Talk:Ares/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Puppy sacrifice?

"and where youths each sacrificed a puppy to Enyalios before engaging in the all-out ritual fighting at the Phoebaeum" Really? 99.65.12.194 (talk) 22:11, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, really. Read the footnote. Look up Pausanias, whom you've never heard of. Log in, and pull yourself together.--Wetman (talk) 10:52, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Impressively condescending! Well done, hopefully that user will never contribute to wikipedia again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.196.184.35 (talk) 10:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Indeed, the fact wetman is an ambassador and that this non controvisal article is locked gives more credence to the argument that Wikipedia is a joke operating under a false guise of egalitarianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.86.13 (talk) 18:06, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Symbol of Ares is a bloody spear not a quadriga or what ever its called —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.189.208 (talk) 03:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Ares caught

[[File:ares was caught with athrodite by her husband hephaestus, god of metal and smith, who caught them in a net and called all of olympus to scorn and laugh at them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.194.102.77 (talk) 23:10, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Yes.... your point? Hermes13 (talk) 15:14, 25 April 2010 (UTC) Hermes13]][[File:Example.jpg--Aresofwar (talk) 07:49, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Italic text]]

Keen birds?

The article contained the following sentence:

His keen and sacred birds were the woodpecker, the eagle owl and, especially in the south, the vulture.

The wikilink leads to a disambiguation page that contains mainly proper names and no link to an article that would explain the usage of the word in this context. Neither google nor my dictionaries turned up anything helpful either, so I reduced it to just "sacred birds".—Graf Bobby (talk) 11:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I also wonder whether the woodpecker is ever identified in a Greek source as the bird of Ares; this seems to be an Italic tradition pertaining to Mars (see Mars (mythology)#Sacred animals). Cynwolfe (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Birth

This source claims that Ares was born of Hera; in fact, the source cited is Ovid's Fasti, in reference to the Roman god Mars, and it isn't entirely clear that Ovid didn't just make it up. It can't be assumed that everything true of Mars is also true of Ares. I've seen this repeated elsewhere, but Hesiod states in the Theogony that Ares is the only son of Zeus and Hera. Mythology handbooks (and evidently some scholars) are often quite sloppy in distinguishing between Greek gods and their Roman counterparts. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I corrected this. Not sure how to handle the existence of scholarly sources that make plain factual errors. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

If it is a genuinely reputable source, note what it said in the footnore, and why it's wrong; it may save some reader a headache. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Silhouetted Canope Villa Adriana image

The image associated with this Ares page has undergone several revisions: desaturation, yellow tint removal, now there is a silhouetted version which I think comes across as much more striking in addition to not having a distracting background. Any thoughts? Link: File:Ares Canope Villa Adriana b.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noh Chung (talk • contribs) 20:52, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

I prefer the full-length image without a background. If the background contributed to an understanding of the iconography or significance of Ares, it would be useful; otherwise, to me it's just visually distracting. I don't see the point of a cropped image, if the purpose is to represent the iconography of Ares. The full-length version shows his shield, and the drilled right hand where a wooden spear would've been inserted. For those interested in working toward a consensus on which image to use, let me post a gallery here to show what Noh Chung's referring to. I don't feel strongly that this sculpture is the best top illustration for the article; my opinion is that of the versions, the full-length, dropped-background is strongest. Cynwolfe (talk) 13:52, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Great work Cynwolfe I am in complete agreement with you. I also much prefer the full-length image without a background (titled "Ares Canope Villa Adriana b.jpg"). This was the image here for several months but then someone reverted back to the full length version with a washed out tacky distracting background. Rather than use that old full length version, and rather than offend whomever reverted back to it, I just thought the cropped version. By far in my opinion the most striking, engaging image is the silhouetted full length version.Noh Chung (talk) 01:16, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

• 
• 
• 

Etymology

The article omits the best, and certainly most likely origin of the word. Hebrew ariz, terrible one. Dr.P.

Odd claims

• The text asserts that the Athenian temple of Ares is essentially a Roman temple of Mars because it was Augustan in date. (By the same logic, Zeus Olympius is Jupiter; that temple was not only finished under Hadrian, he paid for it.)
• Again the text claims that the Areopagus (Areios pagos) is the Hill of Ares is merely etiological myth; if so, the Oxford Classical Dictionary falls for it.

Neither is impossible; but both require sources. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:41, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

A few weeks ago I requested citations for the claims that Ares represents "righteous indignation" and "integrity." My {{cn}} in both cases has been deleted without explanation, but I don't see the word "integrity" anywhere else in the article. "Righteous indignation" is perhaps based on the Homeric Hymn's invocatory "leader of righteous men" — but why does the intro say both? Ares as an embodiment of all these virtues is contrary to the impression one gets from the ancient Greek sources themselves, or certainly Homer and the lyric poets, and is not supported by the article. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:10, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Another confusion with Mars Pater, assisted by the Hymn? Mars might well deliver justice; does Ares, outside Heraclitus? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:18, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

• This edit, with the in-text comment, demonstrates that the reversal was by a good soul who thinks Mars is Ares. Removing the claims, and adding that Mars and Ares are connected by interpretatio romana (only), seems justified. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:22, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
• The Greek for "righteous" is dikaiotatos; this is not necessarily equivalent if the Hymn is genuine and therefore early. But if Allen is right, and it is a late Orphic work, the translation of tyrannos as "governor", even "severe governor", is misleading. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The mention of the woodpecker appears to derive from Dionysius of Halicarnassus; he is again talking about Mars, using interpretatio graeca. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:19, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

The context in D. of H. is so specifically Italic that I'm not sure it even reaches the level of interpretatio: more like mere translation of the name. I do think these things are worth sorting out, so thank you. Cynwolfe (talk) 01:42, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Mistakes

Why are there so many mistakes? Well, not any more. I fixed most all of them that I can see.

