Talk:Armenia–Azerbaijan border crisis

Lead, whether to describe this as a "border conflict" or "invasion/incursion/assault/occupation"

It is not possible to claim that Azerbaijan invaded territory of Armenia, because there's no established border at the moment, and no investigation has been conducted. Macron and EU parliament only express their opinion, but an opinion is not a fact, in the absence of a fact finding mission. So any opinion should be attributed, and not presented as a fact. Grandmaster 16:28, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Despite the border not being demarcated, advancing several kilometres into Armenia proper isn't an acceptable margin of error in any logical sense to argue this. Secondly, Macron and EU representatives are high level state representatives and their statements hold factual value (they aren't random partisan nationalistic analysts), also it shows a consensus of opinions on the matter. I don't think even Turkey's Erdogan, who usually unconditionally supports Azerbaijan has released a statement about this incident. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 18:41, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

First off, it is not possible to say where exactly the border passes, and where Azerbaijani troops are located. There are different Soviet era maps that show different border arrangement. And both the EU and Macron are politicians. Macron certainly has his own issues with Azerbaijan and Turkey, and the EU has not conducted any investigation on the matter. The views should be attributed to each party, and not presented as a fact. Grandmaster 22:13, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

A mere glance at all unequivocal international calls to withdraw the Azerbaijani forces from Armenia's territory is enough to say that Azerbaijani servicemen crossed into Armenia's territory. Only the Azerbaijani government denies trespassing, and in Azerbaijani government vs the world argument it is natural for Wikipedia to give preference to what the the world says. "Macron certainly has his own issues with Azerbaijan and Turkey and that is why he is saying Azerbaijan is trespassing" idea is WP:Original - I don't think you can present a reliable non-partisan reference that would support it. The "EU has not conducted any investigation on the matter" statement is WP:ORIGINAL, too - how do you know this and why do you think a serious organisation like European Union or European Parliament would take any information from any of the sides without checking? Countries and international organisations have many ways of checking the information they need (like via accredited military attaches); who says a special fact-checking expedition is a pre-requisite for confirming that each kilometre of Armenia is truly in Armenia? Regards, --Armatura (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Those statements are made by politicians, which have their own political agenda. The only power that has boots on the ground in that region is Russia, and Russia does not say anything about border violations. As for politicians, we remember how the USA claimed that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, and he had none. At this point, it is not precisely known where exactly the border passes, due to existence of conflicting Soviet maps. Therefore any claims of trespassing must be attributed to the party who made them, and not presented as facts. Grandmaster 16:34, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I am sorry but that is not the case - it is not "just Russia with boots on the ground". See the the link I provided - 1) military representatives (from US, France, Greece, Ukraine, and Georgia) visited that area to get familiarized with the situation on the ground, and 2) a group of ambassadors (including France, Germany, Italy, Poland and Greece) visited that area to get acquainted with the situation on the spot and the 3) EU delegation headed by EU Ambassador Andrea Victorin also went there for the same purpose - to witness the situation on the ground. So, no, the situation is objectively very far from "only Russia's there and it's staying silent" situation that you are describing. As you can see - a diverse lot of third-party people are there, with a lot of on-the-ground first-hand familiarization with what's going on there and a lot of third parties not staying silent but openly saying Azerbaijan is trespassing and should withdraw its forces. So let's avoid conspiracy theories on hidden political anti-Azerbaijan agendas and original research about silence, please, as per WP:OR policy. Thanks. --Armatura (talk) 18:23, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

We don't know what the findings of those visits were, they did not publish any reports. Therefore in the absence of precisely established borders we cannot claim something as a fact just because Macron or State department speaker said so (the official statement by US state department did not accuse Azerbaijan, btw). That is why proper attribution of claims would be more in line with WP:NPOV. Grandmaster 20:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Disagree, I am afraid it's a claim for Azerbaijani government only, and pretty obvious fact per the rest of the sources. And it's not just "Macron and State department speaker" (who, btw, also said Azerbaijan to withdraw its forces). The calls from European Parliament are straightforward and unequivocal - if you have a reliable reference that says all those voices are biased for some reason against Azerbaijan or are based on fabricated / non-existing evidence - you are welcome to bring those references to everybody's attention here. It's good for the article lead to reflect the mainstream info and it does so currently. You are welcome to request a third party opinion or RfC or whatever else would suit the purpose. Regards, --Armatura (talk) 21:38, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

I think the argument that "because the borders were never formally demarcated there cannot be an invasion, incursion, or occupation" is tantamount to saying that because we cannot formally define a grain of sand from a heap of sand, there is no difference between the two. Let's focus on how Azerbaijan's actions are reported by independent parties.

