER naturalized. Note: According to Zuhur's footnote to that statement, 'Alia and her children did not qualify for Egyptian citizenship in 1929 because they had not been in Egypt long enough. Egyptian law requires 10 years of residency for naturalization. The Atrashes had arrived in 1923, so in 1929 they had been in Egypt for only 6 years. By contrast, the newspaper article casts no doubt about Asmahan's Egyptian citizenship. I also have other sources that speak of Asmahan's Egyptian nationality, but they MAY not meet Wikipedia's standards on reliable sources. According to this (arguably unreliable) source, "They got the Egyptian nationality in the beginning 30s." I must also emphasize what I have said before. Citizenship is only one source of identity for a given person. Other sources, besides lineage, are their choice of belonging, and, in a case like Asmahan and Farid al-Atrash's, their contribution to the society in which they chose to live, i.e., their Egyptian Arabic singing portfolios. I think that spending any more time on this point would be an over-kill! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

The dates in the different sources conflict with one another on many issues and it is very difficult to pinpoint the sequence of events with accuracy. For example, one source states that her first marriage to Hassan occurred in 1933 (she was 15), while other sources state the marraige occurred in 1937 (at age 19); that her musical debut was at age 14 and her first Columbia Records album was agreed at age 16. The second sequence of events makes more sense; this is not original research. Most sources agree that she lived in Syria for a total of 6 years (some sources say only 3 years), which agrees more with the dates: from 1937 to 1939 or 1940, and then from 1941 to 1943 or 1944. Again, the "6 years split in two" scenario makes more sense; it is not original research.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"Makes more sense" is inherently original research. By evaluating what the sources say, you're drawing a conclusion that's not specifically stated there. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, why don't you come up with facts that are agreed by ALL the sources? There is none, and if we rely on those alone, we will have no article. "Makes more sense" does not mean original research, but means giving more weight to sources that provide the preponderence of evidence. Or, is it your job to only criticize, judge, and support statements misquoted from the sources? You have done no leg-work at all and your remarks just crowd this page unnecessarily! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:33, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I have just as much a right to speak up here as you do. In cases of conflicting data, the best way to handle it on Wikipedia is to mention that there are multiple possible stories, and mention both. If it happens to be that all sources say one thing and only one source says another, then the lone source can usually be tossed out as fringe. What's the count on the two differing theories? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I am not taking away your right to speak up here. But your last question makes my case! Why don't you do some homework and get us this count, as opposed to just act as judge? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Because I have neither the time nor the energy to work on this right now. You're the one who's already done all the research and has all the information. I'd urge you to assume good faith and realize that I'm just trying to make this page better than it currently is, and based on my current schedule, this is the only way I can do that. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:01, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, as you may recall, I assumed good faith in you when you were first invited to this discussion by SD. Unfortunately, your own actions proved me wrong. You supported SD's misquoting the sources, and his ridiculous sock-puppetry allegations. Moreover, you brought similarly unfounded allegations of your own and you were proven wrong. Why did you not assume good faith in User:Nefer Tweety? Your actions have stifled NT's voice on this page and probably elsewhere as they have expressed to you, and we may have lost NT for good. Have you apologized to NT since you were proven wrong? You state that you have neither the time nor energy to do research work, yet you find the time to judge, criticize, and waste my own time with your actions. Unfortunately, you have made no substantive contribution at all to this effort and have not made this page any better. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I thought we've turned a new leaf here and tried to move forward. That's what this is all about, moving forward. Can you maybe put aside our former issues and go from here? Let's also point out that you've driven Supreme Deliciousness away from here. I've moved past whatever happened before and am starting fresh. You and Diaa clearly know what's going on, and are more knowledgeable on the subject. But I'm still allowed to look at the text that is inserted - or will potentially be inserted - and comment on it. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, I will start fresh with you, Annyong, and will assume good faith one more time. I do not think I have driven SD away, although that would not be a bad thing. He's still harassing me on other articles, lol. Do you mind moving this distracting exchange away from this Talk page, to your Talk page or mine, as it serves no purpose here? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Just leave it, it's not a huge deal. I think it speaks to what has transpired on this page in the past. But the new conversation should start below. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:02, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

To clear things: Supreme Deliciousness wasn't driven off. He is currently a bit busy but will return later to reply to the questions and comments.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Closing the matter

Could supreme and Arab Cowboy propose a two paragraph Lead to be considered for the article. Information in the lead has to be reffed and available in the article body. That's why the body needed work before a lead can be created. Currently the fact that she's Egyptian isn't elaborated in the body. She lived in Egypt, had her musical debut there, had her career there, but if she's Egyptian or not isn't clear. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa,
Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited.
As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that this would be original research. Saying that there was no dual citizenship in Egypt, therefore she is Egyptian is Original Research which isn't allowed on Wikipedia. If you could create a paragraph that incorporates facts and dates saying when and how she became an Egyptian citizen I would agree to this. However in the article it isn't clear that she ever became one. So please state this below with proper references.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, this is not what I said. Please see below in new section created by yourself. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This newspaper is very controversial and shouldn't be a main source of her citizenship. This has to be stated in one of Zuhur books or any other books regarding Asmahan. According to http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html neither Asmahan nor her mother applied for the Egyptian citizenship. I therefore suggest to look for a direct source of her citizenship.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa,
I do not see how the Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper could be "very controversial"; please clarify. Articles from established newspapers are considered reliable sources by Wikipedia. On the other hand, the statement in Sherifa Zuhur's book is not clear-cut and speaks only of a certain point in time. Zuhur's actual statement in Asmahan's Secrets, p.14, was "Alia apparently did not apply for Egyptian citizenship under Law 19 of 1929, nor did Asmahan," which is a clear guessing game on the part of Zuhur. I have also noted previously that Sherifa Zuhur took great liberties with statements in her book, such as labelling Nagat al-Saghira as Syrian, although both of her parents were Egyptian citizens (I can prove that to you later). Also, Zuhur has been challenged on many fronts, at least here.
Published books are not any more reliable than respectable newspaper articles. This has been proven at least once before when SD introduced a statement from a book citing Omar Sharif's birth in Greece, when in fact Omar Sharif's own autobiography states that he was born in Alexandria.
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"Due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes and their perceived obedience to the U.S. & Israel, the paper has been censored and sometimes temporarily banned in Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Syria." This is my main concern. It's banned in Egypt and Syria. Question is why this isn't stated in another source? I mean why her citizenship isn't stated in a reliable book or scholar source.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:22, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
You have answered your own concerns, the newspapers has been censored, etc., "due to its strong criticism of the Arab regimes...," and not due to journalistic inaccuracy or unprofessionalism. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:30, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Arab Cowboy we have now two conflicting sources. One wrote three books about the subject, the other wrote a one page article in a newspaper. Both have been criticized about things not relating to the subject. One says she was naturalized, the other says she wasn't. Could u please find a reliable source that states that she was an Egyptian citizen? You can't put an analogy to the Omar Sherif case where both were books and one of them was weighed due to it being an autobiography.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:37, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, please take a long pause at the word "apparently" and the date in Zuhur's statement above. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is my answer to ACs post at the top:

"Are we going to keep the reference to Asmahan's "homeland," be it Syrian or Egyptian? I thought we had agreed to refrain from using this word. If so, I will have to expand on this issue. Also, I find the Identity section is a bit strange. I am not sure that it is necessary; I do not see other biographies having a similar section. However, if you would like to keep it, I will have a lot to say there too. We also need to bring the Voice Characteristics section back; it just needs a lot of work. I can work on it gradually cause my time is limited. As for whether she was an Egyptian or a Syrian citizen, I gather from the sources that neither Egypt nor Syria allowed for dual citizenship at the time. It is a documented fact that she became an Egyptian citizen before marriage to her cousin, Hassan. It appears that she regained Syrian citizenship on remarrying Hassan, not during the first marriage, because the sources say that, in 1941, the British instructed her to not enter Syria illegally, and she was only able to enter Syria legally when Hassan went to the border to receive her and she entered Syria as his bride (second marriage). I also gather from the sources that this is when the Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:18, 21 July 2009 (UTC)"


Answer: Homeland is where you and your family come from. Now lets see what Asmahan thought where her homeland was: page 36 and 37 in Asmahans Secrets: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 This is direct copy from the sources: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin to the Amir al-Atrash and the Druze Revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"

On Page 36 in Asmahans Secrets it sais: "Quote: "Still, it was the Jabal Druze that imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her familys residences in Turky and Beirut"

On page 19 it says "Syrian homeland"

AC says "Egyptian government attempted to withdraw her citizenship on the grounds of dual nationality, and that, faced with this choice, she left Syria and returned to Egypt, married to Ahmed Salim, to reclaim her citizenship."

Now this is very interesting, this is the exactly same thing Neefer Tewty said (surprise surprise) above and I have showed was false. Last post in this section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asmahan#Identity_Section --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought my question was addressed to Diaa, not SD. SD has stated the above gibberish over and over again. I am not interested in replying to it unless Diaa states that "homeland" is "on the table". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggested lead by Arab Cowboy

Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt)[1] was an Egyptian[2] singer and actor belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood, she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum.[3] Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Newspaper Article al-Mada, "وشاءت لها الاقدار أن ترحل في الماء أيضا في حادث غامض في ترعة طلخا على نهر النيل قرب مدينة المنصورة يوم 14- 7 - 1944"
  2. ^ Newspaper Article by Abdel-Fadil Taha 2008-05-23 Al-Quds Al-Arabi, "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع"
  3. ^ Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320.

Suggested lead by -Supreme Deliciousness

Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; November 18, 1918 – July 14, 1944) was a Syrian/Lebanese singer and actor. She was the sister of Farid al-Atrash, and a member of the al-Atrash clan, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.

(This last sentence can be rewritten so it wont be the same as in the rest of the article, and of course fell free to expand)

Sources for this is in the body text, I can ad it later if needed directly behind the sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:35, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

This is really funny! As if Asmahan never set foot in Egypt, became an Egyptian, adopted Egypt as her homeland, and did all her life's work in Egypt. As if this article is about "al-Atrash clan," and not about Asmahan and her contribution to Arab music, without which she would have been another obscure bedouin in the mountain! Good luck with that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:03, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"another obscure bedouin in the mountain" This is a racial attack against druze people. And there you are predicting the future again. As all sources show including quotes from Asmahans mouth, Syria was the only homeland she had. You are just spreading lies everywhere as we can see not only here but on other articles also: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I will not be drawn into the "homeland" debate unless I receive a greenlight from Diaa. And, no, I am not in business of predicting the future, because unlike what you claim to be, I am not "Supreme Allah". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Preferred Lead

I prefer Arab Cowboy's lead, as it gives most of the important info about Asmahan. However I suggest using Syrian-Egyptian singer. She got the Egyptian citizenship, something that is agreed on by the two parties, and she's Syrian living her early life in Suwayda and being born to a Syrian father who was the governor of Suwayda. I'll add it to the article for further discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

We must not forget her mother, Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian ?