--KF5LLG (talk) 00:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Really? I only saw one supposed typo you fixed, which was the transliteration Olympos instead of the anglicized Olympus, but that was in a direct quotation. I'm not sure what to do about the inconsistency that results when a source that's directly quoted transliterates a Greek word one way, and the body text goes with the most common English spelling. (Started to say that in my editing summary and accidentally hit save before I finished explaining). Cynwolfe (talk) 00:55, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

TO BE ADDED TO UNPROTECTED ARTICLE ARES

hello i was told that i could not edit this which just pisses me off... any way someone with a higher rank should add what i am about to say

Children: Anteros, Deimos, Enyalios, Eros, Harmonia, Nike, Phobos, Areopos, Alkippe, Amazones, Antiope, Askalaphos, Diomedes, Dryas, Euenos, Hippolyte, Ialmenos, Kyknos, Likymnios, Lykastos, Lykos, Melanippos, Meleagros, Molos, Nisos,Oiagros, Oinomaus, Oxylos, Parrhasios, Parthenopaios, Penthesileia, Phlegyas, Porthaon, Pylos, Remus, Romulus, Tereus, Thestios, Thrassa, Drakon Ismenian.

Ares had 40 children.

Anteros, Deimos, Enyalios, Eros, Harmonia, Nike, and Phobos were divine
Areopos, Alkippe, Amazones, Antiope, Askalaphos, Diomedes, Dryas, Euenos, Hippolyte, Ialmenos, Kyknos, Likymnios, Lykastos, Lykos, Melanippos, Meleagros, Molos, Nisos, Oiagros, Oinomaus, Oxylos, Parrhasios, Parthenopaios, Penthesileia, Phlegyas, Porthaon, Pylos, Remus, Romulus, Tereus, Thestios, and Thrassa were mortal
Drakon Ismenian is a beats

(ref: Greeks: A Great Adventure, College Study at Berry College in Gorgia) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tom Redwood (talk • contribs) 23:26, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2014

f One of Ares symbols is a sword. I believe that it should be listed as one of his atrebutes. It is listed as one of Mars' symbols so it should be listed as one of Ares symbols also. 24.30.77.201 (talk) 18:17, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Please note: while the Roman pantheon is based on the earlier Greek one, their respective deities are only roughly equivalent, not identical. You may be right, however, and I think it should be added if you provide a good source. Rivertorch (talk) 06:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 February 2014

The section reading "Fear (Phobos) and Terror (Deimos) were yoked to his battle chariot.[4]" should read "His sons Fear (Phobos) and Terror (Deimos) and his sister Discord (Enyo) accompanied him on his war chariot." As written, it sounds like deimos and phobos are his horses, not his sons, and it ignores Enyo entirely. 82.40.44.97 (talk) 01:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done but added that Discord might have been his lover, and/or his sister. Arjayay (talk) 18:55, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

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Comments

This article is not bad nor great. It's informative but it could be improved. I made a few improvements and I have a few comments.

1. "Vatican, Rome, Italy. Statue of Ares, Scopas's influence. Brooklyn Museum Archives, Goodyear Archival Collection".

There is no such thing as "Vatican, Rome". The Vatican is an independent country. It's an enclave of Rome. The two are different things and the caption needs to be fixed.

2. "Other versions include Alcippe as one of his daughters.

Upon one occasion, Ares incurred the anger of Poseidon by slaying his son, Halirrhothius, because he had raped Alcippe, a daughter of the war-god."

Alcippe is mentioned twice. I think it would make more sense to remove the redundancy by eliminating the first occurrence.

3. At a minimum, the "Hymns to Ares" should be introduced with a sentence.

4. "This was an extension of NASA's practice of using Roman and Greek names for their rockets and programs: Saturn for manned rockets, Mercury for a satellite program, and the Apollo program, rather than any association with the nature of the war god."

The last part of the sentence implies something I do not understand.

ICE77 (talk) 07:21, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Link missing

why is there no link between ares and any charachter from abrahamic faith — Preceding unsigned comment added by C,s, roberts (talk • contribs) 02:23, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Who persuaded Ares to fight for the Trojans?

I added a [citation needed] to the section about the Iliad (link). The edit was reverted by WQUlrich, who wisely suggested that it should be a topic for the talk page. So, my question is: Where in the Iliad does Aphrodite persuade Ares to fight for the Trojans? Isn't it actually Apollo who convinces Ares to return to the battle on the side of the Trojans (after Diomedes wounds Aphrodite)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.96.240.163 (talk) 06:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 June 2021

Ares symbols include venemous snakes ( drakons). Not Boars. 65.94.86.24 (talk) 18:31, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Not done; please provide reliable sources showing that boars are not his symbol and that snakes are; happy days, Lindsay^Hello 19:13, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Spartans viewing Ares as a model soldier with the Peloponnesian War as reference.

Under the section: Ares in Sparta.

With Ares being viewed as a model soldier when no wikipedia linked article, nor reference provided, with the wikipedia links having no reference to Ares in both the linked "Sparta", and "Peloponnesian War" article. In fact, the wikipedia article for Sparta, has Spartans, with Spartan women worshipping cults of Helen and Artemis.

This is breaching the basic academic tenets for academic integrity. Please make the change, or there will be investigations made to this blatant erroneous error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faust-Leaguer (talk • contribs) 02:53, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Faust-Leaguer, it's not clear what kind of edit you are looking for here, so i'm not doing any. As far as i can tell, you are complaining that Sparta is wikilinked in this article, but the Sparta article doesn't mention Ares, is that correct? If so, then i suggest you add an improvement to Sparta, or come up with some evidence that we are incorrect to say that Ares was held in high regard in Sparta. At any rate, whatever your concern, your final sentence is very poor, threats are extremely unlikely to move any of us to action, and you may end up blocked for making such threats (see here for an explanation). If i can help in any way, please reply here and i will see it (as will many other helpful members of the community); happy days, Lindsay^Hello 17:00, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Linda:

There's NO EVIDENCE, in the wikipedia articles linked, regarding Sparta viewing Ares in high regards, as the sentence stated. Please remove this sentence, or replace with an appropriate sentence. I'm afraid this is not a threat, if it is a threat, you can report this account to the FBI for further investigation. Monash University in Australia have been severely punished because of plagiarism, with scholarship in Academica can only be referenced via peer review. This section in the article, as a topic of contention, breaches what the scholarship as what would be hard evidence in Academia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.15.226.132 (talk) 06:04, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Though talk of the FBI, Monash University and so on is irrelevant, it's true that there's no evidence presented for any of the article's claims about the standing of Ares at Sparta - that he was viewed as a model soldier, or highly regard for his military intelligence, or especially worshipped in Sparta, or that said worship distinguished Sparta from elsewhere, or the rest. It shouldn't be hard to find, you'd think, but all we have is some WP:OR that a statue in another god's temple of Ares in chains indicates he was held in high regard. The existence of the statue is the one verifiable aspect, as it's recorded by Pausanias centuries after Sparta was a military power, but even as WP:OR, the conclusion drawn is poor; there were notable statues of Ares elsewhere though as the OCD puts it, "what we know ... confirms his marginality." Though absence of evidence is not proof of absence, we would still expect to find mention of Ares's prominence in, say, Paul Cartledge's Sparta and Lakonia, but it's not there. This looks all too much like a modern syllogism: the Spartans were warlike, Ares was the god of war, the Spartans viewed Ares as a model. There are so many gaps in that.