The following independent parties either a) called for Azeri forces to withdraw from internationally recognized Armenian territory OR described Azerbaijan's actions as "invasion," "incursion," "seizure," or "assault" of sovereign Republic of Armenia territory:

1. European Parliament
2. United States
3. France
4. two of three co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group.
5. openDemocracy: "Azerbaijan has made further incursions since the 2020 ceasefire, advancing at least 45 square kilometres into Armenia"
6. Russian Analytical Digest Journal: "Azerbaijan’s military incursion into Armenia in May 2021 as well as other occasions"
7. International Crisis Group / FP: "In September, Azerbaijani forces seized territory inside Armenia proper."
8. nationalinterest.org: Azerbaijani soldiers’ border incursions into Armenia
9. Human Rights Watch: "in mid-September, when Azerbaijan made incursions into Armenia and along the border."
10. Institute for War and Peace: "in light of Azerbaijan incursions into Armenia back in the summer of 2021 and a flagrant attack on Armenia only last month"
11. Eurasianet: "Azerbaijan launches wide-ranging attacks against Armenia"
12. Time Magazine: "a democratic nation that was recently invaded by its authoritarian neighbor."
13. Foreign Policy: "Azerbaijan’s Aggression Has Forced Armenia Into Russia’s Arms...Prior to Azerbaijan’s brazen assault on Armenia’s sovereign territory"
14. The Boston Globe: : "The world failed to act in 2020 when Azerbaijan attacked Armenia. What’s happening to Ukrainians is similar to what happened to Armenians. These are not mutually exclusive events. The parallels could not be starker."

How do you feel about the word "incursion" to describe this in the lead section? I'm fine with "invasion" but "incursion" is less polemical and accurately describes how this event transpired and is reported by independent news outlets and official representatives who are independent from the conflict (EU, US, France).

@Grandmaster @Armatura @Ավետիսյան91 @Dallavid Humanatbest (talk) 14:44, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Many of the above sources are just opinion pieces that cannot be used in Wikipedia for statements of facts. The last 3 in particular. The vast majority of reliable sources report on border clashes, for example Euronews, france24, Reuters, The Guardian, CNBC, CNN and many others. Grandmaster 15:19, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• When Armenia refuses to start the border delimitation and demarcation negotiations, and when Armenia and Azerbaijan border is not fixed and determined, it is BLATANT violation of WP:NPOV to state "Azerbaijan OCCUPIES parts of Syunik and Gegharkunik provinces on the Armenia–Azerbaijan border[1][2][3]". Wikipedia mut not be a tool for one-sided views of the racists of either of the parties in dispute. 212.174.38.3 (talk) 07:52, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Question

Hello Grandmaster, can you please explain your edit here [1] ? You changed from "establish it through the use of force" to "compel Armenia", claiming "Inaccurate translation from Russian. Added link to original speech". While Aliev clearly said “The creation of the Zangezur corridor fully meets our national, historical and future interests. We are implementing the Zangezur Corridor, whether Armenia wants it or not. If she wants, we will solve this issue easier, if she does not want, we will solve it by force" on his April interview [2]. You also linked an unrelated to his April quotes article from March 6. Kindly explain your rationale here, as this just seems like a whitewash attempt (and a bad one I might add). Regards, ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:00, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

That is inaccurate translation. If you check his original speech in Azerbaijani or Russian, he said "we will compel them". In Russian it sounds like "мы их заставим". I provided a link to his full speech on official state news agency Azertag, which you removed for unknown reason. It is always better to refer to the original source. Turan translated inaccurately. In general, quality of English translation on Azerbaijani news sites is not that good. They often use google. Мы заставим их does not necessarily mean the use of military force. There are different ways of compelling. Turan made it sound as if he talked about military solution. Grandmaster 10:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