I question the relevance of having this in the lead, specially the authenticity of it,the source is a blog which I believe is against wikipedia rules:

"she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right. Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I will not object to your choice of a Syrian-Egyptian label, on the grounds of citizenship only, and not chosen identity. The rest of that sentence will have to be omitted. On these grounds, reference to her mother will have to come later in the body of the article. On the basis of chosen or actual identity, my originally proposed sentence should stand. Just a correction, sources have shown that she did not live her early life in Swaida and her father was not the governer of Swaida. See Zuhur, p. 36. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
This is what the sources say: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." Nothing is said about that she never lived there. In asmahans secretes page 36 it also says that they had a large stone house with a servant, and also on 36-37 the explanation of here mothers and hers escape from the Jabal after the Adham Khanjar incident: http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5 And on page 81 in Images of enchantment it is written that the family returned to the Jabal, and she left after the problems with the french. http://books.google.com/books?id=Sd5g1ohkocAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Images+of+enchantment The sentence implanted by AC is false and no source show that she "did not live there" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I already corrected that sentence. No need to go back there again.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure what is unclear abour Zuhur's statement: "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s." This clearly means that not only did she not live there, but she did not even spend much time there at all! She only went there for "visits". Yes, they had a house in Swaida, that 'Alia stated was not her house, but her husband's, as they did in Lebanon and Turkey, where they actually lived in the early years of Asmahan's life. P. 38: "Alia never felt comfortable in the Jabal." P. 39: "...the Jabal, which was not her home, but her husband's." How is this not clear? Or, are we reinventing the wheel and the English language? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:29, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
"This clearly means that not only did she not live there" - no it doesn't, it means that she didn't spend much time there, not that she didn't live there. you are twisting facts to fit your agenda. ""Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period." Yes Alias home was not the Jabal she was from Hasbyia in Lebanon. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

In terms of tone, I have a problem with the lead as it stands. The line "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." really has no actual meaning. It's not something that is discussed anywhere in the article. I would much prefer something that mentions how she was actually influential to Arab music. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:46, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Not only that but other sections are made up by Ac himself, this for example: "Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

I thought about removing it, but it chalks that up to Sherifa Zuhur. I've marked that with a fact tag until we can get a source there. Saying things like "undisputedly" is certainly WP:POV. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


Diaa, there are still problems with the lead, this is sourced from a blog, which is against wikipedia rules: "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad." and also, what relevance is the nationality of some of the people she worked with to be in the lead of the article? This is the usual edits by AC to ad "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:54, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness please replace the citation needed templates

Supreme Deliciousness I humbly ask you to replace the citation needed templates on the article. Please don't remove anything if you can't find the source just leave it there for later consideration to be removed. Thank you.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:05, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Remove the blog

Arab Cowboy, Remove the blog reff please. It doesn't follow Wikipedia's guidelines. Is it reffed on Asmahan? If yes then SD leave the sentence and AC add according to some critics...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

This part is in AS page 85, "This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" write Al-Sharif." The other parts I can not confirm until I get exact quotes. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Well this would be enough. So SD take care of it, reff it and add it to the lead. This is probably what makes her notable. There are by the way allegations that Um Kalthum was the one who ordered to kill her.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Ill ad it if you want but are you sure that a sentence like that should be in the lead of the article? "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." What does this say to a normal reader who have no idea who Umm Kulthum is? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Add "known as the Arab world's most famous and distinguished singer of the 20th century." Umm Kulthoum with the propper reff tag. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:44, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, I would like the "lead paragraph" reinstated as it was before Annyong reverted it ealier today. Sources do not have to be online to be reliable. The Anthology did not have to be online and p. 85 of Asmahan's Secrets does not have to available for SD's viewing to be acceptable. All statements in the lead were accurate and agreed before my absence for 2 days. Please see my input in the Arab Cowboy's Suggestions section above as well as on your Talk page. Also, please remove the redundancy in Farid's lead paragraph that SD brought back. Please also note that there's an Atrash family branch in Egypt to which Faysal al-Atrash now belongs. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
All statements in the lead were not accurate and agreed, sources have to indeed be provided, and I question the need of mentioning a long list of people in the lead of the article who no one knows who they are, and calling them Asmahans "apprentices" without any sources. Also there is no Atrash branch in Egypt. One or a couple of people is not a branch. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
They were not Asmahan's apprentices, she was theirs. You do not even know what the word means. "Apprentice" means student, from the French "apprendre", i.e., to learn. What's wrong with that? It's even used on Farid's page, and not by me. All the names of the musicians in the lead were hyperlinked, so there's no need to redefine them. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
The info in the lead of the article must be the most important info in it, and shortened. That she was the apprentice of a long list of people who no one knows who they are is of no importance to be in the lead of the article, If it is sourced, it should be later in the article about her career where it belongs.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 11:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Please fix reff 5 to have a citation template. Add reffs to the lead, cause it seems otherwise the fight is never gonna end. AC I thought you were working on her Voice characteristics... Her being an apprentice of those should only be added if it has a good reff and not to the lead. Let's first finish this off then go over to Farid Al atrash. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 11:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I have posted my comments to you both here and on your Talk page; I am not sure what else to do to get your attention. You seem to be overlooking my suggestions while approving all of SD's demands in my absence. Why did you change the lead in Farid's page if you were not yet ready to go there? Please restore it to what it was last week until we finish Asmahan. Also, please review my suggestions on your Talk page. I will work on the Voice Characteristics section when my inputs to date have been incorporated or at least sufficiently discussed. I disagree with removing the statement about her apprenticeship from the lead. I can provide references to it if necessary, but removing it leaves the lead missing a summary statement about Egypt's influence on her singing career. I realize that you are overwhelmed with several articles, and I thank you for your efforts so far. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

all recent changes to the Farid article are small and things that have already been agreed upon here. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
agreed upon by whom, if I was absent for 2 days? mediation that listens only to one side of the case is not considered agreement! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:08, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
So what radical changes here do you not agree with? http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Farid_al-Atrash&diff=304090036&oldid=299860104 and what of them are not already in the Asmahan article?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't see anything that was agreed upon that you would be against AC. If you find a good reff for the apprentice thing we can add it to the lead. Till then though, please fill the citation needed templates.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 12:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, to name just a few examples, we had avoided using the term "homeland", and I have complied with that, but you seem have to have let it go for SD. I would not have agreed to deleting all those statements from the lead, that you had stated was your preferred lead, in a section under that heading above, prior to my absence. I would not have agreed to changing "go" to "return," because this is not what the source says. People do not "return" to a place for a spy mission, especially after having spent virtually all their life in another. I would not have agreed to the redundancy in the lead statement, both in Asmahan and Farid. What does it mean to call someone, let's say SD, Supreme Deliciousness is Syrian and belonging to the Syrian Deliciousness family? This is redundancy on an unprecedented level! I would not have agreed to starting work on Farid until we were done here, cause that article too still needs a lot of work and the lead there needs to reflect what will be in the article. Changes there should reflect agreement on that Talk page, not here. I agreed to labelling Asmahan as Syrian-Egyptian because of suggested evidence that she might have held that citizenship for some time as an adult. What evidence do we have that Farid regained Syrian citizenship at any time in adulthood? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think we agreed at the beginning that homeland was not to be used. This has been removed from the article. I preferred your lead in contrast to SDs not because it's a good lead. It's a start for a lead. Any statement that isn't reffed with a Reliable source will be removed. I will start doing this in the next hour. So please reff anything that you want to stay. Changing go to return on the spy mission makes sens because it's in relation to her being there before and having good influence on her People. I suggest not working on Farid at all till we get there later. Still most of changes that were made are improvement to the article. I started on SDs statement because it was the first listed. He had comments that show WP guidelines violation and I acted therefore on them. I'll review your statements and see what can be done.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:09, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, You removed more then just "homeland" you also removed "returned", I ask you to change it to "So she returned with him to Syria"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:13, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

We have to go with what the sources show, not what AC wants it to be, what does the sources say? Sherifa Zuhur says in AS page 19 "Syrian homeland" Asmahan also makes statements about her lineage, her Syrian father and Syrian Sultan Pasha. Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut" He first agreed to your lead instead of mine, but this doesn't mean he agreed to exactly everything in it. Things changes. Dont be silly, the sources are saying that she did live in Syria before several times, and you know this, just because the exact line about her mission to Syria did not use the exact word "return" doesn't meant it wasn't what she did. Because both Faird and Asmahan were half lebanese, the Atrash family is a Syrian family. Farid was born in Syria to a Syrian father = he is Syrian.

A lot of the things we have talked about here are the exactly same things for Farid al-Atrash, we do not have to go through everything one more time over there. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


Diaa, one hour is not enough. Please give me until this time tomorrow to reference the statements that I wish to keep. Thanks for removing "homeland". I think you should also remove the "home" reference, because (a) I think SD is misunderstanding Zuhur's statement, and (b) there are a lot of other statements referring to Egypt as her home. Do we want to go there? I will be gone for half a day or so, so please do not expect a reply from me immediately. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The statement shows that Asmahan saw Syria as her home as opposed to Turkey or Lebanon. I don't see how that clashes with the idea that she was Egyptian or Syrian. I'll give you a day for the reffs. I hope SD also collaborates on that matter.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:53, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, but I read the statement as Asmahan not having lived in Syria in childhood, but went there for visits only. Actually other sources (arguably not reliable) show that she lived that time in Turkey and Lebanon only. In any case, I will respond to that later. Thanks for the time extension till tomorrow. Please restore Farid to last week's version until we start working there. We have not agreed anything on Farid yet and I do not want to start any edit wars there. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Then I advise you to visit an optician for the statement from AS says, direct quoted: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut" nothing here says that she didn't live in Syria in her childhood, actually the section says that she did live in the "the mountains of the Druze" in her childhood. The only thing it says is that she didnt spend much time there.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Consensus not by votes

Just a reminder that consensus isn't reached by votes. It depends on good and sensible arguments. Cause in the case of votes it would be easy using proxies to just reach own consensus :) .--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Very well said Diaa. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:26, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
yeah, it seems that Annyong and SD have reached consensus on their own during my absence. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Who killed asmahan book

I'll try to buy the book "Who Killed Asmahan" (http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/386770414&referer=brief_results) and improve the article for factual accuracy. The book was release in 2009 and reveals many secrets of the past.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

That would be good. Are you located in Egypt to be able to buy it? I know it's a personal quetsion and of course you are free to disregard it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:02, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Yep, live in Egypt.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa are you Egyptian?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:33, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, am Egyptian....--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 14:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok I bought the book, it has a CD with it with all of her songs, probably gonna upload those...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Um, be sure you check the copyright on that. Read WP:NFC#Audio clips. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
I think her songs are PD as they are collective works published more than 50 years ago (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Template:PD-Egypt-1996). Collective because it was by an writer and a singer published by a legal entity (Publisher).--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Just as a side comment, I have been listening to Asmahan for the last month or so throught this editing process; have always been a big fan of hers and Farid's. But over the last couple of days, I switched to Umm Kulthum for a change. While I prefer the "sweetness" in Asmahan's voice, as a matter of personal taste, Umm Kulthum's performance is clearly superior. She hits all those difficult notes so easily that it appears so effortless and leaves her in full command, as compared to Asmahan's and Farid's "straining" to do so. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Emily

Her name was Emily in her French passport.. :) --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

problems with sources

This section: "This marriage, too, was short-lived, perhaps because Asmahan wanted financial freedom. On her way back to Egypt by land, Asmahan met Egyptian film director Ahmed Salem in Jerusalem and they were married and together they returned to Egypt. By remarrying Hassan, Asmahan had regained Syrian citizenship, and it was alleged that on these grounds, the Egyptian palace wished to strip her of her Egyptian citizenship"

Has a blog as a source.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:03, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


side note, this source: http://www.alquds.co.uk/index.asp?fname=2008\05\05-23\21m25.htm&storytitle= the nr 3 source currently in this article says that Asmahan was born in 1912 on a boat heading from Greece to Turkey.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:12, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Urgh, good catch. Livejournal is never a reliable source. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 22:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


trustworthy source? This sentence: "It was also alleged that Asmahan entered into the marriage with Salim to maintain her Egyptian citizenship." has the link above as a source ,the same one saying Asmahan was born in 1912.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Conflicts