Online searches for this material will return many examples of the current text or its predecessors. It was first added by an IP editor in December 2010 (with one intervening copy-edit by another editor), with no sources or edit summaries. Since then it's been copied into clones of Wikipedia, blogs, Pinterest captions, ebay descriptions and much else. NebY (talk) 17:10, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

There is indeed very, very little of any scholarly quality to be found. However, there's this, found on Google scholar, under the rather dodgy aegis of academia.org; Jennifer Larson, Ancient Greek cults: a guide, Routlege Taylor & Francis, New York & London, 2007, pp. 156-157. The author is professor of Classics at Kent State University. This isn't an article I'd planned on editing; and Larson seems to be it as far as recent published work on Ares is concerned. According to the source, worship of Ares was mostly confined to central Greece and the Peloponese, but nothing special to be said regarding Sparta, except that the chained statue was also associated with Enyalios, who was increasingly syncretised with Ares as time passed. Oaths were sworn in Ares' name, along with other deities. The literary and artistic (Homeric, I guess) uses of the Ares-Athena relationship seems much more significant. I'm not sure the current article structure helps. It sets up expectations of regional and cultural significance that can't be met or, for that matter, disposed of. What price negative evidence, eh? Sorry not to give a proper url or ISBN, but I'm not even sure the academia download is permissible. Haploidavey (talk) 20:14, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Interesting! Yes, linking to Larson at academia.org would breach WP:COPYLINK and it doesn't support an of the particular claims about Spartan regard for Ares's military intelligence etc., says Ares enjoyed only a limited worship, and brings out that far from Spartan admiration exemplifying the divide between Spartans and Athenians, we have if anything more evidence for his cult in Athens. This section on Sparta doesn't seem to include anything reliable that's not elsewhere in the article and after your review, I'm inclined to remove it very soon. You're right, the article structure is a bit awkward; the Scythian section based on a reading of Herodotus and the 1911 Britannica seems a bit insubstantial, but those remaining three sections would at least come under a heading such as Cult outside Greece. NebY (talk) 03:31, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

If you think this one's a bit of a mess, just take a look at Tylos and History of Bahrain - in particular, the sources. Or you could have a nice day instead. Haploidavey (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Have traced the addition of the material on Tylos and the Arabian peninsula back to this and adjacent versions, including a long abandoned, weird little "scholarly argument" between claimed sources, which only good faith prevents me from describing as "faked up". As far as I can tell, Heeren (1854) gives no support to the presence of Ares in Tylos or the Arabian peninsula; have been through the book several times now, virtual cover to virtual cover, I could have missed something, I s'pose. Of course, the search facility does not discriminate between "ares" and "are s" and any other permutations. Someone want to check? The Arabic-language contributions (same contributor) give no publication details at all, just titles, authors and page numbers. I had a bit of an argument, years ago, with the editor concerned, who insisted on adding this stuff, then proved evasive when asked for useful and evidential details - like publishers and author credentials. I'm inclined to remove the whole sorry business. How deperate can we be, searching through something published not far off 200 years back, and for such a wee morsel of uncertainty?? Anyhow, here's a link to Heeren's 1854 English-language version; [2] It's much clearer than the archive.org. version. Haploidavey (talk) 10:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

This might be useful [3] Apparently Palmyra had a shrine to Athena, paired with Ares (now missing but probably a close similarity to our article's main image). Haploidavey (talk) 11:23, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

For Ares in the Arabian peninsula, and Ares in Tylos, I went through volume 2 of Heeren (same publishers throughout) and it's not there either. Haploidavey (talk) 08:51, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding Ares and the Suda: firstly, why are we citing primary sources? and secondly, the Suda's identification has not been supported by mainstream scholarship for many years. The Nabatean deity is Dushara (more equivalent to Zeus, or perhaps Dionysus; see Wenning, various publications, including this very useful PDF. So I'm removing the Suda's claim. Haploidavey (talk) 09:48, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Nice work, way ahead of me - I'm clearly too hesitant. (Overuse of ancient sources as if secondary is such a problem on en.wiki.) I've restructured a little but there's more to do, with so much material in the lead that isn't in the body. NebY (talk) 19:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I wouldn't say that (about) hesitancy. I think you're being suitably bold. I just found a nice statement from a respected numismatist, putting the case unequivocally though I might not have placed it in optimal position. A bit OR of me, but it's looking more and more like everyone who has said anything about Ares and Sparta having character traits in common has not been a Spartan; Ares' absence from Spartan coinage says quite a lot; though of course, we can't say that it does). Haploidavey (talk) 08:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

And now I can't find a reliable source for even the mere existence of a "second temple" to Ares - at Metropolis (in Anatolia), let alone archaeological proofs or images, and not one mention in any online scholarly source. I mean, nothing at all. Just some "round robin" claims, none of them amounting to anything at all, let alone confirmation. I'm willing to bet that this Wikipedia article has had a hand in what could amount to rumour-mongering. Ares is beginning to seem truly insubstantial. What Pandora's box have we opened?! Haploidavey (talk) 11:40, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Found something (s) and almost wish I hadn't. It's all heavyweight stuff, and a lot of it's beyond my digestive capacity, but I guess a lot of it's inconclusive. If it is, I think we shouldn't use it. Here's one: [[PDF] Matthew Gonzalez, The oracle and cult of Ares in Asia Minor [4] The other is in Turkish, which I can't read. Nor can I find an independent peer review. [5] I'm just wondering why, if it's academically sound, it didn't seem to make waves in academia. It seems well-sourced, and the team who produced it seem to be university-qualified, though some of the sources are various articles in Wikipedia. Opinions, please?I mean, it's one thing to state that Ares seems to have been a leading deity of the city or region, but quite another to publicise a site as Ares' "second temple". Haploidavey (talk) 12:53, 4 August 2021 (UTC) Sorted out!