As I said already, I saw your link of [azertag], and it is from March 6. I repeat, it is not related to Aliev's April statements. The translation from his April statements is in fact correct, "Necə ki, mən müharibədən əvvəl və müharibə dövründə demişdim ki, bizim torpağımızdan öz xoşunuzla rədd olun, yoxsa sizi zorla çıxaracağıq. Belə də oldu. Zəngəzur dəhlizinin taleyi də eyni olacaq." [2]. "Zorla" meaning by force, forcibly, violently, coercively, hardly, under compulsion. If you are fluent in Azerbaijani as claimed in your page, you shouldn't had a problem in understanding this. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

In any case, transport corridor and border demarcation are 2 different issues. What is the connection between these statements by Aliyev and border delimitation issues? Any connection must be supported by a third party reliable source, and I do not see any. Grandmaster 16:26, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

As it is highly relevant to the background section, being an invasion threat before the actual invasion of Lake Sev? Grandmaster your chain of replies here are so strange. At first, you complain about “translations being wrong” for unknown to me reasons. Then when I show you, an Azeri, Aliev’s exact words in Azerbaijani and even in the Official President of Az website [3], stated “expel them by force”, now you change your argument to “not being relevant” here somehow. May I suggest you to be a bit more objective, and to take off the Az POV lenses for a second. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 07:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not about my objectivity. You cannot just drop unrelated statements of Aliyev, because you think that they are relevant to this issue. It is a WP:OR. A connection between the events needs to be established by a reliable source. As for Aliyev's statement, the article originally stated "through the use of force", which is not exactly what he said. "We force them" or "compel them" is the exact translation, so I have no objections to present wording. But that does justify the relevance of this statement to the border demarcation issue. Grandmaster 13:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Basic judgement and common sense is enough to connect the two because they're obviously related and a source isn't needed to connect the events. If someone promises to do something and then proceeds to fulfill that promise or act on it a few months later it doesn't take geniuses to link the two together. Read WP:you don't need to cite that the sky is blue. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Just as before and during the war, I said that they must get out of our lands or we will expel them by force. And so it happened. This part is about 7 occupied districts, not the corridor. We are implementing the Zangazur corridor, whether Armenia likes it or not. If they do, it will be easier for us to implement, if not, we will enforce it. This part is about the corridor. The quote needs to be accurate. And the connection needs to be demonstrated not by your own assumption, but by a reliable source. No original research is a rule. Grandmaster 19:21, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Full quote We are implementing the Zangazur corridor, whether Armenia likes it or not. If they do, it will be easier for us to implement, if not, we will enforce it. Just as before and during the war, I said that they must get out of our lands or we will expel them by force. And so it happened. The same will apply to the Zangazur corridor. [3]. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. "We will expel them by force" was about occupied territories. That is not about about corridor. Better just to quote it as it is, though I still see no direct connection between this quote and border demarcation. Not a single reliable source made this connection. Grandmaster 20:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't think that you read the full quote. Did you miss the part where Aliev followed up with The same will apply to the Zangazur corridor ? The April statement in the background section was completely fine, and was reflecting what was said in his statements, as evident by his "Zangezur Corridor" followup, and how "the same will apply". Please, don't change the stable version again before reaching consensus. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 22:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

That is your personal interpretation of the source. Why remove the full quote, so that the reader could judge for himself? And there was no consensus, you just made your edit 30 minutes ago. Grandmaster 22:54, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Just as before and during the war, I said that they must get out of our lands or we will expel them by force. And so it happened. The same will apply to the Zangazur corridor. Wikipedia isn’t a “personal interpretation” website, and the statement was represented perfectly fine before your additions. Let me get this straight, at first you say that the “translations were wrong”. I then present to you the Official Website of President of Azerbaijan stating precisely the language “expel them by force” and followed up by “the same will apply to Zangezur corrdior”. By the most basic deduction, if someone says “If you don’t do X I will expel you by force. The same will apply to Y“. Then logically, it means that “expel by force” is going to be used in regards to Y as well (“the corridor”), as it is literally said and implied in the next sentence. Wikipedia isn’t just “exact quotations” only, the statement was objectively and neutrally represented as I explained. There also wasn’t quotation template used as far as I could tell [1]. You made those unnecessary additions, some of them being a clear POV like changing the wording to “compel” (this is from someone who all of the sudden wants “the exact quote” now). I’m sorry Grandmaster, but your arguments just seem like WP:JDLI at this point. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 18:07, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Grandmaster, an international expert on South Caucasus Laurence Broers views the advance of Azerbaijani forces in Syunik as a pressure on Armenia to get the Syunik corridor Azerbaijan desired, pointing to the connection between what president Aliyev threatened and what the Azerbaijani troops currently do at Am-Az border, please have a look at the BBC Russia (a reliable source) article I added. Regards, --Armatura (talk) 16:47, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that is a good source. And Broers is a good scholar. But president's statements are not mentioned. In particular, what is the relevance of Aliyev's statement about past ethnic composition of Yerevan to the border demarcation? That is a problem here. Grandmaster 19:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Deliberately adding false information

