Talk:Andy Murray

Calendar year section subtitles

I've trimmed down the heading next to the "2015" section, just because it contained far too much information, and I feel like the headings attached to each section should be brief summaries of the most important events of that particular season, rather than every single notable achievement. In the case of 2015, I felt winning the Davis Cup and finishing as number 2 in the world for the first time ranked above his first clay titles, 500th match win and another runner-up finish at the Australian Open, had he won in Melbourne for instance that would have merited it's own mention in the heading. Thetradge (talk) 2 December 2015, 00:24 (UTC)

Nationality is wrong. Born in Scotland = Scottish.

Nationality is wrong. Born in Scotland = Scottish. 124.254.108.198 (talk) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed more than a few times (practically ad infinitum, in fact). I'm sure that Murray's passport says that he is British, because Scottish is not an official nationality. He has also played for the GB Davis Cup team, which is one of the main reasons why he is described this way in the lead section. It's never quite that simple, because WP:UKNATIONALS applies.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that clarification. I've changed Sue Barker's page to reflect this ruling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.249.184.221 (talk) 22:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Murray has stated in multiple interviews he is both Scottish and British. He has also represented Scotland and Great Britain in tennis. Therefore I have edited the page to reflect this. TG11TG15 (talk) 17:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Please review the talk page archives and start a WP:RfC to gain consensus for your change, as the previous discussions differ from your preferred version.-- Jezebel's Ponyo^{bons mots} 18:05, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I've looked into this particular case before. His own profile on his own website (courtesy link) describes him as British (using the words 'British', 'Britain' and 'Briton' multiple times). WP:UKNATIONALS places a great deal of weight on such self-identifications; I'm sure there are plenty of examples of him describing himself as either/both in interviews, but his own personal profile seems to me to be the most prominent statement of such an identification. For sportspeople, we also place a lot of weight in which national team they play for. I'm a Scot myself, who describes himself as such despite now living in England, but if we are to follow our own guidelines, we ought to be describing Andy as British (without obviously trying to obfuscate the fact that he was born and raised in Scotland). Girth Summit _(blether) 18:45, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Current consensus is that since Murray's notability is primarily as a British tennis player, and has represented the Great Britain Davis Cup team, the lead and info box should say British. Had he voiced any opinion about wishing to be identified as purely Scottish, it would be a different matter. But he's done precisely the opposite, as indeed the article discusses.

What the article says currently is as established after much discussion. Anyone wanting to change that would really have to bring something new to the table. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 13:06, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Why not instead put "British tennis player from Scotland"? This does not negate that Murray is British and represents Britain when he plays Davis Cup, but it makes sure that both of his national identities are covered. One of the issues is that for many people around the world Britain and England are synonymous, so if both aspects of his nationality are not specified then there may be an incorrect assumption that he is English. 94.174.171.168 (talk) 14:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

He represents Britain whenever he plays tennis. Great Britain is his registered nationality with the International Tennis Federation, and can't play without that endorsement. Usually if we say anything in the lead about what nation a player is from, it would be their nation... that would be the UK, USA, India, etc.... We don't usually say California, Caledonia, Wales, etc. Ignorance of folks on the term British is not sufficient when the book definition is "relating to Great Britain or the United Kingdom", or "belonging to or relating to the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or its people: 'He has a British passport'." Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

California is not a country; Scotland is - the UK is a union of four nations. The page for former athlete Colin Jackson describes him as "Welsh", despite primarily competing for Britain. I'm not proposing removing "British" - no information would be lost, confused or compromised by simply revising to the previous description of "British tennis player from Scotland". What is the rationale for removing Scotland? As a poster above states "Murray has stated in multiple interviews he is both Scottish and British. He has also represented Scotland and Great Britain in tennis." 94.174.171.168 (talk) 10:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah the Brits do use the word “nation” because they like to be confusing. It doesn’t mean Scotland is a sovereign state with a legal Scottish nationality appearing in relevant legal documents.Tvx1 16:14, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

We've been through this a hundred times before (see the talk page archive). He's described as British because that is the country he represents in competition of the sport that makes him notable. The only reason to change that is if he has personally and expressly stated a preference otherwise. Nationhood, legal documents, passports, sovereignty etc are topics wheeled out regularly in this debate, and are all irrelevant to this Wikipedia article. Other compromises have been discussed, but they always end up being disputed, reading horribly, and have the suggestion of undue pushing about what Murray should be.--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 16:30, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Passport is a travel document, does not define a nationality. He is Scottish. It is that simple. I am sure that he himself identifies as Scottish. Hope this helps. 24.47.21.201 (talk) 18:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Clearly you don’t understand what passports are. They are not only travel documents, they are primarily proof of identity. Just like identity cards or driver’s licenses they prove that a person is a citizen and thus legal national of a certain sovereign state. So, yes they do very much define nationality. Murray has a passport of the United Kingdom which has a nationality field that states “British”. And that’s the nationality he uses in his notable activity:playing professional tennis. And while he has identified as British occasionally, he has more frequently and notably identified as British. Like when he sang along to God Save the Queen after winning something with a British team on multiple occasions.Tvx1 23:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Grigor Dimitrov link

Hi there. I just put a wikilink for tennis player Grigor Dimitrov in 2023 season and you remove it. You say that he is already linked. Where? We talk about the whole Wikipedia article? Their last match before September 2023 was in 2016! The link is tοο much above! There should be a link for the conveninve of the reader! Other tennis players are linked more than once in the whole article. @Tollens @Johnson524

Nikos218 (talk) 18:53, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello @Nikos218: there is a wikilink to the Grigor Dimitrov page already in the Wimbledon champion and back surgery section, so I reverted your edit, as Wikipedia typically only likes one wikilink per page. FWIW, most Page Reviewers like myself don't spend more than a few minutes on each review- as they are typically pretty straight forward. If you can explain why having a wikilink to his page in this section would be beneficial, then I would be open to keeping it there, but you would also have to convince Tollens. Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia, cheers! Johnson524 19:14, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, I didn't realize how incredibly long this article was. Considering the length of the article and the fact that readers are likely not going to read the timeline from top to bottom but rather skip to a specific section, I've restored the link. Tollens (talk) 21:39, 9 October 2023 (UTC)