Metropolis (Anatolia) temple in sources, coinage (his image in combination), priests and priestesses (epigraphy) plus local syncretism. Phew. [[PDF] Matthew Gonzalez, The oracle and cult of Ares in Asia Minor [6]. Also others (see article sources). Haploidavey (talk) 16:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Fragment of Apollodorus

Can anyone source the following? It's supposedly a fragment of Apollodorus (I don't know which Apollodorus, I'm just presuming its a broken line from the Biblioteca) confirming that Spartans used to sacrifice prisoners of war to Ares. So there's quite a bit that stands or falls on it.

Apollodorus, frag. p.1056 ed. Heyne

Google came up with 6 or so examples of the same citation, with no more detail than that, the earliest being dated 1803, when Christian Gottlob Heyne was active and getting published; but am none the wiser, partly because I've no idea of the context (whether this is an observation based on literary or historical or mythological ground, nor how reliable the translation/reconstruction is. That calls for a good secondary source, methinks Haploidavey (talk) 18:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorted, amazingly fast and with true scholarship; see G & R talk. Thank you, P Aculeius! Haploidavey (talk) 06:56, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to leave a link here to the relevant section at the G & R project; it seems very likely (human convictions being what they are) that at some point someone will want to re-instate as historically proven some of the sources and assertions regarding Spartan cults to Ares. Be nice to have arguments to hand when that happens. Haploidavey (talk) 05:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Good thinking. This permalink should still work after the thread's archived.

As a minor footnote, I compared Britannicas and now suspect that copy-editing for brevity (and/or some misreadings feeding back) may have changed the 11th edition's

"In Scythia an old iron sword served as the symbol of the god, to which yearly sacrifices of cattle and horses were made, and in earlier times (as apparently also at Sparta) human victims, selected from prisoners of war, were offered."

(in which "(as apparently also at Sparta)" applied to human victims rather than prisoners of war, the latter being based on Herodotus's account of the Scythians) to the current online

"At Sparta, in early times, at least, human sacrifices were made to him from among the prisoners of war." NebY (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that "in early times, at least" is somebody's attempt to sort out an uncertainty that's actually an impossible muddle. I mean, it's a forced guess - a need to grab onto any source that's going. Apollodorus is/was, at best, repeating a bit of traditional history; who knows whence? Sure as hell he was no more a witness than Porphyry, and does anyone really trust Herodotus? The whole human sacrifice thing thing could have gone through who-knows-how-many pick-'n-mix steps. The secondary source covers that rather well. Are you OK with the Apollodorus material as it stands? More or less? Btw, I was looking through the intro again, and noticed once again that it's almost all mythology and lit. We could shift virtually the whole section down into main body, wholesale. It's already very well sourced! Haploidavey (talk) 15:46, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The trap the EB folks fall into is a rather heavy-handed, functionality-based approach to interpretatio graeca, foisted on a set of claimed eye-witness accounts. I doubt very much if any could be called authentic. Humph. Hardly any of the geographers-cum-ethnologists actually went there to see for themselves. And the more I look at it, the more offhand seems the way Porphyry deals with it. Haploidavey (talk) 15:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

It is offhand, isn't it? And so likely to be a reference to Apollodorus' myth/prehistory work (i suppose we must trust that it's Apollodorus of Athens he means, and not pseudo-Apollodorus or another one - better not go down that rabbit-hole too). A muddle indeed, but I'm rather pleased to see how we're (well, you're) navigating it. I've tried a reshuffle of the first two paragraphs in "Worship, cult and ritual" (are you happy with that title? it was a hasty placeholder) - see what you think. I've tried to shape it to suit a reader arriving cold, rather than open with our recent concerns and corrections. Some of the wikilinking may not be on first use any more, but I tried to keep the citations proporly attached.

I gathered at the time of the British Museum's Scythians exhibition that Herodotus had been somewhat rehabilitated, rather surprisingly, but perhaps not actually trusted. (Personally, I do want to carry on trusting him that the Phoenecians circumnavigated Africa, simply because of his disbelief.)

Yes, a lot of the lead belongs in the body, as usual for Wikipedia, and a new lead could be written that would actually be a summary. It's always a warning flag when the lead has references but yes, that does at least mean the material's ready to be moved. NebY (talk) 21:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That's very nicely done; I read it as if cold, and as far as I can see, it de-emphasises the significance of the uncertainties. In other words, puts them in proportion (as in "what we don't know need not detain us"). For some reason, the lead seems to read better now, though you've not touched it. My immediate feeling on the section title is to standardise it as "Cult and ritual" (per other articles in the G & R series) but then recalled various conversation in which "Cult" was disliked, even as a technical term because of its unfortunate modern conotations. Those don't bother me in the least (Cult, religion, whatever, as long as it's even-handed - that is, unfair to everyone equally).

I missed the Scythians exhibition, but I gather it was pretty damn good, full of joined-up curating and surprises for those unfamiliar (like me) with the culture. Perhaps Herodotus would have been happy with it - no longer quite the Father of Lies, more like Everyone's Favourite Uncle of Half-Truths, Factoids and Spifffing Yarns. Perhaps we could insert a modern secondary source evaluation of his work? Some kind of caveat, anyway. Haploidavey (talk) 05:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, cult can be misunderstood these days, which i tried to manage by putting it between worship and ritual. I've tried a little more reshuffling of your sentences to bring the bound statues together - I am in awe of you finding that, it makes such a difference - rather than separate the examples with Jessop Price. Placed at the end, he seems less of a digression and more bringing us back to Sparta - to me, anyway.