It seems that on every single thing that is added there has to be a conflict. The article is very high need of expansion and the two of you just fight about the smallest word that is there. I have to admit Al Quds is deemed a reliable source. It is a public newspaper written by journalists and is therefore reliable. I've been away for a while working on some other things. I guess again please post your problems below and don't write 2,000kB explaining why you're right and the other is wrong. Just write something you want somewhere changed or added and I'll comment. Please don't fight again and I don't get why you posted on the Administrator's noticeboard which does one of two things: Block a person or Edit protect the page which are both not of your interest. Please withdraw the complaint. HelloAnnyong your input is very welcome and I'm happy that you're still with us..--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 13:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Glad to be here. I'm pretty sure your pleading here is going to fall on deaf ears. This is just one of many articles where SD and AC have been battling; Soad Hosny, Omar Sharif and Farid al-Atrash are also points of contention for them. Of course I would love nothing more than to see the fight end here, but after watching this for many weeks, I just don't know... — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Not just those, Annyong, but also Baba Ghannouj, Debke, Qatayef, Kunafah, etc. He thinks he has a Syrian monopoly on all of these things. He clearly hates anything Egyptian and would rather see Omar Sharif labelled as Greek rather than Egyptian, for example. Just ANYTHING BUT Egyptian. He feels that Egypt is the enemy of Syria, just like Israel is. It was an uphill battle to convince him that Qatayef is just as Egyptian as it is Levantine, for example, or that the people of al-Arish view the dabka as their folk dance. He feels that everyone is out there to steal whatever LITTLE culture his country has had to offer; this is what he makes it look like. He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
"He's so jealous and envious of Egypt, and has been the most childish and selfish individual I've ever had to deal with." - and this is why we have conflict. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 15:38, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
childish and envious he says, this is coming from someone that deleted that Sulaf Fawakherji is a Syrian actor, yet added "Egyptian" infront of every single Egyptian person she ever met in her life in rest of the article. This is coming from someone that deleted that Omar Shariff parents were Lebanese and that Soad Hosny has a Syrian family background. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Sulaf has never met Asmahan. You are lying again, I have not deleted Omar Sharif's Lebanese-Egyptian parenthood (notice you started out calling him Syrian, and when that didn't work, Greek, then Lebanese; anything but Egyptian is your goal) or Soad Hosny's Syrian family background on her father's side. Check the articles to see your own lies. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, what SD says above is untrue, as usual. My edits were all legitimate and have improved the article. SD had edited the article during my absence and you have given the greenlight to improve the article before I started my edits. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed (as you had done with SD's requests in my absence: done, done, removed, removed,...). Please review and delete them as necessary. Other than those listed above, all edits that I have made to the article had been over-killed with discussion on the Talk page. SD's addition of "Syrian" to describe Sulaf is not relevant to the article and opens the door to listing the nationalities of all the actors in the series. This is not the place for that. None of those actors had any influence on Asmahan or her music. Maybe SD should list the sourced information, that is of any relevance to Asmahan and her music, and that he alleges that I removed? I do not see a reason to withdraw the complaint for as long as he still wants to roll back the article to July 25th after all the work I have done. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
All AC edits on wikipedia can bee seen here, all of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Good for you, SD. You're obviously lying again because I have made a couple more edits than this one, and when you showed a source that this was a Turkish recipe, I left it alone without any fight. I have lived in Syria and Lebanon, and pastirma there is so thick and hard to chew that you wouldn't even want to put it on your car tires. Even the sellers would tell me that it was preferrable to cook it first to make it edible. It cannot possibly be made the same way as in Turkey and Egypt, where it is eaten as cold cuts. No wonder, people from the Levant stock up on pastirma during their visits to Egypt and carry it back with them. Plus, there's a separate paragraph for Lebanese pastirma in that section, so what else do you need? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
I can also add that "all of SD's edits" can be summed up by examples of what other editors say to him:
"I hope you are banned from Wikipedia soon for your comments on this and many other pages. You are a disgrace to Wikipedia (if not the human race)."--Gilabrand (talk) 09:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC). Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Za%27atar#Israeli_culture_theft
and
"Please understand that this is an encyclopedia. Statements must be supported by verifiable sources, opinion is not enough. Edits that are aggressive, highly political attacks on particular ethnic and national groups are not welcome here. And please try to read up on a topic before you edit. Your assertion that is is somehow illegitimate for a nation to adopt a foodstuff Za'atar is absurd. And your assertion that the Druze are not Arabs because they are not genetically Arab is not merely ridiculous, it is borderiline racism. Historicist (talk) 03:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC) Historicist (talk) 11:56, 16 June 2009 (UTC)". Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Supreme_Deliciousness#Settle_down
--Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Just so all are aware, I've warned Arab Cowboy about personal attacks, following their comments above. Such person attacks are against Wikipedia policy. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, you are continuously proving yourself to be SD's puppet, so your warnings are worthless. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Okay, well, that's your opinion. Personal attacks are personal attacks, and they're not allowed. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
And, you can go to the original authors of those statements above for questions about personal attacks, not me. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Don't care about background

I completely and utterly don't care about the Backgrounds of any of you two. If we did that then many of the admins would be banned for starting with unreffed edits then improving over time. Again you started fighting.... Could u please stop fighting?--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:47, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Alright, Diaa, fair enough. I have posted for you, above, in the "Arab Cowboy's Suggestions" section the statements that had NOT been agreed and that I would like removed. Please review and delete them as necessary. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Will review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Frustration

Well, the matter is getting harder and I'm a bit frustrated. I lost track of the issues you currently have and would like some clear cut statements of what each party wants. I don't need proofs or discussions. State one sentence in the article that you want changed then place your suggested change. I'll review it and comment or add it. Please don't fight and don't comment on each other's suggestions. I hope to get this done before the weekend.

Arab Cowboy's suggestions

Diaa, I restored the lead that had been agreed before my absence. I do not agree to the changes that have been made since. The lead should contain concise summary statements of each of the sections in the articl"e.

Infobox": Asmahan (Arabic: أسمهان Asmahān; birth name: Amal al-Atrash; born: October 25, 1918 at Mediterranean Sea; died: July 14, 1944 in Nile River, Egypt)[1] was an Egyptian[2] singer and actor

"al-Atrash Clan" and "Immigration to Egypt": belonging to a princely Druze family of Syrian-Lebanese origin. Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood,

"Musical Debut" and "Egypt's Influence": she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad. She also sang the compositions of Mohammed Abdel Wahab and her brother Farid al-Atrash, a then rising star musician in his own right.

"Voice Characteristics" (will be added later when fixed): Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum.[3] Although the original reference is from a book of at least 4 volumes (Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320), although shown online in what seems to be a blog, I added NT's reference from Zuhur's Asmahan's Secrets.

"Personal Life", "Role in WWII", and "Death" Her mysterious, untimely death by drowning at the age of twenty-six drew speculations about tribulations in her personal life and an espionage role in World War II.

This is the way things should go... Again, this article is about Asmahan and her music, not the al-Atrash clan. There are other articles in Wikipedia about the clan. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Three people - myself, SD and Diaa - have agreed that the Umm Kulthum thing should not be there. (Diaa removed it here.) There are a number of reasons, one of which is that blogspot is not a reliable source. But you'll see that all you really did was undid Diaa's edits, and at this point, all you're doing is going against the consensus. Also, you changed her birthdate in this edit - why did you do that? I didn't think that was up for debate. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 05:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
In fact, Diaa had agreed that the Asmahan's Secrets, p. 85 ref that had been provided by NT was a reliable source. What Diaa last said about this matter was "Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)". Two other editors, NT and myself, did not agree with the removal of the Umm Kulthum statement. So what consensus are you talking about that you and SD have reached in my absence for two days? The birthdate in the infobox was conflicting with the date in the lead. The date in the lead was backed by the al-Mada newspaper reference and that in the Infobox was backed by IMDB, not considered a reliable source, so I made them to match the reliably sourced date. Why don't you ever do a good job checking the sources before editing? (Ok, this time, the source is in Arabic so I won't hold it against you.) --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:58, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
My objection isn't just about sourcing; it's that having a statement like that in the lead is really awkward. The lead should be about a person's life, not about comparing them to someone else. And you wouldn't see that sort of thing in the lead of a good article. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:22, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Annyong, Umm Kulthum was the "Gold Standard" of Arab music against whom all other singers have been compared. On a scale of 1 to 10, Umm Kulthum was a 10. Only Asmahan could be rated at 8-9. Fairuz is probably 7-8. I cannot think of others who even passed a 5. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Why is your rating of Arab singers relevant to this article? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 14:28, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
This is the Talk page, not the article. I am providing you with a rating so you would understand where things fall in Arab music. Of course, this is my own opinion and is not article material. The relevance is your objection to the Umm Kulthum comparison. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 14:36, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

The following statements currently in the article should be deleted. They are either of NO VALUE or IRRELEVANT to an article about Asmahan. The al-Atrash clan have their own article in Wikipedia and most of these statements would fit better in that article.

1. "Her father was married twice and had two children before marrying 'Alia al-Mundhir." IRRELEVANT

Is related Asmahan's half brothers and sisters, shows her close relatives, stays.

2. "She also had an older brother, Fuad, and a sister and brother, Widad and Anwar who both had died at a very young age." NO VALUE

Is related to the environment Asmahan grew up in, stays.

3. "Fahd suggested naming her "Bahriyya" (meaning "of the sea" in Arabic), but her mother objected and decided to name her "Amal", meaning "hope"." NO VALUE

Very interesting and has a proper reference, stays.

4. "Fahd was later appointed as a judge in Suwayda." IRRELEVANT

Relevant to why Alia and her family could be targeted, stays.

5. "The al-Atrash clan was a Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s." IRRELEVANT

Bad start sentence, their role is relevant for their fleeing, has to change.

6. "Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed of the fighting in Suwayda. Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda." NO VALUE

7. "`Alia's husband threatened to divorce her if she did not return to Syria.[citation needed] 'Alia refused and was therefore divorced." NO VALUE

Well this is very important. I don't see how you could say that. It's referenced in the Asmahan's Secrets book, SD should reff that... In any case this would leave a blank point as to what exactly was the relationship of Alia/ Asmahan and her husband/father. stays
  • I don't exactly understand what you want changed in the lead now. Please summarize it and get to the point of what you want changed.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

--Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Where did I say that I want the lead changed? I want it to stay as is. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:44, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness suggestions

Diaa, I thank you for your work and patience. You have helped a lot and I think we are done soon.

But some things have to be addressed.


  • The first line in the article I want it to say she is Syrian-Lebanese. Her mother was lebanese, and there is no solid proof she got Egyptian citizenship and even if she did this happened a long time after she emigrated there, as proven above. And as have been showed many times the quote from Asmahans Secrets page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refferd to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status"

Suggestion "was a Syrian-Lebanese singer and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan"

Sorry Supreme Deliciousness but we discussed this and there is no doubt that she got the Egyptian citizenship. You yourself said "The naturalized "later on" is important because it says in Asmahans Secrets p 98 that "Asmahan had not become an Egyptian citizen early on" and then the author talks about soem problems." so she did get naturalized... I will not debate this anymore. It has to be mentioned in the lead. Syrian-Lebanese is doubtful as there is no proof that she got the Lebanese citizenship. There is proof that she regained the Syrian citizenship, so SD she is Syrian-Egyptian or "Syrian Singer who had her entire career in Egypt and was naturalized there".--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


  • I would also like this expanded to the Farid al-Atrash article, a man born in Syria, to Syrian-Lebanese parents.

So it says: "Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Lebanese composer, singer, virtuoso oud player, and actor belonging to the al-Atrash clan.

