Talk:Archie Sam

A fact from Archie Sam appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 September 2013 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Natchez traditionalist Archie Sam hunted with the Inughuit in Northern Greenland during World War II?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2013/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Archie Sam.

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Muscogee Creek?[edit]

In the interview with Sam he identifies very clearly as Natchez, and does not mention either Muscogee Creek or Cherokee (except that his mother was Cherokee). I assume that the Muscogee Creek was his tribal affiliation given that the Muscogee Nation includes Natchez people? But I think we need sources that show he identified as Muscogee Creek/Cherokee to use that as a definition.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 19:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I was surprised to find a Wikipedia article for him. There's no fullblood Natchez people and haven't been in ages; they are all enrolled the Muscogee Creek Nation and Cherokee Nation (Hutke Fields is enrolled in the latter). Nabokov 114 is a reference for Archie Sam having "Cherokee and Natchez ancestry." Mails' 'Cherokee People' mentions Archie Sam numerous times, and specifically points out that Creek Sam, Archie's grandfather, was "Creek, Cherokee, and Natchez" (Mails 279). In American Indian Lacrosse: Little Brother of War, Archie Sam is listed as "Creek" (Vennum 180). In Traditional Music of Native Northwest California, Archie Sam is listed as "Creek, Cherokee" (Bommelyn et al. 82, 98). -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

I dont think he needs to be fulblooded to be listed as Natchez. He very clearly defined himself as such and stated that he had been raised as such since he was a child. He was enrolled in the Muscogee Nation because that was where the Natchez ended up. We dont need Nabokov as a reference for his ancestry because we have his own word for his mother being Cherokee, and his father Natchez - and he very clearly considers himself to be Natchez, not Creek or Cherokee. I think selfidentification has priority when it is as clear as it is in this case.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In no way, shape, or form am I saying he is not Natchez. He is Natchez and also Muscogee Creek and Cherokee, as I provided citations for. You would have to provide citations that he did *not* consider himself also Cherokee and Muscogee. It's Oklahoma, belonging to three (or six) tribes is not uncommon at all. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:43, 3 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

That is not exactly the way the policy works most of the time. One cannot give evidence for a negative. According to policy regarding ethnic identification we give priority to selfidentification, not to blood quantum (So Obama is not for example Kenyan-American but African-American). I think the best argument is the fact that it is common to belong to more tribes in Oklahoma, but still we have his own word that he considered himself Natchez and identified with that part of his heritage and not the others. Also since Natchez isnøt a tribe but Natchez people are members of the Muscogee and Cherokee nations. I think a better compromise would be to say that he was a Natchez, who had Cherokee ancestry and was a member of the Muscogee-Creek nation.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really not understanding why you are having a problem with the multiple tribal affiliations. Policy works like that all the time, e.g. List of writers from peoples indigenous to the Americas. He's Natchez-Muscogee Creek-Cherokee by blood and culture, I furnished citations demonstrating that heritage. -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:25, 3 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

I dont have a problem with multiple tribal affiliations, I have problem with defining him as a Muscogee-Creek-Cherokee NAtchez person in the definition when he clearly considered himself to be primarily (perhaps only) Natchez. Per policy citations from third parties regarding ethnicity does not override selfidentification. E.g. we can find sources sayin that Obama is Kenyan-American, but since he doesnøt consider himself to be that we dont define him that way in the lead. I agree that policy is a little fuzzy when it comes to tribal affiliation etc. The only problem I have with it is because from what I have read of him it seems clear that he wanted to be thought of primarily as a Natchez person by his contemporaries and by those remembering him. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am not going to push it further, if you think this is the best way of defining him then that is alright I guess. I am just surprised that you dont know of the policy that prioritizes selfidentification over thirdhand ethnic identification. Its the same policy that means we cant tag people with "LGBT" or "Muslim" because some sources calls them that, unless they themselves identify as such. I cant find a link to the policy now for the life of me.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:50, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And by the way thanks for expanding the article and supplying that extra information.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Creek/Cherokee tribal affiliations comes from Archie's other interviews with other authors. He led Muscogee Creek and Cherokee dances, as well as Natchez, so it's not like he was ashamed of or trying to keep those heritages secret. I believe he was enrolled in the United Keetoowah Band but can't find a reliable source for that. -Uyvsdi (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Did you know him? You clearly knew of him. User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 02:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, he was a family friend; that's why I was a little surprised to see a Wikipedia article for him. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Ive been reading up on the Natchez lately and his name figures prominently in all the recent sources, so I thought Id make the article. Then when I found the interview he just kind of came a live to me. He seems to have been a really great guy.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 12:45, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent reference[edit]

Wanted to include Sam's tribal affiliation. The "Burning Phoenix" is a legitimate scholarly study published by a government entity [1] [2]; it just happens to be posted online on a self-published website. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:50, 13 September 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Should be fine.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:56, 13 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Military service conundrum[edit]

This: "Sam enlisted in 45th Infantry Division of the United States Air Force[3]" doesn't make sense. The Air Force doesn't have infantry units. The Air Force didn't exist til 1947. What more likely happened is he enlisted in the Army in 1940, joined that Infantry unit, and then transferred to the Army Air Corps, which became a separate service, the US Air Force, in 1947. HalfGig (talk) 11:28, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That is what happened yes, In the interview he describes enlisting in infantry and transfering to air force later on.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 14:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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