That was when i read the sentence I'd missed, "Cults to Ares may have been more common than some sources have asserted" which suggests I was wrong to remove "Burkert states that". Glancing at Gonzalez's title "The Oracle and Cult of Ares in Asia Minor" I thought maybe I could rescue myself with "Cults to Ares in Asia Minor may have been more common" but I fear you're going to tell me Gonzalez was being more general and we do need "Burkert states" or similar. (If it's any use, the OCD has "Cults of Ares are rare ... Temples are known chiefly from Crete ... and the Peloponnese, but also from Athens and Erythrae", but that may be from Burkert, one of Fritz Graf's five attributed sources.)

I've also tried a shuffle of sections which might open a path for bringing material from the current lead.

The BM Scythians exhibition wasn't one of their most satisfying for me; much showing of gold from graves, which after noting their particular interest in certain animals, stopped telling us very much, and small items don't work so well in crowded big-ticket exhibitions. Can't really blame the Scythians though, it was good of them to leave as much as they did and the curators did, as you say, work to create a joined up view of an entire culture. One surprise for me was how long Russian archaeologists have been studying the sites. NebY (talk) 22:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi NebY, it's moving along quite nicely. Just as you guessed, we need Burkert's name, even if only to supply a very specific non-numeric comparator for Gonzalez' statement about (yes!) the relative amount (number not given, of course) of cults and sites to Ares on the mainland. I was very chuffed to happen across the Gonzalez work; all of a sudden, things fitted together. Now for the Big Thing.... do you have, or can your get hold of, a copy of Burkert's Greek Religion? We've come very close to unstuck here by good-naturedly following what has been here for yonks. I can't find anything readable, even in very limited sample-google-books fashion, anywhere at all. It's all very well our saying Ares' cults are rare, but just what does that mean? How rare is rare? Or rarer than what? (Which is where I thought the clear implication (?) "more commonplace than Burkert [or any other scholar whose name has appeared in main-space) suggests" might be useful. Thanks for the compliment, btw, though I have to be honest and admit that it more or less randomly fell on my lap. Haploidavey (talk) 18:31, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

And yes, the OCD and related publications rely in part (I suspect that's a large part) on Burkert; I still can't find page verification. Interesting what you say about Russian research, which I remember being hugely, very generously funded by the Soviets back in the day, but rather isolated by the unwillingness of foreign nationals to deal with the Russian language and culture. Modern equivalents seem to ne funded by businesses on the verge of tyrannising the scholarly process for political reasons that include gross nationalism. Some of them are virtually princely states. But that's not what I really wanted to say: viz., have you read Romm, James S., The Edges of the Earth in Ancient Thought: Geography, Exploration, and Fiction, Princeton University Press, 1994. ISBN 978-0-691-03788-2 All about geographically and culturally remote extremities, the idea of the foreign and the heartland and the strange, and how it serves all our cultures. I think something of that informs this article. Haploidavey (talk) 19:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Quick note: I found a cheap copy of Burkert, should arrive next week. I wasn't trying to delete the material on Mars, just move it to a new section "Ares and Mars" and leave a short sentence for now as the foundation for something not much longer in the lead, preparatory to moving other lead material into the body too, them we can write a true introductory/summarising lead. Would you be happy with moving your improvements re Mars to the Ares and Mars section too? NebY (talk) 10:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I thought that might be what you were doing (transferring material). I don't at all mind bold and positive editing. You seem to have a plan, so I'll just keep adding stuff (as and when and if it turns up) and look forward to Burkert. Well done on that! I have a reasonable Religions personal library, but its all Roman (and not even "all"). Haploidavey (talk) 11:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I've got a bit furher with moving material to the body, leaving summaries. I hope I haven't lost anything. It's not so much a plan as an attitude, with unexpected results - we suddenly have a section under Mythology on his birth, which somebody might like to expand one day.

Thanks for the Romm tip, that looks very interesting and prompts memories of sociological studies of deviance as defining societies. You're reminding me too of other aspects of the BM exhibition: the vast amount of gold from the Hermitage first collected by Peter the Great, and the 20th-century archaeologist who made Scythia his life's work, sometimes supported, sometimes abandoned or driven away, but returning and persisting. NebY (talk) 17:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

It's a bit hair-raising, the unexpected complexity of some ... well, most... of the material. It can be locked together in so many ways, to make so may different kinds of sense. Or none at all. There are so many shadowy possibilities. Yes, let's do justice to whatever we have on his birth, seriously. I'll raise a nice glass of red to persistence in spite of all. I really like what you've done. Haploidavey (talk) 18:03, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, all that complexity from a rightly harsh comment about "regarding Sparta viewing Ares in high regards", but so much scrutiny and such fine discoveries along the way - chained statues and oracles! Slightly odd to be editing it on a day a (nominally?) classicist PM addressed parliament about a fierce war. Well. I've feel I've trimmed the lead to about the size and density I had in mind, though it bears reviewing to see if it's really hitting the current article's main points. Your breaking "Worship, cult and ritual" into sections works very well, emerging from the material rather than constraining it as the regional headings had begun to do. It's all becoming much clearer. NebY (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Burkert arrived, so of course I've gone straight to the cited pages 169-170 and the index (bad practice, I know). "Ares was worshipped with a temple cult in only a very few places", with a note "Near Troezen Paus. 2.32.9; Geronthrai Paus. 3.22.6; Halikarnassos Vitr. 2.8.11; for Ares and Aphrodite see (takes us to joint temples). A priest in Erythrai, IE 201 a 3. Theritas at Sparta is rather Enyalios, cf Hsch. s.v. Theritas." I can look at adding a bit about the joint temples, but I'm a little disappointed - no modern research cited, no archaeology,. Elsewhere he strongly identifies Enyalios with Ares. He does write of "fettered images of gods, especially Artemis, Dionysos and Ares; they await the abandoned and perilous unchaining in the festival of licence, which must then lead back to the established order." The OCD listing of 6 Peloponnesian temples plus Athens and Erythrae must have another basis. NebY (talk) 16:30, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh good. Does he write well? It looks like he supports a fair bit of what we have - yes, it's amazing how little remains of what might have been pertinent remains - or at least remnants that might point the way to further connections... OK then, guesses. I think some of the cited authors also rely on Burkert; and I don't think we need more than that, in terms of scholarly support for anything we've done so far. Pretty much watertight, in terms of sources. You're dead right about needing something on Ares-with Aphrodite (joint temples) and the presence of several deities alongside A (or he alongside others. And there's a cult or a festival of Ares and women (in Pausanias) and one of Ares-excluding women, each one plus attendant mythologies or at least aeteological tales (non-canonical, I guess, and cf also Pausanias). Odd and interesting stuff. Incidentally, yesterday I was totally blocked (by an admin/clerk's procedural error) from Wikipedia worldwide and Commons. Horrible feeeling! 16:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC) PS: perhaps we could place a list (for illutrative purposes) in notes, giving such as Burkert actually names, with no claim (QED!) that it's exhaustive. I reckon an awful lot has been lost. Haploidavey (talk) 16:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