Same here, he got the Egyptian citizenship. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, how about both of them Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian? If not then I ask you to change the lead to the Farid al atrash article to: ""Farid al-Atrash (Arabic: فريد الأطرش; born: October 19, 1915 in Suwayda, Syria; died: December 26, 1974 in Beirut, Lebanon) was a Syrian-Egyptian"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:57, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 17:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers, Dawood Hussnei, Mohammed al-Qasabji and Zakariyya Ahmad."

This I want deleted, the source for this was a blog, There is no evidence she was the apprentice for these, and I also question the importance of adding the nationality of some of the people she might have worked with in in the lead of the article, this is the usual edits by AC to put the word "Egyptian" as much as he can everywhere as we also can see in other articles: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Past%C4%B1rma&diff=302954933&oldid=301429858

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "Accoding to Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan’s immigration to Egypt as a child of five years old was undisputedly the most important turning point in her life, for without it, she would have had no musical career."

This I want deleted, Sherifa has not said this, this is guessing by AC himself and has no place in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum. "

Must be deleted, has nothing to do in an encyclopedia.

removed--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "Asmahan only remembered this period as happy and carefree childhood.[9] She spent most early years in the family's residences in Lebanon and Turkey and only been to the Jabal for visits.""

This is not following what the source is saying which is: Asmahans Secrets on page 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al_taba`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze, She remembered a happy and carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather then her family's residences in Turkey and Beirut"

My suggestion to the article: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in Suweida, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was what she saw as her "home" rather then Lebanon or Turkey"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to go to Syria"

In the WW2 section, a very important trigger word was deleted by AC, I want this word returned to the article so it says: "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to return to Syria"

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "popular prime minister Saad Zaghloul"

Popular? this should be deleted. What relevance is it if he is popular or not? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

done--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


  • "and in Egypt, she remained for the rest of her short life." reffed from page 99, but in the book after page 99 it continues to speak about her return to Syria during WW2.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
This section should be rewritten and merged into the rest of sections anyway. I'll see later what I can do. till then add {{clarify}} next to the reff. And please continue reffing the article.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 18:17, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong's suggestions

Don't know why I didn't get a section here, but here's my take.

  • "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." - This line needs to go. Aside from being wholly unsourced and not covered by the text in the article, it's just not particularly relevant. And for someone who has no idea who Umm Kulthum is, it means nothing.
  • There should be a line or two about how she contributed to Arab music. The lead should mention why she was notable, and being the apprentice of some guys and singing in competitions doesn't really make me think that she's all that important. But she clearly is important (at least, enough to keep two editors battling about her for months) so there should be something that points out why she was so notable.

Just my take on this. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Sorry HelloAnnyong for not putting a section for you. Not a big issue... I agree to both your comments. I think SD and AC can take care of the second point. My brain is currently fried because of this long and exhausting discussion.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
That's alright. You've done an exceptional job here. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 16:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

HelloAnnyong, anyone who knows anything about Arabic music, should know who Umm Kulthum is!!! And the fact that she is hyperlinked should be enough for others. Contrary to what you think, I believe it is important as Umm Kulthum was and is the frame of reference. You should understand that "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." actually helps make people get the idea of how IMPORTANT Asmahan was. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 20:35, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

You know, Wiki articles aren't just for a small group of people. They're read by people around the world who have varying levels of knowledge on a subject, and the articles need to be accessible to all. To that end, it's restrictive to write an article that makes references that only a small group of people will understand. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 20:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Where is the source for "Hers was the only voice in Arab music to ever pose a serious competition to that of Umm Kulthum." ? It was a blog. This kind of statement has no place in an encyclopedia.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:51, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
You are right, that is what hyperlinks are for! --Nefer Tweety (talk) 21:01, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

"This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" write Al-Sharif. Al-Sharif describes the "rivalry" of the two artists, Umm Kulthum and Asmahan, at a purely vocal level- in the potential, the range, musicality, and the interpretive skills Asmahan possessed surpassed those of other voices with the sole exception of Umm Kulthum." Page 85 Asmahan's Secrets http://books.google.com/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA85&dq=asmahan+%22umm+kulthum%22 . In case you still do not get what I meant above, this is a huge compliment to Asmahan and a measure of her talent. --Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:28, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Well then, add the reff and if possible add the rest of missing reffs.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:39, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
note, page 85 is not viewable in the link. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:58, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
That's nice. It's still adding way too much undue weight to what is a relatively minor point. If you want to actually show how she came to take on Umm Kulthum, put it in the actual text of the article and se sources. Don't just randomly insert these grand, sweeping points that don't actually say anything of substance. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 23:11, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

after some google quote searching I can confirm that this sentence is indeed on page 85: "This song made such an impact that Asmahan's artistry "began to shake the throne of Umm Kulthum" I can not see the whole page but something is written on the page about a rivalry. Still, should it even be in the article or lead? considering the points HA mentions above.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I am sorry, I do not know enough about the "citation template" and I find it a bit confusing to add references to the main article. I'll leave editing the article to anyone else. It's enough for me to follow what's going on here, on the Talk page, and give my opinion only if I feel I have something valuable to add. __Nefer Tweety (talk) 14:06, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Nefer Tweety's suggestions

On topic posts only

Diaa, thank you for not leaving and giving up, I thought we had lost you. Now I will write my problems with the page, but first I must know from what page are we gonna start working from. Everything that I have wanted to change, delete or ad, I had to go through the talkpage as the mediation process was, on the 26th, AC did massive changes to the article and deleted several sourced sections without going through the talkpage, is this fair? Now are you gonna put me in a situation where I have to fight this uphill battle one more time? Is this fair to me? I am asking you to take the article back to any date of the 25th so we can start from there, and if Arab Cowboy wants to do any of these changes he forced on the article, he would have to go through the talkpage, like I had to do. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Will Review...--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Currently there are many reverts and changes to the point that I lost the positive/negative or controversial changes AC did. If you could show me some specific changes I can revert them till further discussion. I find what AC did with changing everything without even respecting my input shows much disrespect to my instructions, which was part of my decision to abstain from any mediation for a while. AC, I reviewed what SD said and added with my own edits what I saw as facts. I couldn't see how you would have objected to any of them. I wasn't biased at all and opposed some suggestions and agreed to others. I told you to add reffs before I remove all unreffed stuff to clear things. You added more than reffs. Some are good edits, others are controversial. In any case I hope such changes and editwars wouldn't occur in the future and hope AC and SD get along some day, since both are interested in the same articles.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 20:49, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, this is really curious! What is that "everything" that I changed, please be specific, and what are your inputs that I did not respect? You had given instructions to SD on Farid's Talk page to "improve the articles". SD had been editing the article while I abstained. Why is one editor allowed to edit while the other only permitted to add refs? If that was what you meant then it was not acceptable. Was it you who had added "Syrian actor" in reference to Sulaf? Was it you who had added "She returned to Suwayda, her Syrian homeland" with three refs (that did not really reflect that statement - in fact, the whole book did not contain "homeland" at all)? I really do not see what you're talking about! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
SD wasn't allowed to change anything on Asmahan except add {{Clarify}} to one sentence. The Farid Al Atrash article needs a lot of expansions which any of you could do without wars. And "Improve the articles" means to improve the article, which I specified on this page as "Supreme Deliciousness please replace the citation needed templates" . "everything" means all types of changes, reffs, expansions, changes of sentences....--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:11, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
These were there in the 24 hours edits allowed.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:10, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
No, Diaa, you may have lost the sequence of events. Those two specific additions by SD were made AFTER the 24-hour free edit periods: here, here, here, and here, at least. They were made after my own 24-hour period (11 July) had elapsed, which came second. Or, did SD get a second 24-hour free editing period while I did not know? I refrained from editing all the way through last week, then when I found these two and other edits made by SD, while you were telling him to "improve the article", I took it to mean that free editing was allowed. "Improve the article" was not by any means restricted to "replace the citation needed templates". It was a general instruction to improve the article, and I did a whole day's worth of work "improving the article". I removed those two additions only because they had been posted post the 24-hour periods, and I listed the rest that I wanted removed on this page. What was I supposed to take "improve the article" as, while SD was freely editing the article? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
This is not true at all what AC is saying, The "returned to her family's hometown" were there from the beginning when I was allowed to edit the article, you AC deleted the segment during your free edit, and I brought the sentence back right after your free 24hours edit. The other sentence, Diaaa said we should ad refs to the article, I added a ref and added two words "Syrian actress" the women who played Asmahan according to the link was Syrian. How is this: "while SD was freely editing the article" ?? Adding two single words compared to changing the whole article like Arab Cowboy did? Is this a joke? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
It had already been agreed on this Talk page that "hometown" was not to be used. Or am I mistaken about this, Diaa? Obviously SD had done a lot more than "add [clarification needed] to one sentence". Please see 4 diffs in my paragraph above. Why wasn't he accused of "changing the whole article"? Please view those changes made by SD next to your "improve the article" instruction and show me how it could not have been interpreted to freely edit the article? I am still waiting for you to take your accusation back, Diaa, or show me where I was wrong. --Arab Cowboy (talk)


1. This was asked by admin al Ameer son and Dia to create a Identity section: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=301555899&oldid=301552725

2. This was added by me during my free 24hours and you deleted them, and I brought them back: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=301586920&oldid=301583401

3. This was two single words and a reff that was asked by Dia to ad reffs to article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=304187036&oldid=304124449

4. This was one single word: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=301552678&oldid=301552169

So please, cut the crap about me "editing freely" ok? seriously sick and tired of this guy.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:03, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Your rudeness and vulgarity only speak of you and your people. At least 4 edits, not none at all. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:12, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
What do you mean by Your people ????--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:17, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Diaa, I ask for your permission to freely edit the article, then you can take a look at it, I will take back a lot of thing to how they were, and bring back segments deleted by Arab Cowboy, I will not delete anything of what AC added although they were added without the mediation process, but if there is anything I object to I will make a list at the talkpage, ok?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You may expand but not change sections. You can add stuff that was deleted between the 26th and today. Please do this incrementaly (Section by Section) so I could revert easily if needed. I'll stay awake for the next hour to finish this controversy.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:47, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
If any of you missed it, here it is again, claims by AC that I "freely edited the article" are complete false: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=304963691&oldid=304962584 and no, "homeland" was not to be used, her "family's hometown" is a different thing.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
SD had made at least 4 edits that I have so far counted, when he was supposed to make none. "hometown" is the same, if it is going to be used, i will bring a dozen references to Asmahan choosing Egypt as her adopted country. I have so refrained from doing so to avoid references to homeland or hometown or anything similar. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
You lie, a usual. There were 4 other editors besides me changing the article between those dates. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Tags

I've readded the OR, refimprove and fansite tags. I'm mostly referring to the Voice Characteristics section, which I still believe is heavily skewed. The Death section is also wholly unsourced. Do not remove these tags until these issues are taken care of. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 20:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Annyong, what is "readded"? and why did you truncate the VC title? In which direction is it heavily skewed? It is based entirely on Zuhur's Images of Enchantment? Please be more specific so your concerns may be addressed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I re-added the tags back to the top of the page. I truncated the Voice characteristics title because "Song Delivery" has no real meaning; it's just there to be fancruft and extol Asmahan a little bit more. And the fact that it's based solely on Zuhur's book troubles me. One, it should use multiple sources; two, it shouldn't just be a paraphrasing of what's in the book; and three, it's skewed in the direction of making her out to be the greatest singer ever. "She gained stature through sensitive and successful emotional interpretation as well as musical delivery of various phrases – which often implied a deep understanding of emotional states." is utter fluff and has no value to an encyclopedic article. I'd remove the section, but I won't unless other people (and not just SD) agree with me. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 20:45, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


Red links (needed articles)

