Talk:Animal glue

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Bolded words[edit]

Why are some words bolded? Any reason?

Changed to quote marks or italics as appropriate. Is OK? Just plain Bill 23:28, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, remnants of the style recommendation of putting first occurrences of subject and alternative titles in bold, that were mostly obsoleted by the added content. Femto 11:26, 29 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Hide glue[edit]

Unless anyone objects in the next few days, I propose to bring text from hide glue to this article, and have that article redirect here. __Just plain Bill (talk) 13:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going ahead with this merge, can you please swallow "hoof glue" too. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I still have reservations about this merge (but I didn't fix it myself first, so that's my problem). There are three sorts of glue (hide, rabbi-skin, fish) and they're all distinct. I'd hate to see it swallow rabbit-skin or fish too.
I had some reservations as well, and it's good to see interest being shown. I use hide glue a lot, but am only familiar with rabbit and fish glue from my reading, such as Ralph Mayer's reference tome on artists' materials. Hoof glue is a new one to me. It might be a good idea to separate Hide glue out again, or perhaps not, swallowing hoof glue as well, as you suggest. I'll be watching this space... __Just plain Bill (talk) 16:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think ideally (if I'd got off my arse) I'd have done this as a very thin article on "animal glue" with "Main article this way" links out above each of three one- or two-para sections on each glue. So the majority of the content would still be in the hide article.
All I know about "hoof" suggests that it's a lower grade of hide, usually handled as the old "Scotch" glue in large cakes rather than pearls. It's a bit more temperamental to work with, owing to the big lumps, but otherwise the same.
I've used rabbit-skin a fair bit in bookbinding and leatherwork (leather to wood), also as a constituent of gessos and compo. It's very like hide glue, only flexible when dry. I'm no artist, so I'm not familiar with it for sizing. Fish-skin glue I've used for hiding nails and pins, because of the high initial tack (Lee Valley sell a tiny bottle of it, with their hidden-nailing jig). Some people also use it for picture framing, for the same reason. I've also tried it for sticking fish leathers down, but found it a bit unpleasant to work with, so went to either petroleum contact adhesives or rabbit-skin instead. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thin article with links from sub-sections seems like a better way to get it organized than the way it is now. If I get off my bum before you get off your (horse, was it?) then that's the way we'll soon see it. __Just plain Bill (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Template ({{morefootnotes}})[edit]

Only 4 inline citations in entire article.The Onion 22:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

"Noxious odors"[edit]

I just did some minor cleanup, removing red links, and took out the mention of "noxious odors" as a reason animal is now "more difficult to find and use." Modern synthetic adhesives are widely accepted despite odors, not to mention vapors requiring ventilation and masks in some cases. I have gotten the occasional stinky batch of hide glue, but no longer get it from those sources. Decent quality glue with an inoffensive odor is easy enough to find, thanks in part to online vendors addressing the long tail of the market. I don't have any experience with fish glue... If anyone wants to restore the "noxious odors," a reliable source will be nice to see. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Modern hide glue smells just as bad if you overheat it. IMHO it's not the glue that has changed, it's the use of thermostatically controlled electric gluepots, rather than gas stoves to heat it. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:21, 9 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
In my training I used an improvised water bath consisting of a Pyrex custard cup in a rummage-sale saucepan on a flea market electric hot plate. Nowadays it is a stainless steel cream pitcher hanging over the edge of a dedicated crock pot slow cooker, without a thermostat. Temperature control amounts to how far aside I push the lid. Although luthiers have a name for being cavalier with their glue (there is a ref for that wording somewhere, but can't be asked to chase it just now) I haven't lost a batch to overheating or microbes in many dozens of months, knock on wood. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 23:08, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's worth having a thermostat, and an adjustable, repeatable one at that (I use a chemistry lab stirrer hotplate, just because I happen to have one, with a traditional cast iron inner). Changing the temperature changes the viscosity, which can be useful for some tasks, especially veneering. A thermostat control, rather than just equilibrium control, allows faster warm up too. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sami bows[edit]

The Sami people use glue boiled from European perch to make bows by manufacturing tree composites. No source yet. But the bows are among the best to be found. Rursus dixit. (mbork3!) 09:56, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When you find a source, you may want to add it to composite bow as well. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gap-filling properties[edit]