I can't say he writes well yet, I'm still only filleting for details (joint temples later), then it goes on the to-read stack. Useful admin/clerk error, that - it's important to have "dry" days without Wikipedia! NebY (talk) 14:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I don't have enough of those, and it shows. I was crowding you, unintentionally - just had a sort-of suspended panic/doubt regarding Scythians of Herodotus' time and his allegations of 1/100 POW sacrifice. Couldn't find it in his Scythians section. Anyhoo...Haploidavey (talk) 14:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

No worries. The one-in-a-hundred is in Herodotus IV 62 - but you'll have found that by now. NebY (talk) 14:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Indeed I have! And have clarified who these people were, with reference to secondary source. Haploidavey (talk) 15:10, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

"ethnically Thracian subjects of Scythian rulers in Anatolia" is really startling! Is that a mainstream view now? It's difficult to square Anatolia with Herodotus having just clearly described that flow into the northern Black Sea. Currently, we're not directly connecting a source to the claim; we have only Sulimirski six sentences later. NebY (talk) 16:07, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Bear with me, I'll treble-check . OTTOMH, there were many enclaves of Thracians (and Gauls) in Greater Anatolia, Lydia and whatnot, some of them semi-independednt, most of them not. . The Scythian warrior-mounted aristocracy were politically and militarily dominant in Anatolia, and right into the northern plains. Now let's just see if I got that right-ish Haploidavey (talk) 16:13, 26 August 2021 (UTC) Yes, that's a pretty accurate reflection of pp 157-159 of Sulimirski, who supports most of the para (reasonably searchable at Google scholar); he says that would certainly be the case in early period of Scythian, semi-settled society, less so in mid period and definitely not in late period: but then, Herodotus is pretty squarely early-mid; and so is plausible, in his own inimitable fashion.Haploidavey (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I can't bring the pages up in Google Scholar, alas. Is he really saying that when Herodotus is explicitly writing about a people living on and beyond the north coast of the Black Sea, he's really writing about people living on or south of the south coast of the Black Sea? For a Wikipedia reader who knows a bit of Herodotus and a bit about the Scythians since, this is going to look like a mistake that needs correcting unless it's clearly cited to authoritative source(s). NebY (talk) 16:41, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Damn. It's part of the Cambridge History of Iran (C.U.P). Pretty authoritative, and would have had any number of scholarly readings before publication. I'm not so surprised at the geographical spread; the Scythians held their neighbours in subjection at various times, and occupied some pretty vast areas. It's small potatoes compared to the Huns. Wish I could get a snapshot of the relevant pages, but I don't know how to. Haploidavey (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Have taken it out; if another source crops up that says the same thing, we can reinstate it. Haploidavey (talk) 17:37, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that's for the best. The Cambridge History of Iran's pretty authoritative indeed but that translocation of Herodotus's account to Anatolia spooks me. Thanks for trimming the gory details too - I know WP:NOTCENSORED but as they say, that turned dark awfully fast. NebY (talk) 17:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Kept thinking about this. Is it possible that in writing about the Scythians in Anatolia, Assyria, etc about 150 years before Herodotus' time, Sulimirski considers Herodotus' description of Scythian culture because it's more detailed than anything else, arguably still applicable and conceivably based partly on Herodotus' gleanings from Anatolian or even Median oral history and records? But that OTOH Sulimirski implicitly accepts that as Herodotus knows a persuasive amount about the geography of the northern coastal region of the Black Sea and its hinterland, and presents his account as being of those Scythians in the context of Darius' expedition against them at a time when there was no Scythian presence in Anatolia that threatened Darius, therefore Herodotus is consciously writing about south Russian Scythians? And on the third hand, that Sulimirski detects Thracian elements in Herodotus' account and reasons that this is not so much cultural transfer as evidence of one people being ruled by another? The next step might be to argue that if there were more Thracians in Anatolia in the 7th century than in Scythia in the 5th, the Thracian element shows Herodotus was drawing more on Anatolian history than contemporary Scythia, which would be a bold step if Sulimirski's and reckless overthinking if mine.NebY (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I doubt if you'll get the exact same results as I do, but try a google search with Sulimirski Scythians Anatolia Thracian. Quite a bit crops up; much of it's a little elderly (Sulimirski included) but some is recent. None is fully searchable but it's probably worth trying for snippets and selected extracts, just to sniff out other possibilities if nothing more. Ch 23 of "Thracians and Scythians - A Companion to ancient Thrace" by David Braund. I think at the moment, this is just about plausibility - of Herodotus' limited account and understanding, of modern attempts to join the dots of a very fragmentary history to a much wider geographical context than Herodotus could have conceived; his world being both infinitely larger and smaller than ours. And we do the same, it can't be helped. How much can (or should) be slipped into the huge space between the known and the guessed-at, to form a working historical narrative? Perhaps I had an inkling of this question coming up, when I posted the link to Romm. Or is that wishful thinking... I'll post when I can; possibly not until next week. Haploidavey (talk) 06:29, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Or not. Blame the Cimmerians! Haploidavey (talk) 06:37, 27 August 2021 (UTC) You might try academia.org for The Cimmerian Problem Re-Examined: the Evidence of the Classical Sources, Marek Jan Olbrycht. I didn't knw there was a Cimmerian problem; apparently there is. It isn't likely to get solved any time soon, but it seems to have a bearing on who was really who (or not), and where they did, and didn't live. I sort-of wish I hadn't gone there. Haploidavey (talk) 08:46, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Yikes, I'm glad you went there, otherwise I might have. I'm still tinkering with the table of offspring in my sandbox - almost article-ready again, once I reattach the references. NebY (talk) 20:19, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Kids' table