Please create either stubs or DYKs for the following articles:--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 21:56, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

To Diaa

Diaa, you have an interesting way of not seeing or ignoring what I write to you. Again, what do I need to do get your attention? Previously, I've had to post all my paragraphs on your Talk page to get a reply and still I got none. How do you expect your "instructions" to be heeded then? Even if you prefer the burial place to go in the Death section, why is SD making the change and not you? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:18, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It had already been agreed on this Talk page that "hometown" was not to be used. Or am I mistaken about this, Diaa? Obviously SD had done a lot more than "add [clarification needed] to one sentence". Please see 4 diffs in my paragraph above. Why wasn't he accused of "changing the whole article"? Please view those changes made by SD next to your "improve the article" instruction and show me how it could not have been interpreted to freely edit the article? I am still waiting for you to take your accusation back, Diaa, or show me where I was wrong. --Arab Cowboy (talk)
It seems that the two of you disregarded my instructions. You were wrong on doing the same wrong thing.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
I had not seen you lay any blame on him; you just kept piling on me "changed the whole article"! Your disregard of the many posts that I had made to you here and on your Talk page brought about this misunderstanding of your "instructions". Your instruction above was for him to add and not change sections, so when I bring to your attention that he's changing sections and you never respond, then I am forced to also change sections myself. I have already brought to your attention repeatedly the redundant statement that he added to the lead. I would like to see it removed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
AC I mostly don't do discussions on my talk page. I address talk pages I'm watching... I delayed my answer to your suggestions a bit which wasn't intentional, believe it or not. If the two of you could disregard the past and concentrate on the present we can get this finished. Currently everything is screwed up and I don't know what everyone wants. Do the same trick with suggestions again and I'll reply to you first this time. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 22:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Diaa, you replied neither here nor on your Talk page, but only told SD to "improve the article". I therefore reject any criticism from you or anyone about me "changing the whole article". I think an apology is owed here. Now, I have put a lot of work into the article over the last few days, and if they got all messed up with SD's edits then we'd have a very big problem. Please address my comments to you that I had left on your Talk page last week; you're welcome to transport them back here if you wish. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
WP:Stick--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 23:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Regretfully, Diaa, I will not be able to take any more of your "instructions" until the above is cleared and the accusations are retracted. This is what you all have been calling "changed the whole article"? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 23:59, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

No, that is not it, unlike you, I did not remove what others have added. I kept It. This is changing the whole article: Changes by Arab cowboy between 22:31, 25 July 2009 to 20:03, 29 July 2009 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=304942427&oldid=304193933 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 00:10, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I may very well take my leave of this article as well. I'm starting to believe that there really isn't much mediation that can be done anymore. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 01:01, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


Diaa, you had stated that you would approve, modify, or delete SD's additions within the hour, which you did not do. The statement that I modified brought the meaning as close as possible to that intended by Zuhur without actually copying the whole sentence; SD's interpretation of it changed the meaning and represented his POV. Also, SD's relocation of his "lineage" statement to the Egypt's Influence section is unacceptable; it undermines the whole section. I added the "citation needed" template at locations where the text contradicts with the sources, such as Asmahan's birthdate and the town that was shelled, etc. The first Legacy statement has never been sourced and should have been up for deletion a long time ago. I cannot accept your permission to SD to edit the article while I only write on the Talk page, all along, comments that you ignore. I am also not interested in chasing you around with my comments and repeating them over and over again. This cannot continue. I left you a message on MY Talk page. If you will be kind enough to respond there, it will be appreciated. Otherwise, I will not accept one-sided edits to the article. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Protection is over

Asmahan is no longer locked as you can see. I hope your concerns have been addressed or at least partly so. You guys could go ahead and edit the article. It's not necessary to come to the talk page before adding something, but if you think it might be just a tad controversial then please come here first. Same thing about removing anything from the article. I really hope you guys could work together to further improve this and other articles. I have to go back and focus on another article I was editing so I won't be concentrating my efforts here. If you need anything though feel free to contact me. Salam, --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:03, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Expansion of "Egypt influence" section

After finding a link so I can view text from page 13 in Asmahans Secrets I saw a lot of biased and selective texts in the Egypt influence section only telling one side of the story, and leaving the other one out. So I added, that she was required to sing praising songs for the king and songs for the republic and that Asmahan was proud of her background and put her career to the side when she believed her people needed her, that was right before the "other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt" part and was not in the article.

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html

Direct quote from Asmahans Secretes: "Asmahan experienced a number of repercussions from her dual identity. Her family fled her homeland, Syria, and she grew so accustomed to Cairo that she longed for it after her marriage and return to Syria. She understood that options were open to her in Egypt, as a familiar stranger, that Druze identity in Syria would prohibit. Yet she was proud of her origins and patriotic enough to sacrifice her ambitions and her musical ranking in a time of crisis when she believed "her people" needed her. The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure, since she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes. Arabic poetry and song have long possessed this specific genre, panegyrics—or art in the service of empire." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Removing the tags

They no longer need to deface the article. Everything, except for one sentence I think, is cited and I don't believe there is any more OR or intricate detail. Thus, I will remove them. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for all your effort, Ameer. Although I do not like the edits by SD in the last couple of days, I will not knit-pick them. We need to end this matter. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 04:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
That's very admirable of you. I agree this issue has gone too far and we must move on. Happy editing everyone! --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Discography

I tagged the Discography section for being very long, and AC removed the tag without any explanation. I've now turned it into a columned section, but it's still very long and has no references. But I'm curious about this section anyway. Am I really to believe that in her 25 years of life, she put out 40+ albums? Is this really a list of full albums, or just songs that she sang? — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 12:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

songs. at that time, each song was on an LP disc. i removed your tag because, you, as usual, judge and criticize and do nothing. putting in the columns later was one way for you to light a candle, rather than curse the darkness. do you get it? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going to feed the trolls. — HelloAnnyong (say whaaat?!) 18:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Objection

Ameer: the changes above are not acceptable to me. Diaa had approved an equal number of "return"s for both Egypt and Syria and he has objected to the use of the words "homeland" and "hometown". SD is chipping away at past agreements and compromises by not telling you of them and his continuous nagging. I am trying to be flexible, but the continuous edits are changing the meaning completely. His "better idea" above removed Egypt completely from the meaning and it is not known anymore where Hassan proposed to Asmahan. "relocation to Syria" can be changed to "residence in Syria", which is more neutral. "came to Cairo" cannot be changed to "came from Syria". The sentence about Asmahan being required to sing the praises of the republic is not only ridiculous, but also grammatically and historically inaccurate, regardless of what Zuhur says. Egypt was not a republic until after Asmahan's death altogether. I can go on and on, but this endless nagging and chipping away at every sentence must stop once and for all. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Its not factual to say "residence in Syria" because with the whole sentence it implies that she only lived there twice, which is false. "homeland" is sourced and was okeyd by mediator. Diaa said no "homeland" and therefore "adopted country" was not added also. you added "adopted country" without going to talkpage, therefore I got "homeland" with ok from mediator. If "homeland" is removed then "adopted country" is also gonna be removed. Amsmhan was required to sing about certain things, this is straight from Asmahns secretes page 13: "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure, since she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes." http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html Arab Cowboy changed this sentence to "The dependence on Egyptian elites led Asmahan and other singers to sing songs of praise for the king and his line." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Diaa never objected to the use of "adopted country"; he objected to "homeland". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 10:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Diaa never allowed "adopted country" Ameer didn't object to "homeland".--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Diaa never allowed a billion other words that you've added since he left, yet he specifically objected to "homeland". you did not tell Ameer that when you kept nagging again about the same thing. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Egypt was certainly not a republic then, I think Zuhur means nationalist themes when she talks of republican themes. I made the edit, but if one of you want to better clarify go ahead then (just don't re-add republic). If the source says "required" then we should use required. Who are we to challenge it? As for "homeland", I preferred we didn't use it, just saying Syria is enough, but I allowed it as a compromise. To be honest, I don't think we should compare "homeland" to "adopted country" since the two are not completely parallel, but since the individual issues with their usage seems unlikely to cease, I opt we drop both of them. Saying Syria and Egypt alone is fine. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:45, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
My problem was not with the republic, my problem was that AC removed "required" so the meaning of it was changed. AC threatened to ad "adopted country" as a counter if we added "homeland", so Homeland was not added, then AC added the "adopted country" so therefor homeland will also be in the article, this is fair. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer: "led to" was added by SD, and "led to being required... praising songs" is grammatically wrong. I agree, "homeland" is not completely parallel to "adopted country"; I can also argue that Egypt was Asmahan's "homeland", with reliable sources. For that reason, Diaa objected to the use of the term altogether, and he made no comment on "adopted country". Also, homeland was never used in the book to refer to her moving to Syria after her marriage to Hassan; SD takes it out of context to fabricate a different meaning. Ameer, please also address the other changes made. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree about homeland for that reason (Egypt could also be considered her homeland). However, I'm not too fond of using "adopted country" either. Let's be completely honest, both aren't necessary to have on Wikipedia. I reiterate: Egypt and Syria alone are fine. You're right about the grammar problem; we should remove "led to" and just have "required her to". --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Answer to AC: if "led to" is not in the book is of no importance, this can be changed. There are copyright issues and we can not copy exact texts from books, the important thing is that the meaning of texts are not lost, like when you removed "required". Exactly you yourself can argue that "egypt was her homeland".. but the truth can not. This would be something you made up. Diaa did not allow "adopted country" either, if that stays, then Syrian homeland(which is in the book) also stays. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:05, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Let's not bring up "homeland" and "adopted country" again. I already explained what to do with both of those terms; throw 'em out. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, Ameer. It's ok to remove "adopted country" too. Now, please remove also "moving back" and restore "came to Cairo", etc., as I had explained abover. Or, I can do it myself. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:12, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
"Moving back" makes sense and so does "came to Cairo" (I prefer the latter over "came back from Syria" since obviously she was in Syria. Go ahead and restore it, but keep "moving back". --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
OK, Ameer, I will stop here, though I disagree with "moving back" and a few others, and you can consider it a compromise. Thanks again for everything. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:20, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, this source, page 82, also by Zuhur, used the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which along with SD's definition of the word "relocated", emphasizes my understanding, from Zuhur's other book and all the sources that I have read, that Asmahan did not live in Syria in childhood. She lived in Lebanon and Turkey. "Moving back" has a different meaning which may be false altogether, according to these sources and SD's definition of the word. With all due respect, I will therefore restore the use of that word in recounting her marriage. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 03:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Lies do not come true if you repeat them several times: The full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape. "I felt untouched by anything truly bad," she reportedly told al-tabi`i. A child would have been unafraid of the political events concerning their elders. Until the Druze rebellion broke out, Asmahan seemed unaware of the desperate times in the world she escaped." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:00, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Your rude comment above is irrelevant to this source, page 82. The word used in the source is "relocated": "She relocated to the Jabal". I disagree with your understanding of what you typed above. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, I am still awaiting your comment on this matter. "relocated" is the word used in the "reliable" source. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry guys, I haven't been as active as usual in these past couple days. Before we get into the issue here, I have to warn you guys (again) not to make any personal comments; don't call a fellow user's words "lies" or a user himself a "liar". If these kind of attacks persist, someone will certainly take notice of it eventually and report that person to AN/I. Now, SD has been giving me notices on my talk page about possible plagiarism violations; this is a serious problem. Any sentence that is an exact copy or if there's an exact copy of a set of words (phrase) in a sentence, this would be considered plagiarism. Therefore, try hard to rewrite any of those sentences, but of course maintaining the correct interpretation. As for "relocated", this shouldn't be a big deal. In hindsight, using the word isn't totally wrong. However (sigh), if it's use causes nationalistic emotions (which isn't really an excuse on Wikipedia), let's use the most neutral words: "went" or "left for". So she went to Syria, at which time she was nineteen. "Went to Syria" doesn't imply anything but that basic fact. So let's just change that word. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Ameer, thank you for your reply. SD has been warned before for using word like "lies", but does he ever heed any advice!
  • There aren't any full sentences copied exactly from the sources, but there may be a few phrases now, with SD's objections to any words that differs from the source. Remember his "required to" sing songs of praise arguments? I will rephrase a couple.
  • As for "relocation", I think it should be used as is. It is the only way to show that Asmahan did NOT live in Syria as a child, which is what I understand from this source, "She relocated to the Jabal" in Zuhur's Images of Enchantment; "She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s," in Zuhur's Asmahan's Secrets, and "Born in 1918, she lived in Lebanon until 1920, when her father was appointed Governor of the Province of Demergi in Turkey. He soon returned, however, to spend the remainder of his life as an ordinary citizen in his native mountains." in Asmahan.com, and "Her father was governor of the district of Demirci in Turkey, during the last days of the Ottoman Empire. When Syria fell to the allies in 1918 he feared revenge, and on October 24, 1918 he fled the country with his two sons and pregnant wife. They took the boat from İzmir to Beirut, and Asmahan was born on that boat. She was named "Amal" (Arabic: آمال‎), meaning "hopes". She was also called "Emily", but always preferred the name "Amal". Her parents separated in her early childhood. Her father returned to his hometown in Sweida, while the rest of the family emigrated to Egypt (around 1923), where they were naturalized later on." in Classicalarabicmusic.com. All these sources show that Asmahan herself did not live in the Jabal in childhood, although SD has been trying to make this claim in the article all along. Do you see my point?
  • Cheers, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Your claim the she didn't live in the Jabal is not supported by the evidence in Asmahans Secrets: full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
We've already read this paragraph a gazillion times. I read as she did not live in the Jabal in childhood, but only went there for visits. In her other book, Zuhur uses the word "relocated" to the Jabal, which supports my understanding. One of us does not understand English. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Not only that, rewritten text in article from Asmahans Secrets: "During the hostilities, the French shelled the al-Atrash home in the town of al-Qrayya, near Suwayda. Due to the conflict 'Alia fled with her children for Damascus and refused to return"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Well we do agree that if she spent time in the Jabal, it was only for a short period. Anyway, AC I understand your point about "relocated" and I understand SD's point about "moved back". Let's just balance this, as we have done with other tid-bits in the article, and use a word that doesn't imply anythinh except that she went to Syria after Hassan came. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, as a compromise, I will change those instances to "moved to" and "residence in", which are neutral, although the more accurate word should have been "relocated". I will take care of any possible "plagiarism" questions. SD will not change sentences to promote his agenda under the cover of plagiarism. If there are any remaining plagiarism concerns, please state the specific sentences here and I will reword them. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Concerns - Moved from Talk:Al Ameer son

