Talk:Anastas Avramidhi-Lakçe

Inaccuracies

The first source says "Ioannis Bangas and Anastasios Avramidis-Liaktsis have a definite place. When the former became rich in Egypt after 1833, he settled in Romania and after 1850 he runned..."

• Using it as a reference to say that he became rich in Egypt and runned a business in Romania after 1850 is wrong because the source refers to Bangas not to Avramidis.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:07, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• When adding the wrong citation didn't anyone notice when writing this that he would have migrated from Korçë to Egypt and become a rich merchant at the age of 13 as he was born in 1821?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• You are right, he wasn't 13 he was 17 when he went to Egypt [[1]].Alexikoua (talk) 06:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

There it mentions him as "Liaktse" probably because of his Aromanian origins. Maybe we should add that name also in the article. According to the first source he would probably have to be about 8 to go in Egypt and at the age of 13 be rich.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 09:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Removal without source checking

According to this [[2]] Avramidis lived in Bucharest and worked there. I'm sorry I, but have to revert you.Alexikoua (talk) 20:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't mind, because I reverted because the sentence was "He became rich in Egypt and then run a business in Romania in 1850" due to wrong reference about Bangas not about Avramidis. With this new sentence you're not reverting me.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 21:14, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Anastas Avramidhi-Lakçe

It seems that Greek "groups" tend to translate names and add fictional attributes but according to all non-Greek books he was not only not Greek but also an Albanian favouring the Albanian cause[3][4].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I expanded the article as much as possible for the moment.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 16:32, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I think you forgot or overlooked something, p. 310 in the Clayer book (Aux origines du nationalism albanais): "Le Métropolite alerta le Patriarcat et bloqua le testament d'Anastas Avramidhi Lakçe. Celui-ci, effrayé, changea d'avis et de parti, repassant du côté des riches orthodoxes." – ["the bishop alerted the patriarchate and blocked the testament of Anastas Avramidhi Lakçe. The latter, shocked, changed opinion and switched sides, joining the side of the wealthy orthodox" (i.e. the side that was opposed to the support of Albanian language education)] So, if I understand that correctly, he first wanted to use his money to support Albanian language education, but then didn't? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:54, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Neither, I'm trying to find more info about that because he had already founded the opening of the first Albanian school by then and there seem to be a lot of texts in Albanian historiography about his last will. From what I've found so far a clause was added stating that his money would be used 50%-50% for educational and religious issues. After his death there was a dispute between the patriarchate and Orhan Pojani the executor of his will, leading to Avramidhi's money used for neither promotion of education nor religious affairs, but still remaining in the bank. I'll write a separate paragraph for this, I don't intend to avoid the subject. It would be interesting if someone could calculate the precise amount of his wealth today. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:05, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Seems we had another snippet abuse case, by the way all the provided bibliography agrees with Clayer, so I've changed this part.Alexikoua (talk) 11:14, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Then you'll have to revert yourself because that is about his will not the school, about I have already added that it was blocked.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 12:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Initially you misused bibliography saying that he sponsored the first Albanian school in Korce... Now although 2 sources say that he did NOT sponsored this initiative, after discussions with the Greek Orthodox representatives you completely removed this part (suppose that's your plan B). That's the definition of disruption (at least respect Fut's comments).Alexikoua (talk) 17:46, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(undindent) Alexikoua the source is about his will not about the school and please avoid npa violations as you did before editing your reply. Btw the discussion with Greek representatives is your OR deduction because Clayer says that the patriarchate just blocked his will when they learned that he was going to leave his whole fortune to the activists of Korçë, so he had to divide it between religious and Albanian education activities which were again blocked by the patriarchate. Btw his money are still in the bank. --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 17:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Suppose you can't answer this: why does he wear (on the picture you uploaded) on his neck the Order_of_the_Redeemer [5], of the Greek government? No wonder this article confirms [[6]] that he was awarded with this. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is a very dirsuptive strategy, Zjarri.Alexikoua (talk) 22:28, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)And what does have to do with his last will(whose executor was Orhan Pojani, a Muslim Albanian activist of the Albanian national awakening) Btw 19th century Greek newspapers aren't RS so don't become disruptive and the order was given to Greeks and non-Greeks alike.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Quite a weird comment: you claim that the article isn't rs but on the other hand you admit that it was this medal (?). And the reason he was awarded with this medal is quite obvious: he supported the foundation of a Greek school in Korce. The article isn't used as an rs (as you pretend), since there are plenty of contemporary sources that confirm this.Alexikoua (talk) 06:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)I'm not supporting your or deduction(whether it is about Avramidhi actually being given the medal or the reasons if that happened) but saying that that medal was given to Greeks and non-Greeks alike. Alexikoua this OR deduction strategy with 19th century Greek newspapers as sources is disruptive because you don't have reliable sources just your deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 06:42, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