Is the "Comparative table of Ares' family" in Ares#Consorts and children clear? I see it's been through various changes, this version having been introduced in 2018[7] to replace a very long numbered one. Having two columns for consorts and three for children meant I never understood it until I stopped to really work it out. Is that just me? If not, I might sandbox an alternative. NebY (talk) 21:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I do find it quite hard work. I'm not sure why - I have to admit I usually struggle to cope with tables and columns (despite having to scrape a bare pass in statistics once upon a time). I always find these list/table style genealogies hard work - not just this one. I guess some people get a lot from them. But actually, I have to confess that I too am a little nonplussed by 2 columns for consorts and three for children. Looks like some complicated railway timetable... Also where it is in the article; people who like them always bung them towards the beginning. I'd rather see them towards the end (assumig i want to see them at all. Haploidavey (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I've reworked it without moving it, for now. I hope it's clearer. I've removed the term "consort" which suggests a lasting recognised relationship; I may be being unfair to Ares but Greek gods weren't famous for loyalty to mortal girls, or nymphs either. On the other hand, they weren't all victims and I daren't call Aphrodite his floozy, so I've dodged it, made the table child-centric, and listed their mothers.

I was tempted to let the distinction between divine, semidivine and mortal mothers go; it would have made the table simpler.

The substance bothers me a bit. It references Pseudo-Plutarch and an 1833 antiquarian who denied there were any temples of Ares in Greece.[8], but most are unreferenced. I think some are sometimes ascribed to Ares and sometimes to different fathers. I fear we might be repeating the inventions of late poets who needed a metre completing, couldn't or wouldn't remember the usual tradition, or just made stuff up under poetic licence, or the errors of marginalists. NebY (talk) 22:40, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Readable at last. I like that it's short (a fraction less than a screen-full on my browser at least). Clear, even. And yes, we're not in a world where marriage certificates and common law wifery count for anything much. It's a good dodge. The main relevance I can think of for mortal, divine, semi-divine mother categories would be in the divine or semi-divine status of offspring who turn out to be city founders in local or dynastic tradition, utter anti-heroes & whatever. Even then... not so sure. Just to run something possibly relevant past you: in Venus (mythology) folks kept querying the ommission of a particular (so-called divine) epithet, Venus Acidalia; it turned out to be a literary conceit (a smidgin of Ovid, and Virgil via Servius) but as it was all over the Internet as divine epithet, so rather than keep going back over the same stuff I included it, with explanation. No cultus. That worked out, because good secondary sources supported that interpretation. Not so lucky with Venus Heliopolitana, an entirely modern scholarly construct, and an essential component in the so-called Heliopolitan Triad, which is probably an even flimsier modern scholarly construct but conforms to mainstream opinion. Ay yi!

For the table, I'd be inclined to start with a clear deck - strip out anything unsourced, because sooner rather than later, someone will go tag-happy on it. Which of course can't be prevented when it happens. In that circumstance, I wouldn't be tempted to offer a single outdated source as evidence. Haploidavey (talk) 08:03, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Better. Every entry should have a source. The semi-divine category has definitional problems see our article on demigod#Classical. Paul August ☎ 12:37, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Really good point about semi-divine. I've removed that column, which will make it easier for anyone to edit and already let me compact the section.

I hear what you're saying about unsourced entries but I can't quite bring myself to delete eg Phobos and Alcippe. On the other hand, I only wanted to make the table legible and that's done. For me, this is about the least interesting part of Ares and I'm reacting to it weirdly like others react to fancruft, so I'm really not up for sourcing it all. But is anyone else? NebY (talk) 21:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think you should delete unsourced entries. Phobos is well-known as the offspring of Ares and Aphrodite (and easy to source see Hesiod, Theogony, 933). While Ares's daughter Alcippe is obscure (but still easy to source, see Apollodorus, 3.14.2). But any that are obscure (e.g. no article) and difficult to source are candidates for removal. Paul August ☎ 23:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I used Phobos and Alcippe as examples. Sorry if I wasn't clear. You're right that every entry should have a source, but reformatting the table's exhausted my interest in Ares's offspring and my scholarship. Would you suggest tagging the section {{more citations needed section}} (and maybe {{Primary sources}}), or each entry {{Citation needed}}? NebY (talk) 00:21, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Well you've certainly done your part here. You can add those tags if you want, I'm fine either way. Paul August ☎ 15:44, 4 September 2021 (UTC)

Just need to say I'm deeply gobsmacked by the care, quality and quantity of NebY's work on this. Notwithstanding tags or their lack, the article is waxing scholarly. Some work remains to be done on the few very curious women's cults to Ares. I'd not be surprised if we were all close to burn-out. Haploidavey (talk) 19:01, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! But you did all the research and heavy lifting, while I got to enjoy the copy-editing for accessibility and the chatting. Happy to ease off now, we may be coming towards the point of diminishing returns. NebY (talk) 22:05, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, you both have done excellent work here. Paul August ☎ 01:09, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Sourcing

@Markx121993:, I see you've added a citation to Natalis Comes. As our own article on him makes clear, we can't use him as a source, and most outstandingly not for parentage. He "constructed intricate genealogical associations within which he found layers of meaning", was called "utterly useless" at the time and more recently described as presenting "The most apocryphical and outlandish versions of classical and pseudo-classical tales." NebY (talk) 12:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I think we can source him but just take it as note that it is an unreliable source? The thing is, we just present the myths according to various sources, may it reliable or not. What do you think? Markx121993 (talk) 13:04, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

How do we tell the reader that this is unreliable? Worse, why would we knowingly mix his "outlandish versions" in with reliably sourced material? We wouldn't be giving the reader a good picture of Greek mythology.

But even more fundamentally, this is Wikipedia. The Five Pillars demand good sources - "explain major points of view, giving due weight for their prominence", "All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources". We can't say "may it reliable or not". NebY (talk) 13:22, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Ares' birth by Hera through parthenogenesis (Ovid)

According to Ovid, Ares was born of Hera through parthenogenesis with the help of a herb, to antagonize Zeus who had bore Athena by himself.