I changed the statement that hide glue does not have gap-filling properties. IMO this is one of those internet powered myths that takes on a life of its own. All the authoritative sources on adhesives I have seen state that it has gap-filling properties. I cited one of these in my correction. There are many more examples. I use the stuff almost every day and experience its gap filling properties all the time. Can't understand where the idea that is not a gap filler (in the sense that PVA is not a gap filler) came from, as its gap filling properties have been known for centuries and are well documented, plus born out by easily testable experience. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasforte (talk • contribs) 11:05, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OTOH, I use it many days (sadly not as many as I used to), and I wouldn't regard it as suitable for gap filling at all! It _fills_ gaps, but it's very weak across them. Certainly in my damp UK climate, a wide gap in a hide glue joint is one that's going to first creep, then fail over a winter.
If I have gaps to fill, and I'm working with hide glue alone, then I'd cut a wooden filler to fill the gap and glue it in with a thin glue bond on each side. This practice is sourceable right across my bookshelf, in joinery handbooks from 1850 to 1950. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I use it many days as well, mostly 192 gram strength glue, adjusting its dilution to suit the application. I will not use it to fill gaps. Hide glue shrinks as it dries, and dries to a brittle state in my temperate northeast US climate. For tight joints, that shrinkage is an advantage. For gaps more than a small fraction of a millimeter, not so much so. Google is not showing me the text of the Ebnesajjad reference. What does it say? __ Just plain Bill (talk) 14:17, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's published by William Andrew, who are a credible tech publisher in this field and part of Elsevier. However there's no author listed, just an editor (the cite is wrong in this respect) and the front matter suggests that the book is compiled from manufacturer's data, rather than written from scratch. It certainly states "hide glues are gap-filling" and it has a cite for this, which unfortunately isn't in the Google preview. As a separate point, the book is horrible to read: bad prose, badly (if at all) edited. I thought it was going to be self-published until I read the frontispiece. It reads like a Wikipedia article, and not a good one. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Cheers! Both the Johnson/Courtnall and Weisshaar violin-making books disparage the use of hide glue as filler. Both books are very well-regarded in the trade. Johnson graduated with a distinction from the Newark School of Violin Making, and as of 2000 ran his own shop in Leicestershire. Weisshaar trained some of the best modern violinmakers now working in the US. From Weisshaar and Shipman: "Animal hide glue is not a filler and well-fit joints are a must." This is consistent with my experience; unless the joint between a violin's neck root and its mortice is snug all round, with full contact everywhere, that joint will fail, sooner rather than later, no matter how thickly the glue is trowelled on. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 15:28, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see you've tidied up the cite, but I'm not at all happy with it. I've got a couple of high quality references to hand that say it ain't so, and I believe you've got a shelf full of them. So far, that seems to overbalance an iffy compendium of recently paraphrased data sheets, if I've understood you right. I'll wait a while before doing anything hasty. __ Just plain Bill (talk) 16:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't dispute the cited ref (I'd want to check its source ref first, at least), but I would happily add the contra- view and change the text to make it clear that many authorities are clearly against gap filling.
If that book wasn't so horribly written, I might even have bought it by now! I could certainly use a modern textbook like that. I'll try library loans, maybe even university, but I lose my university library access shortly. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the question is around relative gap filling abilities; epoxy has really raised expectations about what a gap-filling glue is capable of, but I think there's a sliding scale. Some glues are amazing gap fillers, some don't fill gaps at all, and some are in between. I agree I would not use hide glue as you might use epoxy to glue a very loose fitting joint and, yes, it would fail if used like this. However it is a much better gap filler than PVA which really needs almost perfectly fitting joints. Hide glue in my experience will reliably hold together joints that would be at risk of failure with PVA. I often disassemble joints which have held for many years with hide glue and find that have more slop in them than PVA would allow. So long as there is a good amount of wood to wood contact in the joint the hide glue will fill in any gaps and thus prevent movement that might lead to breakage. This was a necessity back in the day as, like with industry now, things usually needed to be made fast, and if joints were being fitted by hand there wasn't time to get a perfect fit every time and still make money. I would say it is a good, but not excellent gap filler. If people want to call it 'medium' that would be fine by me. --Rasforte (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with this. "Good" gap filling is entirely subjective and there's a spectrum between small surface irregularities and a gaping hole. Unless we can quantify this, saying "good" or not is meaningless. But we could certainly say it has better gap filling ability than PVA glue. --Ericjs (talk) 17:54, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I had a peek at the Ebnesajjad source, and did not see the claim that animal glue has "good" gap filling properties. As I've said here before, two reliable printed sources disagree, one going so far as to say "Animal glue is never used as a filler to compensate for a poor joint." (Courtnall & Johnson, p. 62) __ Just plain Bill (talk) 19:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

`Scotch Glue'[edit]

I have heard animal glue (as heated in the old-type glue-pots) being referred to as `Scotch Glue' (this being a generic term, and not a brand name). Does anyone know why? Barney Bruchstein (talk) 15:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know. One of my 1920s books (at a time with lots of large area veneered work, but before the synthetic glues take off) says that it's a cheap form of hide glue, being made from bones rather than hides. It goes on to say that it's made in cakes, like slabs of toffee, and isn't available as quick-melting pearls, "as the better brands of glue are now supplied". Overall it seems to be saying that Scotch is a second-rate form of glue and less convenient to use. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:23, 24 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It might might been used in that context as a synonym for "cheap" as per the stereotype of Scots being frugal. --Ericjs (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hoof glue: More fiction than fact.[edit]

Seriously.

Keratin glue is a thing but "hoof glue" is not. The manuals which reference it appear to have plagerised a wikipedia article which is based on a mistranslation in a book of "ἐκ διπλοῦ σανιδώματος ταυροκόλλῃ" from polybius. ταυροκόλλῃ does not say "cow's hoof glue". It just says bull glue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.130.11 (talk) 07:54, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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