Hello. Someone is deliberately adding false information to the infobox. First, they used multiple reports of the same incident to raise the number of injured Azeri servicemen to 5, then they used Armenian claim that Azerbaijan denied (https://publika.az/news/nida_xeber/364261.html) as Per Azerbaijan. Can someone intervene in this? 185.81.80.130 (talk) 07:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

You are using a source that does not even match. Next time learn the rules before trying to make a report and read the sources. Azerbaijan did not deny the one drone shot down over an hour ago with picture evidence. It denied a separate incident.

Azerbaijan surely won't comment on every single one of Armenia's obscure claims. Armenia said that it shot down two UAVs and Azerbaijan denied this (https://report.az/qarabag/azerbaycan-ordusuna-mexsus-iki-eded-pilotsuz-ucus-aparatinin-guya-basarkecer-uzerinde-vurulmasi-barede-ermenistan-terefinin-yaydigi-melumat-yalandir/). Armenia showing some random metal pictures doesn't mean that it is true. Also, do you realize that you're adding Armenia's claim as Azerbaijan's statement? If you want this to be covered, add it to the timeline section (and all parts of the incident, not just Armenian government claim). Armenian government literally hide their dead soldiers from the previous war (https://news.am/eng/news/646607.html), how are they a reliable source? 185.81.80.130 (talk) 09:47, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

User:ZaniGiovanni, you've done the same exact thing. Please read above. That's not Per Azerbaijan. 185.81.80.200 (talk) 23:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Focus on the content/sources displayed in this article. Nothing you linked here was added by me, and "per Azerbaijan" doesn't mean everything must be cited from the Az sources, which you don't seem to comprehend. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 00:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 30 July 2021

Put {{pp-dispute}} at the top lomrjyo^{(talk•contrib)} 11:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done — xaosflux ^Talk 13:10, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 31 July 2021

Armenian Ministry of Defence claims that Azerbaijani forces fired upon a a logistic support vehicle delivering food to the Armenian military positions in Yeraskh. As a result, this vehicle was seriously damaged (source: Armenia Today). This information should be added to the timeline section, and the text "1 military truck damaged" should be added to the infobox. 185.81.82.110 (talk) 19:57, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done this page is no longer protected and may be edited directly as appropriate. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:35, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 31 July 2021 (2)

Grammar fixes:

"in Armenia–Nakhchivan border." to "on the Armenia–Nakhchivan border."

"The clashes then spread to Gegharkunik–Kalbajar area." to "The clashes then spread to the Gegharkunik–Kalbajar area." AntonSamuel (talk) 18:36, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done this page is no longer protected and may be edited directly as appropriate. — xaosflux ^Talk 12:36, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 October 2021

"On 11 October 2021, an Armenian civilian named Aram Tepnants was shot dead by Azerbaijani snipers in the village of Martakert."

"On 15 October 2021, Azerbaijani MoD reported that an Azerbaijani soldier was killed by an Armenian sniper fire."

These are not related to the Armenian-Azerbaijani border crisis, but the Artsakh conflict. Also, "On 15 and 16 October 2021, Azerbaijani forces undertook shelling measures against the village of Yeraskh, causing fires which damaged crops belonging to the Armenian villagers." Change this to a neutral tone, all sources are Armenian and Azerbaijani denied this [1].