I asked you for help a couple days ago and you didn't answer, I'm asking you again to please take a look at this before it escalates further. Arab cowboy has reverted any attempt by me to remove plagiarism and correct other info.


The only reliable source say "some claimed", this was the first sentence: "It was alleged that Asmahan had been paid a handsome sum (£40,000) for her services to the Allies,but evidence for this is nonexistent and her family claimed she did it out of patriotism, believing it would help the independence of Syria." Sources: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html and http://books.google.com/books?id=ydFpAAAAMAAJ&dq=asmahan+40000&q=40000

Arab Cowboy changed it(with an obscure source) to: "Asmahan had been paid a handsome sum (£40,000) for her services to the Allies, according to one source,[55][56] but another source[38][39] states that evidence for this does not exist in references on her life or British documents on that period, and that her family claimed she did it out of patriotism, believing it would help the cause of the independence of Syria."


And several sections are almost direct copy's from the sources:

Ac had first added "and only remembered visits in the early 1920s" I deleted it and he re-added the exact section from the book with "probably"

So now it says: "she remembered it as a happy and carefree period. Although she did not spend much time in the Jabal and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s, the Jabal was what she saw as her "home" rather than her residences in Lebanon and Turkey." Almost exaclty the same as in Asmahans Secrets: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AAsmahan&diff=307112503&oldid=307099422

"She escaped by night on horseback, disguised as a male horseman and rode from Damascus to the Palestinian border." http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html

"The Allies reneged on their promises for Syrian independence and Asmahan, disgruntled, shifted allegiance to the Nazis. Asmahan boarded a train to Ankara, where she wanted to meet Hitler's ambassador to Turkey and master of Nazi espionage in the Middle East. British officials at the Turkish border refused to let her pass, and she was deported to Beirut." http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:06, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, You said to change "return when she was 19" but this was no problem, AC asked for this section "two bouts of marriage to her cousin and moving back to Syria" can you please make this clear at the talkpage? if she had lived there in childhood and also been married twice and moved back there twice, how come this is not "return" or "move back"? And does this removal of "return" also imply when she went to Egypt? and also answer to my first concern about the money for role in WW2 section.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


"instead of "relocated", "returned", "moved back", or whatever, we use the very simple and neutral "went to" Does this imply for all the "returns" in the article including when she went to Egypt?

If we could use "went to" or "left for" instead of "return" that would be great, but it really depends on what particular sentence. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm talking about this section:

I wrote: "It was alleged that Asmahan had been paid a handsome sum (£40,000) for her services to the Allies,but evidence for this is nonexistent and her family claimed she did it out of patriotism, believing it would help the independence of Syria." Sources: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html and http://books.google.com/books?id=ydFpAAAAMAAJ&dq=asmahan+40000&q=40000

Arab Cowboy changed it(with an obscure source) to: "Asmahan had been paid a handsome sum (£40,000) for her services to the Allies, according to one source,[55][56] but another source[38][39] states that evidence for this does not exist in references on her life or British documents on that period, and that her family claimed she did it out of patriotism, believing it would help the cause of the independence of Syria."

Which is the correct one? please look at the sources. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

They both would need work. I would write "Asmahan had been paid a sum of £40,000 for her services to the Allies, but evidence of the payment does not exist in references on her life or in British documents of that period.[38][39] Her family claimed she did it out of patriotism, believing it would help the cause of Syrian independence.[55][56]" What's wrong with the sources? --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer read the sources, evidence for her service do exist, but not that she received any money, this is the source http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html "Some claimed that she was rewarded with 40,000 pounds (roughly US$72,000) for her service to the Allies, but there is no evidence in any of the sources on her life, or the British documents on the period, to show that she actually received money for the mission. Her family later claimed that she worked with the Allies out of patriotism, believing that this would advance the cause of Syrian independence." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


And Ameer, the removal of "return" and "moved back" is that all of them in the article? including those for Egypt?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I changed my suggestion (thanks for the clarification). I responded to the "return" issue above. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:01, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
But how can you start a sentence with "Asmahan had been paid" when the source say it was alleged? There are "returns" and "moved back" all over that article for both Syria and Egypt, you must be more clear in this. Arab Cowboy asked for one section and you said to remove it in another one. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
We could change it to "Asmahan was allegedly paid" to reflect the sources. I thought he asked about the bit on her marriage to Hassan where it said "relocated" and I suggested we use "went to". Could you bring up specific examples of the usage of those words in the article to the talk page? We could work them out on a case-by-case basis. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)


  • "During two bouts of marriage to her cousin and moving back to Syria, Asmahan's musical career would come to a complete halt, and when she ultimately rejected a return to "respectability" on her relatives’ terms, by returning to Egypt and her singing career,"
  • "and when the marriage to her cousin failed, she returned immediately to Egypt, before she had divorce documents in hand."
  • "and asked for her hand in marriage. So she returned to Syria, at which time she was nineteen. "
  • "In 1939[44], Asmahan returned to Cairo with her daughter and resumed her singing career."
  • "she had not remained in Syria long enough to obtain divorce documents before returning to Egypt, "
  • "However, in the same year, Asmahan returned to Jabal-al-Druze and remarried her cousin, Hassan"
  • "On her way back to Egypt by land, Asmahan met Egyptian film director Ahmed Salem in Jerusalem"
  • "In 1941, during World War II, Asmahan was asked by the Allies to return to Syria "
  • "After the Allies secured Syria during the Syria-Lebanon Campaign, she went back to Damascus "

all I could find--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

All but the last one are acceptable (it's very balanced). Let's just take "back" out of the last line because it's not made clear in the article that Asmahan was in Damascus previously (or is it?) --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes it is: This is from the source: While staying at the Orient Palace Hotel in Damascus, Asmahan received death threats from unknown people, who were believed to be pro-Vichy Druze. She escaped by night on horseback, leaving her luggage behind. She disguised herself as a male horseman and rode all the way to the Syrian-Palestinian border... "After the invasion, she returned to Damascus where she paraded through"--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:28, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
And you just said at the talkpage something about changing one of them.. so what is it? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:32, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I was only referring to the marriage bit at the article talk page. As for the above, all are cleared. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
But both marriage sections are here above: "and asked for her hand in marriage. So she returned to Syria, at which time she was nineteen." and "During two bouts of marriage to her cousin and moving back to Syria", wasn't this what he asked for? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, I am not sure why this sideshow is happening here and not on the Talk page of the article. The only location where I object to the use of "return", "move back", or similar is where she first got married to Hassan and relocated to Syria. All of the sources show that she had not lived in Syria in childhood, but only went there for visits. Zuhur uses the word "relocated" in this instance, which we should also use. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Marhaba AC, when I said above that we should bring the examples up at the talk page, I meant Asmahan's talk page. SD must have misinterpreted. Whatever, let's work this issue out here for now. I know the marriage bit is where your objection is, but so is SD's. This is why I suggest we change this one bit. I have to admit brothers, my patience is running low, so for the sake of compromise (... again) let's just change this one occurrence. If either of you really, fundamentally disagree with me on this one then contact another established user (preferably an admin who doesn't edit this topic area at all) and get his/her opinion. I won't abandon all of the issues in the article, but if you guys can't compromise on this particular issue then I have nothing else to offer. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your patience Ameer. In light of the four sources that I listed on Asmahan's Talk page, all of which show that she did not live in Syria in childhood; one states that she probably went there for visits, what would be your suggested alternative to the word "relocated" in those instances? The question is not what I or SD want, but where is the truth? Thanks again, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:55, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, you have been a great help and I hope you will never leave this discussion. I really appreciate everything you have done. I want you to decide , I have posted many times the quotes about her childhood in the Jabal and her mother fleeing Suwayda with her kids, you decide from here.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you both very much. I don't think I'll be leaving all of the discussions and it's not just about my patience really, but also because I need to concentrate more on other articles I've been working on or plan to work on. Like I said guys, I got nothing else to offer on this particular issue. One of you should contact another admin (who doesn't edit much about the region) and ask him very plainly to take a look at the problem. Don't even mention each others name or any of the recent actions, just ask for his thoughts. Salaamat. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, Arab Cowb just reverted all my changes to the article removing plagiarism, and deleted all the "returned" that you had okeyd here above.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=307250438&oldid=307246524 "let the plagiarism police get me." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
And again: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=307251328&oldid=307250909 --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:23, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer when does it end? you have to take action now, he have went completely against your words, he removed the section you okeyd, including "returned" words here above you okeyd, while keeping the ones for Egypt, and reverted my fixing of plagiarism, you have to do something! --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Note, I've moved this from my talk page and for now on everything about your concerns in the article should be posted here. AC, you shouldn't blanket revert SD's edits, but rather revert particular edits you find are inappropriate because I noticed many of his edits don't have any problems. I didn't tell him what to write, but just to rewrite some of the info that is directly copied from the sources while maintaining the sources' interpretations. I will fully comment on recent changes in a couple hours. --Al Ameer son (talk) 15:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Btw ameer, AC said that Sherifa Zuhur used the word "relocated" when Asmahan moved to Syria, in Asmahans Secrets p 13 she used "return" quote. "Her family fled her homeland, Syria, and she grew so accustomed to Cairo that she longed for it after her marriage and return to Syria." http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:53, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

End of the war

I hope I'm not disrupting Diaa's mediation efforts which I see have failed because of the disruptive editing and the disruptive discussion being done by both AC and SD. I am enabling protection for this article as it is now for a 24-48 hour period (we'll see how things go), and anything either of you want changed will be newly discussed here in this section. I will not tolerate a insults by either of you against yourselves or against me, please keep this about the article. Don't assume bad faith or go on about past history. I wish you two could make up and cooperate to improve this article, but it seems you have entrenched yourselves deeply. Keep any enmity you have against the other to yourselves and don't ever bring it to this talk page again. I don't blame Diaa for leaving and can't believe he didn't leave earlier. Also, do not respond to what I said, just listen to it. Ok, now that that's over, what is it that either of you want. Don't give me any evidence of reverts or disruptive additions, just what each of you want to be added to the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Arab Cowboy

Salam Al-Ameer son:

Here's what I would like to see changed in the article:

1. I do not think that there should be a section dedicated to al-Atrash clan. They have their own article in Wikipedia, and a link to that article should suffice. This article is about Asmahan, not the clan. I can understand if the section is geared toward the "Flight from al-Jabal", but not about the clan.