@Zjarri: I noticed that this medal is given only to who have defended the interests of the country in time of war or, who have rendered highly exceptional social services in Greece or abroad. (it's obvious: X country gives medal to Y guy, because he did something for X) and this isn't an or deduction unless the picture is fake.Alexikoua (talk) 08:24, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Alexikoua that medal you're assuming he's being given has also been given to Akihito so please stop making OR deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 08:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Since he did something exceptional for Greece he was awarded with this medal, quite obvious.Alexikoua (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Massive deletions of sourced parts by ZjarriRrethues

It seems that the following stuff was removed due to the latest blitzkrieg activity the article suffered:

• Balkan studies: biannual publication of the Institute for Balkan Studies, Τόμος 40. Hidryma Meletōn Chersonēsou tou Haimou (Thessalonikē, Greece), p. 226:

"at a time when Albanian propaganda was at its height and the circles of the Albanian Diaspora in Bucharest were pressing Avramidis to support the establishment of an Albanian school in Koritsa".

• The Greeks of Northern Epirus and Greek-Albanian relations. Basil Kondis, Hestia, 1995, p. 9

"With the money bequeathed by An. Avramidis two schools of the Hellenic type, a girls' school, and three primary schools were founded"

• Balkan studies, Τόμος 37. Hetaireia Makedonikōn Spoudōn. Hidryma Meletōn Cheresonēsou tou Haimou, p. 242:

"Neither Ioannis Bangas nor Avramidis-Liaktsis ever married, believing that, unburdened by a family, they would be better able to use their property in the service of the nation. "

Suppose they were removed by accident since no explanation was given for the massive removal of reliable material sourced by: Society for Macedonian Studies (a government sponsored institution consists of uni. professors), and Basil Kondis. It seems also there are plenty of Greek sources that support the above facts [[7]], [[8]]. (Ekdotike Athenon included, a top graded publishing house awarded by Athens Academy)

Another interesting fact is this: [9]] Avramidis demanded that Albanian should be taught as foreign language in order to make the donation.Alexikoua (talk) 21:36, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Full titles, bibliographical references and context please. We must finally put an end to the permanent abuse of google books. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh please. Alexikoua, when you quote from an academic journal, you need to cite the author and title of the article, not just the volume. Come on, that's really basic, and really important to assess what is what. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:10, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

He's quoting again the "company of the Macedonian studies". Yes. Avramidhi demanded Albanian be taught in 1884 and later he founded the opening of the first Albanian school, the second source I added mentions that, the "foreing language" etc. are just editorial additions of the "company". Also Alexikoua doesn't seem to be able to bring any source that isn't a Greek nationalist-fueled publications mainly the "Macedonian studies" group. This isn't by any standards a reliable source. They also use a non-scientific style to their publications. Anyone who has ever read a neutral historical book will notice their nationalist-propagandist tendencies i.e "the Albanian propaganda was at its height" --— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:02, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua please change the title of the section since you're suggesting that I actually removed "massive amounts of texts", while I actually doubled the size of the article.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Suppose you need to prove that a government supported research institute is 'nationalistic'. In fact that's your personal opinion. And please, calm down, you removed all these parts without any discussion. Moreover it seems you make (accidentally?) serious errors in translation both from French and from Greek (company?)Alexikoua (talk) 22:15, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, why are you unable to bring even one source that isn't written by a Greek company/author that proves even one of your claims? I am calm and you should be too, because at the moment you're recycling the same arguments that are 100% against of all the rest of the books regarding Avramidhi. For example: Why do all books use the current title of the article and not the name used by the "company of Macedonian studies" and the rest of the Greek authors?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are wrong [[10]] [[11]] Henry Baerlein isn't Greek to me. By the way, what's this anti-Greek source obsession?Alexikoua (talk) 22:30, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The publisher is Argonaut, a Greek publishing house that has published for many years especially during the Cold War books fueling nationalism. My previous comment stands and I have absolutely no problem with using reliable sources. In fact I have actually used some Greek authors as sources in previous articles. And for the record one of your previous sources mentioned:

• In 1884 an Avramides a native of the city made an offer of 16,000 to the school authorities of Korça on condition that it is taught as a foreign language. This offer was rejected.

• Alexikoua omitted that part and connecting that with the fact that he later offered the primary funds for the opening of the first Albanian language school, a lot of context is provided.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:40, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua, am I right in assuming you have only read the Google Books snippets of the items you are "quoting" there? Man, this really has to stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:13, 1 May 2010 (UTC)