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. This is clearly a controversial request. As for "Azerbaijan denied this", well, duh, of course they did, and so long we clearly attribute the statements to the Azerbaijani MoD, readers get all the information they need to be able to judge the validity of this. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Untrustable sources used by non-objective users

The source "Armenpress" is being owned directly by Armenians. The source is not Trustable. Please try to consolidate your claims about civilian injuries with objective media. BerkBerk68 (talk) 15:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

It is really hard to understand why User:Mr.User200 reverts the edits without giving a straight answer and making "whataboutism" instead, and removes this section from talk page. BerkBerk68 (talk) 16:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a WP:FORUM. You started your rant with a header of "Untrustable sources used by non-objective users", already using personal attacks not even against one but against some perceived group of users. The news agency Armenpress which is the oldest in the country is used for Armenian claims, per Armenia, just like Azeri sources are used for Az claims, per Azerbaijan. WP:BIASED sources can be used if attributed properly, like here. Now take your rants out of this talk page, and stop unduly characterizing fellow editors. Lastly, you would highly benefit from reading WP:NPA and WP:AGF. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 17:27, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The source usage is not openly described. It is not visible that the claim belongs to Armenians or "per armenia" in every part of the page, despite using Armenian sources. BerkBerk68 (talk) 08:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 16 November 2021

Update casualties on infobox. Today, 15 soldiers were killed, and 12 more were captured on Armenia's side. This means that overall 23 soldiers were killed and 18 were captured. Source.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:38, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Here I've provided you a source for it. What more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.81.81.225 (talk) 17:52, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 17 November 2021

Update casualties on infobox. Armenian government reports that one of their soldiers were killed, 13 became POWs and 24 are missing source.

It have been added, however is a contradictory statement since other official Armenian sources, Parlamient and MOD officials have said that the clashes left over 15 dead, not only one. Most likely in those 24 missing are included some KIA, not present in your source. For that reason and to avoid double counting of casualties. Let's wait for a final/latest source. Preferably Armenian MOD.Mr.User200 (talk) 12:35, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Those were preliminary reports. This is the latest one. 24 MIA are either dead or captured, but they are still casualties. It should be added back, or add 15 killed instead of 1 killed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.164.91 (talk) 11:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Done but the previous report have been dismissed. Armenian MOD changing numbers every time they gave a release. Seems they don't have a final number and changes will continue to take place.Mr.User200 (talk) 11:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Azerbaijan casualties

After the 44-day war in Karabakh, the irretrievable losses of the defense and security sector of Azerbaijan from November 10, 2020 to January 31, 2021 amounted to 110 people, Turan reports citing the Caspian Institute of Military Research.

According to the institute, 15 soldiers died in combat conditions, 10 were blown up by mines, the rest died in non-combat conditions.

Most of the deaths of the military were confirmed by the Ministry of Defense of Azerbaijan and other law enforcement agencies.

In addition to 15 soldiers who died in combat and 10 who were blown up by mines, another 14 people died as a result of a helicopter crash, 12 in car accidents, 12 as a result of accidents, 10 died of diseases, 9 died unknown reasons, 9 - from war injuries, 5 - as a result of hazing, 2 - during special operations, 12 - committed suicide.

Of the total losses, 84, including 11 combat and 73 non-combat, occurred in 2021.

At the same time, in the pre-war 2019, according to the Institute, irretrievable losses amounted to 47 people, including 9 of them who died in combat conditions, 38 - non-combat.

In January 2022, the losses already amounted to 11 people, including 1 military man died in combat conditions, 3 died as a result of hazing, 2 - for unknown reasons, 3 - due to illness, 1 - as a result of an accident, 1 - committed suicide.

The Caspian Institute of Military Research notes a trend of increasing losses, and especially non-combat ones. https://caspiandefense.wordpress.com/2022/01/31/vətən-muharibəsindən-sonra-azərbaycan-azi-110-hərbcisini-itirib/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SoadCore1 (talk • contribs) 15:49, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

The institute compiles casalties in both the NK conflict and the border crisis. To explain further, an Azerbaijani soldier killed near Shushi is not related to the border crisis. Makes no sense to reference it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.219.166.126 (talk) 15:55, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine on the crisis

What is the impact of the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine on this crisis? Is it getting worse due to it, or is a distraction of Russia making it less bad? MaitreyaVaruna (talk) 20:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Worse. Russia in this space acted as a moderator in recent years, not an instigator. With Russia occupied elsewhere, there is a flareup. Vici Vidi (talk) 18:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you guys add the recent Azerbaijani attack on Armenian border and cities that happened today?