1.a. As such, I would like the following sentence removed: "The al-Atrash clan was a Syrian Druze family, known for its role in the Syrian Revolution and the resistance against the French mandate of Syria in the 1920s.[4]". This belongs in Atrash, not here.
1.b. The source actually says that the shelling occurred in al-Qrayya, not Suwayda. I hence added a "citation needed" tag.
1.c. This sentence should read as follows: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in the Jabal, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was the Jabal that had imprinted itself as "home" rather than their residences in Lebanon and Turkey.[5]" The opponent editor's interpretation of it changes the meaning to a POV. In fact, other sources show that Asmahan did not live in Suwayda in childhood, but in Lebanon (1918-1920) and then in Turkey (1920-1923) when they immigrated to Egypt, and only went to the Jabal for visits. This is also how I read this sentence (excluding the dates) from this particular source.
I agree, there should not be a subsection for the clan and its history. Since this is an article on Asmahan we should concentrate on her life, but of course include a little background. Now, for the first sentence you want removed, I think half should be removed. I'll restructure the sentence to say "The al-Atrash clan were a well-known Syrian Druze family." If the source says Qraya, then it's Qraya, although it says the al-Atrash home was in Qraya. About 1c; I can't fully read page 36, but from what I can read, it says "She remembered a carefree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in the early 1920s..." So this should not be contested. We could use other sources to say when and where she lived during her childhood, but the sentence you have a problem will not be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
If you use "well-known" to describe the family, please restore "popular" to describe Saad Zaghloul. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
That's fine. On second thought, it's not fine. "Well-known" is not a POV because it's just saying the Atrash family were well-known (which they were), but there are people who liked and disliked them. To say "popular" reflects a POV. Now personally, I like Zaghloul and many, if not most Egyptians do so also. Of course some Egyptians, the British, and perhaps other, may not have liked him too much. Therefore, it's a POV to say he is popular. I will put "nationalist" which neutrally describes him. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
"popular" does not mean that everyone liked him, but the majority did. Also, "popular" is measured in terms of the opinion of the population that he represented, not that of the occupation or the enemy. By the same token, the al-Atrash clan would have probably had NO noteriety at all in a country like Egypt had it not been for Asmahan and Farid. I believe that these two singers brought fame to the clan, and not the other way around. The clan are probably not known at all by the average Egyptian, let alone "well-known". So, the question is, "well-known" by whom? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I'm not saying they would have notoriety in Egypt, they're well known at least in Syria (maybe Lebanon and Palestine too, but surely Syria.) I could reword it to say "well-known in Syria for fighting the French occupiers." --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
The source say: "When the French began the aerial bombardment of the al-Atrash home in al-Qrayya, she left for Damascus and would not return" al-Qrayya is a village/town in the Suwayda governoate, the name Suwayda is used for both the Suwayda governoate and Suwayda town. The full quote from page 36 is: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut. The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape. "I felt untouched by anything truly bad," she reportedly told al-tabi`i. A child would have been unafraid of the political events concerning their elders. Until the Druze rebellion broke out, Asmahan seemed unaware of the desperate times in the world she escaped." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, this confirms the validity of the sentence so, no this will not be removed. As for Qraya/Suwayda, this is no big deal; I'll clarify as succinctly as I can. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
This sentence should read as follows: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in the Jabal, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was the Jabal that had imprinted itself as "home" rather than their residences in Lebanon and Turkey.[6]", not the way it is re-written in the article now. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't want to use "Jabal" because Jabal al-Druze is not mentioned in the article. There's nothing wrong with using "Suwayda" or the "Suwayda area." I just added "residences", but other than that the passage is fine. Nothing in the article has to be word-for-word unless it's in quotes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, you can use "the mountain" or "al-Jabal (the mountain)", but I am seeking accuracy here. It is unclear whether Asmahan's visits were to Suwayda town or al-Qrayya. And, if the shelling occurred in al-Qrayya and that's the place from which they escaped, then how do we know that their visits were to Suwayda? The link in the article from Suwayda went to an another article that described it as a town. I suggest using "the Druze mountain" in place of all of Suwayda, Qrayya, jabal, mountain, etc. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Oops, I realized I was wrong here; Jabal is used throughout the article. I went ahead and replaced Suwayda with Jabal. However, does it say her father was a "judge in Suwayda" in the source? I didn't remove that instance of Suwayda nor the first instance when it says her father was from Suwayda because I don't want to tamper with the source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes the source says he became a judge in Suwayda.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:40, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
That's what I thought. In that case is the Suwayda/Jabal Druze situation accurate now? --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:53, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes it looks good now. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

2. I would like the following sentence to be removed: "Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to bring her back together with his kids. After receiving Fahds message 'Alia told him that the only way her children would return to Suwayda was if he killed her, but that Fahd in return would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed of the fighting in Suwayda. Salim gave her all the money he had, thinking she would eventually return when the chaos would end in Suwayda." It adds no value to the article and is just boring detail.

I'll try to reduce it, but won't remove it totally since it could help illustrate the background of her immediate family. Afterward, if I feel it has no relevance then I'll just take it out completely. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

3. I would like the following sentence to be removed: "However she always referred to her father and Sultan al Atrash to clarify her lineage. She once said to a friend questioning her about her mission during WW2: "Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash".[7]" It was said by Asmahan as some sort of bluff on one occasion, not a statement of identity. If you see that it should stay, then it definitely does not belong in the "Career" section, and should not begin with "However". If you choose to keep it, in a different section and not as a direct quotation and not italicized, I will counter it with statements affirming Asmahan's choice of Egypt as her adopted country.

Again, I can't fully read page 37, but from what I can it clarifies that she said that, but does not say she said it as a bluff or on one occasion. It also doesn't say "always". I'll write it as "She referred to her father and Sultan al Atrash to clarify her lineage, saying 'Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash'". I wish I could see the whole page for complete clarification. I don't see any other place to put it except for the section it's currently in. However, honestly, I don't think we need to have this sentence at all. If someone has access to the full page, I'll see how we could work it in for the sake of balance. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Full quote from page 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refereed to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin (although she was actually a third cousin twice removed) to the Amir al-Atrash (Hassan) and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash"" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Another ok. Does it say anything about World War 2 or just the British? It doesn't matter too much, I won't be picky. Seeing that the source backs the sentence (which will be slightly rewritten for complete accuracy reflecting the reference) I will not remove/relocate it from the section because it's good for balance. Anyhow, it's not saying whether or not she considered herself more Syrian than Egyptian (on the contrary, most of the section is about "Egypt's influence"), but that she obviously did not reject or ignore (actually seems to have been proud of) her clan's heritage. --Al Ameer son (talk) 23:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I do not think it should be in the "Egypt's Influence" section at all; it is unrelated, undermines the whole section and should definitely not start with "However". If you choose to keep it, in a different section, such as a "Flight from al-Jabal" section, and not as a direct quotation and not italicized, I will counter it with statements affirming Asmahan's choice of Egypt as her adopted country. Please note also that the original statement says that Hassan was actually a third cousin twice removed. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 00:34, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I haven't edited that part yet, but "undermine" is not the right word. Just because Egypt is in the section heading doesn't mean everything in it has to be about Egypt. Preferably, it should be only about Egypt. However, the purpose of this little sliver of info is not to undermine the entire section, but rather to expand its horizons. Now, I will read over the article again and might relocate it to the Early life section, but this isn't that likely. "However" will be removed. Let me take a knack at the sentence and we'll see how that goes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:33, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, It was about her mission during WW2 to Syria and it was work for the british. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:22, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it was specifically about her mission during WWII, and this is why, I question the use of the word "always"; the quotation is taken out of context here. I also read it as a bluff, because Zuhur clarifies, in the same quote, that she was actually a thrid cousin, twice removed, of Haasan's, which is consistent with the definition of a bluff. In any case, if you insist on keeping it in the Egypt's Influence section, then please add, after it, the quote from Page 13 of the same book, "The other side of her partiotism was to her adopted country, Egypt." --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for clarifying. Does the source say she was bluffing? If not, for us to state she was bluffing would be a violation of WP:Original research. Also, the point is she was still proud of her Druze heritage. Anyway, what's your take now, I just changed it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

4. I would like the following sentence to be removed or properly referenced: "Her house in Syria is located in the French Quarter of Swuayda. Years after her death, that house was seized by the Syrian government, and became – like much of the French Quarter – a property of the Syrian Army. It took the government sixty-two years to give in to the demands to turn the house into a museum for Asmahan and Farid.[citation needed]". It has needed citation for ages. More specifically, there's no evidence that Asmahan ever OWNED a house in Suwayda and when she died, she was already divorced from Hassan and back in Egypt, so she did not inherit him. This needs to be sourced.

This really should have a source. Could somebody find one? Until then, I'll keep it, but hidden. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

5. The November 23 birthdate contradicts with other sourced birthdates already in the article. I hence added a "citation needed" tag. I do not care which is the correct one, but the date needs to be consistent.

Well, on page 25 in Zuhur, it says she was born on the 23rd of November, so I'll replace the October 25. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:03, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

I may add more later.