Link to the text itself. Jump to [229]

I haven't seen Ovid's version of the story anywhere in the wiki, so I'm providing the source and the text so mods or confirmed users can add it accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.233.72 (talk) 01:42, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

The most likely reason for not finding this anywhere on Wikipedia is that on the whole, Wikipedia editors take care to observe the considerable differences between the Roman and Greek versions of the myths attached to "equivalent" deities. Theoi does not. And nor do many of Ovid's early or modern translators. If the source is Ovid, the deities here would be Juno, Jupiter (Iove) and Mars, not Hera, Zeus and Ares. Frazer gets that right (per the theoi translation, presumably from the Latin), but Ovid took the whole thing from Greek sources in the first place (apparently he didn't). Ovid is a poet, not a historian of theology, and by his time, most Romans would have regarded their dii consentes as "the same" as the twelve Olympians. This is one among various reasons that theoi.com, useful and accurate though it is in many ways, should neither be used as a primary or a secondary source for Wikipedia articles. The story is already in Wikipedia, in the Mars article, thoroughly discussed. It's unique to Ovid, and seems not to draw on any Greek myth. Haploidavey (talk) 07:21, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, Ovid's Latin has Juno and Mars. In the Fasti, he works painstakingly through the Roman calendar, explaining Roman rituals, customs and traditions with Roman history, legends, mythology and religion. Written at the time of Augustus's imperial Roman revivals (cf Aeneid), it's quite different from the Metamorphoses and has very little to do with Greek mythology. NebY (talk) 17:14, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

The thing is, it's still based on the Greek myth of Zeus giving birth to Athena, hence what made Hera jealous. And it's not the first time that Hera (in Greek myths) gives birth without Zeus (see Typhon and Hephaestus). In addition, the wiki article for Medusa is heavily relying on Ovid's version of her, that she was once a beautiful woman who got raped by Poseidon and cursed by Athena, whilst in the ancient Greek myth she was born that way, as one of the Gorgons. Same with myths of other deities and heroes, the Roman versions are all treated the same in their articles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.242.233.72 (talk) 19:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you have any sources that say that Ovid was writing about Hera and Ares in that passage in the Fasti? NebY (talk) 22:08, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Images

A pic was added to the section on Ares and Aphrodite bound. I'm all-too-aware that the availability of images for Ares (the Greek god, not Roman Mars)is very, very limited, but I'd also like to avoid pictorial emphasis on a single story, especially where that story derives from the brief but highly dramatic, Homeric "interlude" of Ares and Aphrodite "caught in the net". It's relevant to the Ares cult, and is most likely a mythic explanation of his ritual binding (see the article section on ritually bound deities) but it's also a quite common subject in more modern (renascence and post-renascence) painting. Both images are labelled in Commons as Venus and Mars, not Ares and Aphrodite; the article goes to some trouble to point out the originally separate identities of these very similar (not identical) deities, even if those differences were eroded into a relatively bland Mars-Ares identity during the late Republic and early empire. Anyway, I suggest that the newly added (wonderfully overblown and overcrowded) version is transferred to the "Mars" section, and the other, partial image is entirely removed. Please do let me know your thoughts on this. Thanks, Haploidavey (talk) 07:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Removed it. Deiadameian (talk) 07:33, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

OK, but I tried each in a different position, and chose the 16th (sorry, that should be 17th) century painting to place beside the "Mars" section, mostly because it came with sourced commentary on its origins and background. Haploidavey (talk) 13:52, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it's right to put it as near as possible to the "Renaissance and later depictions" section, or in it if that section was longer. I'm not so bothered by the name the painter (or whoever) gave it - at that time, calling Greek gods by Roman names was normal (cf Pope's Iliad with "14: Juno deceives Jupiter by the Girdle of Venus"), and that particular myth was fully developed in classical Greece. It's the fantasy archaisms that would jar if we showed it in the main body of the article - though Artemis/Diana's luna tiara could justify a lot! NebY (talk) 18:46, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2022

In the section "5.8.1 List of offspring and their mothers", the link to Harmonia (Mother of the Amazons, line 11 of table 1) should be "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonia_(nymph)" instead of "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonia" SpecialK89 (talk) 19:57, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Done. Thank you for noticing the problem. Dimadick (talk) 07:06, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HUM 202 - Introduction to Mythology

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 August 2022 and 9 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TheMarshmallow5 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Koolkat646, Softballdad.

— Assignment last updated by Dr.pepperlvr (talk) 08:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Category removal

@NebY:, why was the category Category:Shapeshifters in Greek mythology removed? The reason is given as 'not defining' but how exactly is 'defining' defined in the first place, especially since it is supported by a reliable source? He's also categorized as Consorts of Eos, based on a single, late tale, which is hardly any more defining, especially since Ares is a major god, and it is understood that shapeshifting is a common power (and defining, as mortals don't) for a Greek god, setting them apart from mortals who cannot do that. Hermes is also categorized as Mythological rapists, even though it is definitely not a defining characteristic when his overall mythology is considered, as it refers to one or two myths, compared the myths of Poseidon and Zeus. Thank you. Deiadameian (talk) 16:23, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

It's not a characteristic that reliable sources commonly and consistently refer to in describing Ares and per WP:TRIVIALCAT is wholly peripheral to the topic's notability. The story, as you've added it, is a late and isolated poetic invention for which you've cited only a primary source, without antecedents or legacy. It doesn't set Ares aside from other Greek gods or tell us anything of encyclopedic note about him. Yes, we have such problems elsewhere; that doesn't make it any better. NebY (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Eris

I don't see it mentoin Eris (If you don't know who Eris is she is the goddess of strife and she has a golden apple when thrown at the enemy will cause confusion and cause war to break out between them ) Greek Myth-Boy (talk) 18:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Eris is referred to twice in the body of the text, and is listed amongst Ares' siblings in the infobox. The Apples of Discord get a mention too. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:54, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

That is wrong Ares' siblings are Eileithyia, Hebe and Hephaestus and Athena was his half-sister Greek Myth-Boy (talk) 14:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)