These attacks happened several hours ago and I’m surprised nothing has been written about it. 159.250.110.3 (talk) 00:13, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a newspaper, it is way too early to adding this, lets wait for reliable sources to analyze and comment A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 00:26, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

How about now, Russki? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koseh nanat (talk • contribs) 15:07, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

Causalities

I recently reverted some unsourced changes to the causalities numbers. I didn't really check the sources, but their multitude sugggest a WP:OR effort to sum them up, which makes already usually untrustworthy figures even more problematic. I think the numbers should be rechecked, updated and if possible supported by a single source. 109.119.205.238 (talk) 01:56, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

2023

Was there any discussion on the article move to include 2023? Last timeline update seems to be October 2022, there is no mention in the article for 2023 currently. - Indefensible (talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I believe it is because there were no new border incidents this year. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 07:13, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

A map that actually shows Armenian territory that is ocupied, should be created.

For this article (and also in related articles), a map that actually shows Armenian territory that is ocupied, should be created and added. It would be useful, because it would show the precise location.

The map in the article only shows the border battles of 2021. More battles have taken place since then, including this year and this month.

For instance a map released by Armenia, showing its territories that have been occupied during this border conflict, could be useful:

https://oc-media.org/armenia-releases-map-of-territories-seized-by-azerbaijan-since-2020/

I sent a request in Wikimedia Commons to the original uploader of File:2021 Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Clashes.svg which is inside the information box of this article. Hopefully the user agrees and creates a map.

Multituberculata (talk) 09:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

File:Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Crisis.svg has been created by the user. Multituberculata (talk) 11:55, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Separation of incursions into Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) vs Republic of Armenia

I notice the article has included military incursions by Azerbaijan into both Armenia and Artsakh.

However, the bulk of the article and its title suggest the crisis is specific to Republic of Armenia and not Artsakh.

These are different territories with different governments and different recognition from international bodies.

I will be moving the reports of territorial incursions by Azerbaijan into Artsakh into a subsection, that is distinct from the main article. Once this is done, it might be worth renaming the article or moving that section to its own article (depending on how much content there is).

any feedback? Humanatbest (talk) 16:23, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

"Run on sentence" use of colon and semi-colon

@Archives908

You have implemented the following change:

Original:

"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities: advocating for bilateral border demarcation, respect for the 2020 ceasefire conditions, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces."

Your version:

"Various countries, supranational organizations, and human rights organizations have called for an end to the hostilities and supporting bilateral border demarcation, respecting the terms of the 2020 ceasefire agreement, and for Azerbaijan to pull back its forces from Armenian territory."

Most English style guidelines (including the Wikipedia article on colons) state that colons are used before a list, a description, or an explanation.

"What follows the colon may or may not be a complete sentence, and it may be a mere list or even a single word."[2]

You cited "run-on sentence" in the edit summary, but a quick comparison of the original and your version of these sentence suggests that the original version is, in fact, more concise. You also have confusingly inter-mixed the list with commas and/or "and" conjunctions.

Also, it is common for a semi-colon to precede the word however.

[3] Using “however” as a conjunctive adverb: “However” can be used to join two simple sentences to make a compound sentence. “However” indicates the relationship between the two independent clauses is one of contrast or opposition. Use a semicolon before and a comma after “however” when you are using it to write a compound sentence: "The engineers claimed that the bridge was safe; however, they were still not prepared to risk crossing."

You are correct, however, that I should have put however in lowercase here.