It's time to remove all sentences in the article where citation has been needed and not provided. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 07:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

I suggest we wait a little longer before doing that, maybe one more week? I don't like uncited info in articles myself, but the divorce bit seems important if it's true. If not, scratch it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:14, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
how about the first sentence in the Legacy section? - still vague and uncited. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Yea, I just noticed that. I made it a part of the hidden comment since they're quite related. The whole comment should be removed within a week too if no source is provided to back it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:59, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks and Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:13, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Supreme Deliciousness

By Arabic you mean Arabic Wikipedia? I'm probably not going to change that since I can't read or write in Arabic. If you can, go ahead, this has nothing to do with this article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
  • 2. This I want removed from legacy section: "The Egyptian Media Production City and a private investor jointly produced a television series" unnecessary text no one cares about. "Farid al-Atrash was played by Egyptian actor Ahmed Shaker Abdel-Latif[53]." Its of no relevance to the article which actor played Farid al atrash.
The first sentence seems relevant since the rest of the sentence says "depicting the life (and death) of Asmahan." The Farid part does have no relevance so yes that should be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
What is the relevance of Sulaf's nationality in the article? None. If you are going to delete reference to the actor who played Farid, then please remove also Sulaf's nationality. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
There's no relevance problem here. Farid was totally removed because he's not Asmahan and has his own article. Sulaf doesn't have an article so it's good to provide minimal background i.e. "Syrian actress." If she was any other nationality we would put that, no big deal. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, the farid sentence is still in the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 3. This I want removed, in the death section: "in her family’s burial plot at the Fustat plain in Cairo" I look at the source, and there is nothing saying or implying that its a "family burial plot"
I just looked and you're right there is nothing on "family burial plot". This will be removed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Do people get buried in unmarked graves next to unknown dead people or do they get buried in family burial plots? Since Asmahan and Farid had restored the burial site then it was their family's burial plot there. They were not buried in unidentified gravesites. There are Atrashes who live in and are citizens of Egypt. Like everyone else, they have a family burial plot. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The source doesn't say other Atrashes were buried there. If you find a source that says that it was a "family burial plot" then fine. The source used mentions that Farid, Asmahan and another famous Egyptian entertainer are buried there so I think the cemetery is not really for "families," but rather celebrated figures. Farid and Asmahan were both famous and it also happens that they were siblings. So, if you bring a reliable source confirming it as a family burial plot by all means we will put it in, but until then we just can't state that. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Ameer, the "family burial plot" is still in the article.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
This source says that Fuad, Farid, and Asmahan are buried there. I guess this makes it a family plot. There are no plots for singers only in Egypt. Everyone is buried with their family. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Man, I don't want to sound picky, really, but I still think we can't write "family burial plot." However, I suggest you ask another admin who is more familiar with guidelines to see if this wouldn't violate original research. It is interesting that Fuad is also buried there which should be mentioned in the article. Go ahead and add it with the additional source when the block expires shortly. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
ok, i will do that. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:28, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 4. You removed a lot from the early life section including the Adham Khanjar incident, that section is clearly referenced in Asmahans Secrets page 38 as "It was in fact the Adham Khanjar incident that sparked Asmahans emigration to Egypt". And that it was her relative Sultan al Atrash that had participated in it, I just feel its important info and shouldn't have been removed.
Huh, I overlooked that. We should really try to keep the info in this article tight on Asmahan so I removed a lot of al-Atrash stuff since they have their own article. But since the source says that exactly it does seem relevant. Let me take a second look at the section to see if it's needed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Did you take a look at this and still don't found it important? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 08:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about that SD, I'll try to put it in, but in a reduced form. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC) Actually, looking at the article there's no need to mention the incident since we'd have to elaborate more on it (what the incident was exactly, how al-Atrash was related to it, and the result of the incident i.e. the hostilities in the Jabal). What's mentioned now suffices, but a compromise would perhaps be "When fighting between French and Syrian forces erupted following the Adham Khanjar incident and resulted in the shelling of the al-Atrash home in al-Qrayya near Suwayda in the Jabal al-Druze, 'Alia fled with her children for Damascus and refused to return." Does this work? We shouldn't go any further. --Al Ameer son (talk) 11:56, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok that sounds good, but thats a very long sentence, maybe you should try to divide it into several sentences. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:04, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
It looks good how it is now, but the direct link to "Jabal al-Druze" was removed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 14:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 5. Problem: Suwayda - Jabal Druze, both words are used all over the article, Jabal druze covers almost all of Suweyda governorate, but the reader might not understand this and think they are to separate things.
I apologize for that (didn't realize Jabal was used later in the article). In that case, did Asmahan live in Suwayda city or next to Suwayda? If it's the latter then I have to clarify this in the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
  • 6. In the word Suwayda here: "When fighting between French and Syrian forces erupted and resulted in the shelling of the al-Atrash home in Suwayda" it should be linked to the Suwayda governorate (where al-Qrayya is) to not confuse it with the Suwayda town. Or "al-Atrash home in the Jabal".
Will do. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The source used to back the first sentence doesn't totally back that sentence (it says they "never again sang in the Syrian dialect". However, I put more trust in the Zuhur source. If this becomes a big issue, we'll have to resort to attribution meaning "according to... However, on the contrary..." --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
I used the word "virtually", which means almost. If you would like to change it to "almost", then that's fine. There's only one song (in a bedouin dialect) of which I know that is not in the Egyptian dialect in Asmahan's repertoire of more than 40 songs. This one song is attributed to the lyricist Bairam Al-Tunsi (from Alexandria) and was filmed in a bedouin setting in Asmahan's second Egyptian movie, Gharam wa Intiqam. I would not put any more trust in Zuhur's source than any other. There have been "questions" about that author. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
The reason I prefer Zuhur is because her book(s) are dedicated to the subject of Asmahan, while the other source is one that discusses the Druze, particularly those in Israel. The Druze in Israel source, if I'm not mistaken, says "never again sang in the Syrian dialect" not "virtually" or "almost". Zuhur on the other hand states Asmahan "sang a number of compositions...more closely related to folk themes, both Syrian and Egyptian." Actually, they don't really contradict. Zuhur is not saying Asmahan indeed sung in Syrian dialect, but some of her compositions were related to Syrian folk "themes" which doesn't necessarily mean Syrian "dialect." So again, no problem here. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
  • 9. In the immigration to Egypt section it now says: "were confronted by Egyptian immigration officials for not possessing any passports." This is the direct quote from the source AS p39: "`Alia had no proper traveling documents"
Is you concern plagiarism? If so I'll just reword it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
In the video clip reference, the interview with Fuad al-Atrash, he uses the word passports. He says, "at the border, we did not have passports or anything". (please note that Fuad is spelled Fu'ad in some places in the article. let's make it consistent as Fuad. also, two "son" should be two "sons".) --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
Ohhh, well this is not a problem. Obviously "proper traveling documents" are "passports". Plus Fuad Atrash confirms this so no original research on our part. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 10, I think her lebanese part(her mother) should also be in the lead, Syrian-Lebanese-Egyptian.
This seems unnecessary (too many nationalities). Since she was a Syrian citizen at one point and Egyptian at another point we should just stick to Syrian-Egyptian. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
This has been over-killed in debate before. The lead now is the best compromise we will ever reach. It would best be

protected. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:41, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. --Al Ameer son (talk) 05:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 11. Excessive use of the word "Egyptian" in many places in the article, in the lead for example. "Having immigrated to Egypt in childhood, she became the apprentice of Egyptian classical music pioneers"
No, that just makes sense. It's not excessive since the singers that are being described are indeed Egyptian and she became their apprentice after moving to Egypt. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
  • 12: This I want removed from the article, I just saw it, "However, the other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." there is absolutely nothing on page 37 saying anything close to this. The segment after this says "I did. But, I was created for another purpose. I prefer the work of Farid, and the work of Umm Kulthum, and of art." this has nothing to do with "Patriotism belonging to Egypt" but love for music etc. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

:If the source doesn't back that then we have to remove it. Thankfully, this won't ruin the balance since it says something about being more loyal to her happiness in Egypt than her clan. Anyway, I'll just hide it until AC could find a source (giving it a 7-day limit like the rest of the hidden comments.) --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC) Never mind, AC found the source. --Al Ameer son (talk) 20:23, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, it is on p. 13, not 37, as I had pointed out in the Arab Cowboy section, above. I corrected it in the article. Also, someone had removed the sentence, "They were later naturalized as Egyptian citizens." I've just restored it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:24, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Al ameer, "Syrian homeland" is sourced in the AS book and was not allowed to be added to article therefore, "adopted country" can not be allowed. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
"Homeland" and similar were rejected as subjective by mediator in previous discussions. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:29, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
It depends on what context we're using "homeland." It shouldn't be stated to contradict the "adopted country" bit. So how do you intend on using it? --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

First line in the marriage section, "So she returned with him to her Syrian homeland" - the wording "Syrian homeland" is sourced--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Honestly, I think we should just state "...returned with him to Syria" for simplicity. Why state "homeland"? It's use in this case doesn't seem flagrant anyway since it is not contradicting the fact that Asmahan chose Egypt as her adopted country which must be stated explicitly. Please, let's make this compromise here and use "homeland" and let, what I think is, a Syrian-Egyptian rivalry of some sorts end. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I dont see any problem with "She returned with him to her Syrian homeland" - it is sourced, and the part about "chose Egypt as her adopted country" - I can not confirm if it really says so because I can not view page 13, and I do not have any good faith in him, for very good reasons. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Well, regardless of whether or not you have good faith in him, we as in the community must assume good faith. Therefore, I state again, let's make a compromise on this one. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:52, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I must say im disappointed, I don't see any wrong in my proposal, but let it stay as it is now instead of replacing it with just "homeland", Is there somewhere else in the article where "Syrian homeland" would be acceptable to you?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I think where you wanted it now, in the marriage section, would be an acceptable place. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
I got a better idea, how about: "Asmahan's cousin, Prince Hassan al-Atrash, came from Syria and asked for her hand in marriage. So she returned with him to her homeland," .. is this ok? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:19, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
That's fine. Go ahead an make the edit. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 13. Ameer, the latest edits by AC hey are highly POV. "The migrant family was later naturalized as Egyptian citizens." if you are naturalized in Egypt , then of course it is Egyptian citizenship, this is what it means. This is excessive use of the word "Egyptian". --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 21:10, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
who has deleted this sentence in the first place, without discussion? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
What section is it in? Anyway, SD is right about this one being redundant. If it's clear in the previous sentence or two sentences that we're talking about their immigration to Egypt, then yes, obviously they were naturalized as "Egyptian" citizens rather than any other country. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asmahan&diff=305510040&oldid=305509387 also the farid article has "naturalized as Egyptian citizens" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:02, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, removed the redundancy. I'll do the same in Farid's article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:19, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
In the Farid article its enough with "Later, they were naturalized as citizens." of course its the Egyptian government that naturalized them.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:48, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
  • 14. In the Egypt influece section it says "and relocation to Syria" I looked up the word "relocate" in a dictionary, it says "To move to or establish in a new place" "To become established in a new residence" which is not true since she came from there and lived there before. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 23:30, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
That looks like a mistake, it should be "return". --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:54, 2 August 2009 (UTC) Actually, there seems to be a frequent use of "return." Some would be need to be replaced. Any substitute word suggestions? --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
"moving back to Syria" ? just replace it with something better. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Ok, but could you make the edit? I'm a little busier today than I thought. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Done, thank you.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:40, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

This is all I can found right now, maybe ill ad more later. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2009 (UTC)


Was she not Lebanese as well? Her mother...and she was raised in Lebanon.... once again Arab cowboy omitting truth. She was Syrian Lebanese. Lebanese bebe (talk) 09:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

  1. ^ Newspaper Article al-Mada, "وشاءت لها الاقدار أن ترحل في الماء أيضا في حادث غامض في ترعة طلخا على نهر النيل قرب مدينة المنصورة يوم 14- 7 - 1944"
  2. ^ Newspaper Article by Abdel-Fadil Taha 2008-05-23 Al-Quds Al-Arabi, "وحصلت الأسرة علي الجنسية المصرية وظلت تنعم بها ومنهم اسمهان بالطبع"
  3. ^ Um Kalthoum / Oum Kalsoum - Anthologie de la Musique Arabe 1931, Volume 4 - FLAC/320.
  4. ^ Provence, Michael (2005). The great Syrian revolt and the rise of Arab nationalism (illustrated ed.). University of Texas Press. p. 72. ISBN 9780292706804.
  5. ^ Zuhur 2000 p=36
  6. ^ Zuhur 2000 p=36
  7. ^ Zuhur 2000, p. 37
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