Talk:Argentine War of Independence

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Expansion request[edit]

This article is painfully short for such an important topic; I think it could also be renamed (Independence of Argentina would cover more ground). The article does not mention San Martín's 1812 battle in San Lorenzo, Santa Fe. It should briefly explain the events of the May Revolution and all the major battles, as well as the political climate both in Argentina and in Spain. See es:Historia de Argentina#Crecimiento de la nación estado and google for it. --Pablo D. Flores 14:15, 8 August 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I have been expanding this article in the last few days. All the points above have been attended. Any suggestion is wellcome please. --furgonero 04:48, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Loyalist landing at San Lorenzo[edit]

What reliable sources support the idea that the loyalist disembarkment at San Lorenzo monastery was "an attempt to reconquer Buenos Aires"?. That action was only one in a series of plunder raids from Montevideo, intended to weakening Buenos Aires influence over Paraná river. Can anybody deal with this issue?. DagosNavy 16:14. 25 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point. But anyway, any landing of troops was suppossed to reconquer Buenos Aires and stop the revolution. Even though I 'll try to come up with a source. --furgonero 03:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No citations[edit]

Needs citations. MrTorresSaysHello (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It has some citations now, but still is largely unsourced. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:51, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Check[edit]

The article begins with: "The Argentine War of Independence was fought from 1810 to 1818 by Argentine patriotic forces under Manuel Belgrano, Juan José Castelli and José de San Martín against royalist forces loyal to the Spanish crown. On July 9, 1816, an assembly met in San Miguel de Tucumán, declared full independence with provisions for a national constitution."

The actions of 1810 to 1818 produced the United Provinces of South America, not Argentina. Argentina began with the breakup of the United Provinces into Uruguay, Southern Bolivia, Paraguay, Republic of Buenos Aires and the Argentine Confederation. Sure, the 1853 Constitution of Argentina declares that Argentina is the successor of the UNited Provinces but this is politics, not history. Come on, lets make an encyclopedia, not a nationalist epic. Even the Name of Argentina was not used until 1826!86.4.27.128 (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion will be held at User talk:86.4.27.128#Argentina, as this topic was raised by this user at several pages at once. Cambalachero (talk) 19:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is best talked about here:

Discussion of NPOV[edit]

The article begins with:

"The Argentine War of Independence was fought from 1810 to 1818 by Argentine patriotic forces under Manuel Belgrano, Juan José Castelli and José de San Martín against royalist forces loyal to the Spanish crown. On July 9, 1816, an assembly met in San Miguel de Tucumán, declared full independence with provisions for a national constitution."

So the ordinary reader has a picture of the geographical Argentina of today being created in 1818. But the United Provinces of South America was created and this has a very different location from modern Argentina. It could be argued that a nation is entirely political, not geographical, but I would say this is a non-neutral point of view. A nation is also the place where a people live and this needs to be located clearly in your story.

Later in the article on the Argentine War of Independence it mentions the United Provinces once in the text but does not explain what these are or what territory they occupied. Reading the article I would be convinced that Argentina, a state occupying the geographical extent of the modern country, was born when the United Provinces were created. When I turn to the Federal Pact article it appears that the Argentine Confederation was created in 1832 and the Name of Argentina was only used from 1826 onwards.

Surely the article on Argentine Independence needs to be amended to tell me about the geographical extent of the various states and their relationship to each other. What would you suggest as new text?

Please do not reply with "you are an idiot, you do not understand". My whole point is that any reader coming to this page could not possibly understand given the information provided. Without further explanation it looks like a POV is being put across. 86.4.27.128 (talk) 15:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very well, I'm tired of this, so I won't try to explain things anymore. Do you challenge the United Provinces being a predecesor state of Argentina? Point a Reliable source, a history book by some reputed historian, that backs those ideas you are proposing, or the discussion will end right here and now. Cambalachero (talk) 16:07, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why not start with the first point?

"The Argentine War of Independence was fought from 1810 to 1818 by Argentine patriotic forces under Manuel Belgrano, Juan José Castelli and José de San Martín against royalist forces loyal to the Spanish crown. On July 9, 1816, an assembly met in San Miguel de Tucumán, declared full independence with provisions for a national constitution."

The sentence suggests that there was an "Argentina" before it had been declared. Argentine patriotic forces are "colonial rebels" the US is proud to use such terms. It also misses out a description of the extent of Argentina in 1816 or 1818. Where was it?

It does not mention that the United Provinces of South America were declared as an independent state, not "Argentina". This should be mentioned and the geographical location of the state described. We must then either describe the direct relationship of this entity to Argentina or trace the route through the renaming of UP to the UP of River Plate and then to the Argentine Confederation. If there is a direct relationship we should describe the nature of this relationship, if the relationship is indirect, say due to the formation of a Federal Pact that then replaced the United Provinces with the Argentine Confederation this should be described. We cannot just state that these entities are Argentine and have always been Argentine without explanation. We do need continuity in the explanation however, the Romans declared themselves to be Trojans but that did not make it so. 86.4.27.128 (talk) 16:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Eastern Province[edit]

Great article, but I wanted to point out that the article lacks a section on the military actions on the littoral and the Banda Oriental, from the Battle of Las Piedras and the royalist raids over the Uruguay and Paraná rivers, to the siege and fall of Montevideo and the feats of Admiral William Brown. Salut!

Ok, there are mentions to all of this, but under the heading "Campaigns of San Martín". Somehow it has to be fixed, I think. Salut! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.117.89.163 (talk) 22:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]