This is mostly stylistic but I thought I would bring this to your attention given that you have a penchant for grammar :) I hope you have a great day! Humanatbest (talk) 21:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

You clearly have the time to write this paragraph, yet seemingly can't spare an extra minute to review your edits before clicking publish? From grammar and spelling mistakes within text of the photo you added, more and more MOS:CURLY violations, and a capitalization error. I'm getting tired of having to clean up these edits. I beg you, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE review your edits before publishing. Thank you and have a fantastic day :) Archives908 (talk) 22:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Armenian withdrawal per 2020 ceasefire

The lead and article go on about Azerbaijan’s violations, but from this article and related ones I can’t find any information about whether Armenian forces withdrew from Nagorno-Karabakh as agreed in the November 2020 ceasefire. If so, this should be mentioned for information. If not, Armenia would also be in violation, and this should be mentioned for NPOV.  —Michael Z. 16:27, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The lead certainly has neutrality issues, and Armenian forces remained in Karabakh after the ceasefire. They surrendered in 2023. Grandmaster 10:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Number of villages

Ecrusized, regarding this edit: [4]. Azerbaijan does not control any villages on Armenia's territory. Azerbaijan only controls Armenia's exclave of Artsvashen within Azerbaijan since 1990s, while Armenia controls 8 Azerbaijani villages (4 border villages within Azerbaijan, and 4 Azerbaijani exclaves within Armenia, including Karki, Yukhari Askipara, Bağanis Ayrum, Barxudarlı and others). Armenia says that Azerbaijan controls agricultural lands in Armenia that belong to 31 villages, but not the actual villages. This is a better source:

Azerbaijani leaders regularly accuse Armenia of occupying “eight Azerbaijani villages.” They refer to border areas, most of them enclaves inside Armenia, which were controlled by Azerbaijan in Soviet times and occupied by the Armenian army in the early 1990s.

For its part, the Azerbaijani side seized at the time a bigger Armenian enclave as well as large swathes of agricultural land belonging to this and other border communities of Armenia. It occupied more Armenian territory during border clashes in 2021 and 2022.

The Armenian government says that a total of 200 square kilometers of Armenia’s internationally recognized territory adjacent to 31 communities is now controlled by Azerbaijan. It says that it is ready, in principle, to consider swapping the formerly Azerbaijani enclaves for those lands or seek other compromise solutions. [5]

Here's another source on those border villages: [6] I believe the background to the present tensions at the border with occupied villages and territories on both sides needs to be properly explained in the lead as well. Grandmaster 10:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Grandmaster: I see, thanks for the clarification. Ecrusized (talk) 13:01, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I updated the article with the latest news about agreement on the border demarcation between Armenia and Azerbaijan, which is a positive news for the region. But the lead needs updating too, because presently it shows the border crisis as something recent, while it was going on since 1990s, when the two states became independent. Grandmaster 09:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion to Rename the Article to Armenia-Azerbaijan Border Dispute

This article was written when there was an active conflict after a specific incident and war at the border. But things seems to have changed, the crisis itself is not a crisis, I feel like crisis refers to something that happens in a limited timeframe, as the border is being demarcated, and Armenia has returned 4 villages and there is an agreement to demarcate the border based on Alma Ata Declaration, I feel like crisis is the wrong word, its not like there are emergency talks in Brussels and Washington about a full scale war or something like that. outside of sporadic crossfire(which we see on many borders around the world), things are relatively quiet.

I feel like changing the article name and restructuring the article makes sense, Call it border dispute, give the background, mention the demarcation commission, the alma ata agreement that was agreed to recently as cited by Pashinyan in returning 4 villages. And then have subsections that mention the sporadic incidents that do happen from time to time.

It doesn't make sense for a crisis to have the timeframe of 30+ years. I feel like Crisis is something more immediate like something that happens, then it dies down or is resolved. On and off things, which have some resolution and some agreements here and there, where the leaderships meet sometimes in tense situations, other times in less tense situations over the span of several years, doesn't seem like a real "crisis".

What do you guys think? Midgetman433 (talk) 15:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the name could be changed. You may start a WP:RM on the proposed name. Also, the lead needs to be rewritten. The border dispute has a long history that is not reflected in the lead. In addition, the article is bloated with irrelevant information. For example, there is a whole section on Nagorno-Karabakh conflict which is a separate issue and has its own articles. It would make sense to create a section on the border delimitation talks instead. There have already been 8 meetings of the border delimitation commissions, and some progress has been made. Grandmaster 18:42, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

"Crisis" is the accurate word given it has included the killing of hundreds of people, the September 2022 attacks, which many observers interpreted as Azerbaijan trying to split Armenia in two, the fact that multiple observers consider the crisis as Azerbaijan + Turkey trying to turn Armenia into a rump state by seizing Syunik, that multiple Armenians in border villages have fled fearing their safety, that Azerbaijan effectively split Armenia in two when it seized the north-south route, that both Russia and the EU and Iran have increased their presence on borders in Armenia to deter an Azeri invasion and give "psychological reassurance" to Armenians.Vanezi (talk) 09:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Turkey??? source??

Where has Azerbaijan "split armenia in two", can I get a source for this as well? There was a road that passed into Azerbaijan that was returned to Azeri control after 2020, but that has little to do with this article which was created during the border skirmishes that happened many months after.

They are literally doing border delimitation. And the deputy prime ministers of both countries are meeting every two weeks to work on border delimitation. They just recently announced the first section of the border delimited, for the first time since the soviet era, today.

https://www.intellinews.com/armenia-and-azerbaijan-announce-first-border-delimitation-deal-since-the-collapse-of-the-ussr-322030

Quite a few things have happened and developed since 2022, idk if you have noticed. There is no "active crisis", neither stated by the Armenian leadership, nor the Azerbaijan leadership.

If you want to split the article into something like the Armenian Azerbaijan border crisis of 2021-2022 or something like that, with the full on fighting, thats a different story, but thats not what is present in 2024. As I referenced, both sides signed a papaer agreeing to border delimitations with Alma Ata serving as a general basis recently.

Iran has not "increased its presence", Iran does not have any presence on Armenian border infact no presence outside of an embassy and a consulate in Kapan.

And since you brought up the Russian presence on the border, you should know that Armenia asked to close their outpost that was present in the north as part of the recent delimitation deal.

None of this is indicative of a crisis, the crisis was there in 2022 and it has passed.

There needs to be a Border dispute article, that covers all the developments that are taking place currently. namely the delimitation and the return of the 4 villages as part of the delimitation.

No current new source is reporting anything with regards to a crisis, if anything I have seen sources saying

"Armenia, Azerbaijan begin marking border as foes normalise ties after Nagorno-Karabakh conflict"

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/russia-central-asia/article/3260076/armenia-azerbaijan-begin-marking-border-foes-normalise-ties-after-nagorno-karabakh-conflict Midgetman433 (talk) 14:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

1) Human rights orgs stated that Azerbaijan's attacks pose an existential crisis for Armenians

• “By turning a blind eye to such atrocities [during the Nagorno-Karabakh genocide, we risk perpetuating historical injustices and potentially facing similar tragedies within other Armenian communities, like those in Syunik or Tavush”.

"Now, as anticipated in our previous publications, the threat of genocide has extended to the sovereign territory of the Republic of Armenia itself.”,

it's not a dispute about borders, it's an existential conflict for the Armenians (sovereignty)

• "Armenia. Now, Azerbaijan is claiming this region as its historical land. Azerbaijan delegitimized the Armenian historical and legal claim to Nagorno-Karabakh (Artsakh). It is now using the same tactics on Armenia proper. In recent years, the irredentist political concept of “Western Azerbaijan” has emerged, which is now turning into calculated military action.”
• "Over 7,000 civilians have been displaced, and civilian homes and local infrastructure destroyed in an attempt to ethnically cleanse Armenians from a large portion of the Republic of Armenia.”

3) the splitting up of Armenia, more sources (Foreign Affairs, there are many more sources mentioning this)

4) the issue of Azeri occupation of Armenian territory is unresolved, there continue to be articles published on this

5) the European Parliament and PACE have both encouraged Armenia to seek alternative alliances since Russia has not done anything (many sources state this) Vanezi (talk) 14:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The section on Nagorno-Karabakh conflict

This article is bloated with excessive and sometimes irrelevant information. For example, the information on Nagorno-Karabakh is duplicated from a number of articles we have on the conflict, including the ones on recent developments, such as 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Karabakh conflict is distinct from the border disputes between Armenia and Azerbaijan, and I see no point in duplicating information in multiple articles. Also, that section has NPOV issues too. Like, the title Territorial incursions into the Republic of Artsakh does not make much sense, because a country cannot make territorial incursions into its own sovereign territory. Subsection Current situation is not current all. I suggest we remove this section completely and keep the article focused on the border dispute, which is the actual topic of this article. Grandmaster 13:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)