Talk:Air National Guard/Archive 1

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Archive 1

July 2003

Generally, pilots during Vietnam were active-duty. - Hephaestos 02:37 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Generally, Vietnam pilots are no longer active duty. Pizza Puzzle 02:38 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Generally, your assertion that ANG pilots got a lot of flying experience in Vietnam is incorrect. Which is what I meant. Hephaestos 02:40 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Generally, my assertion that ANG pilots might be more experienced than USAF pilots is not an uncommon POV. Pizza Puzzle 02:44 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I think what is meant by this saying is that many current members of the Air National Guard are former active duty Air Force pilots who flew in the Vietnam era, although this number is declining due to retirements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.170.223.65 (talk) 00:11, 1 June 2004 (UTC)
Could someone please inform me as to the requirements for joining the ANG? I am interested because of the current hubub over President Bush's service. Would his father have had to pull strings to get him into this service or not? I had thought that certain credentials would be required but that the average guy could get in. Not so? I apologize for asking here but could not find the answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.231.26.92 (talk) 22:08, 11 September 2004 (UTC)
that is absurd. most ANG members are average guys. given your remarkable ignorance regarding the US armed forces, i suggest that you refrain from mentioning your opinions on any of the relevant subjects (defense spending/policy, Iraq etc.) to reduce the spread of misinformation. 141.211.173.130 21:45, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)
During the time in question, getting a slot as an ANG pilot without previous flying experience was a little unusual but not unheard of. Most ANG members are average guys; most pilots are either Air Force veterans or commercial pilots who wish to serve on a reserve basis. So I think the answer to "pull strings" is maybe, maybe not.--Pmeisel 14:44, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)
The above "debate" baffles me, but four Guard squadrons (approx 150 pilots and 100 aircraft) spent a year in Vietnam after Tet 68. And literally thousands of USAF pilots after separating from active duty joined the ANG (and still do) to continue military service while pursuing civilan careers. btw, ALL Guard members are "average guys" in the sense that they are from the same cross-section of American society that the rest of the military is drawn from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Buckboard (talk • contribs) 07:49, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Need to expand this page

There is a lot of Air National Guard history that is not represented here. The organization began in the 1920s. I am adding this to my personal to do list but would love some help.--Pmeisel 02:26, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

December 2006

The reference to 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year is not applicable in all cases. Since 1954, the Air National Guard has played an ever-expanding role in providing NORAD with manned interceptors 24/7. This makes for a pretty mixed-up schedule for the pilots, and requires a lot of voluntary extra shifts. As for George W. Bush's father pulling strings, it would hardly be likely or necessary. I was regular Air Force from 1968 to 1972, mostly in NORAD. In the summer of 1968, the same time that Bush joined the Guard, I lived in the same barracks at Keesler AFB, MS with an enlisted man (E-2) in the Texas Air National Guard named John Conally III. His father was the Democratic governor of Texas. How likely is it that strings could be pulled for the son of an out-of-office Republican? National Guard units did not have a master list of those wanting to join, but rather a separate list for each job specialty. Since one motivation for some wanting to join was to minimize time on active duty, the hardest job to find volunteers for was interceptor pilot, due to both the extensive training requirements and the above 24/7 requirement. 68.110.202.8 23:57, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Majcom?

Under what Majcom would the ANG be classified, and why? 192.91.173.42 (talk) 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The ANG as a whole is not assigned to any one Majcom. Individual units are assigned to various Majcoms where needed. The Majcoms are then responsible for overseeing the training of the ANG units. This policy was established by McNamara in the early 60's. Gatr (talk) 16:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

ANG flying units in every US state?

Are there ANG flying units in every US state? I seem to remember that some states lost their flying units or possibly even lost all units in the last round of base closures and unit deactivations.--TGC55 (talk) 02:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Asterisks?

What do the asterisks on the left side of the conflicts mean?--Ricky id (talk) 14:19, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Overview

I found this article was slightly confusing and didn't really enlighten me as to the who/what/why of the ANG. Most of the other National Guard type U.S services seem to explain it better to somebody not from the U.S with little contextual knowledge. Could somebody with a bit of knowledge on the topic please at least fix up the opening statement on this article? After all we don't want air forces (the coolest type of military force) being under-represented :) Gracias La Suricata de vuelo de España (talk) 14:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Suggested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Strong consensus against further disambiguation.-- Staberinde (talk) 10:36, 10 February 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)


Air National Guard → ? – The name should be either "Air National Guard of the United States" or "United States Air National Guard", let's discuss which is better. Funandtrvl (talk) 20:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Note that Commons has it as Commons:Category:United States Air National Guard. --Funandtrvl (talk) 20:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose According to the official website it's called "Air National Guard". Without any evidence that disambiguation is needed, it shouldn't be moved. Armbrust The Homunculus 20:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
The article title, as is, is too "USA-centric". Not everyone reading the title will think of the USA first, as the country of which the division is from. --Funandtrvl (talk) 20:33, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
Of course its USA centric. The only entity called the "Air National Guard" is in the USA. —  AjaxSmack  21:59, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
It should be added that the title "Air National Guard of the United States" would imply that the ANG is a federal organization. This is not the case, as the National Guard are state militia units. Bwmoll3 (talk) 01:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - this is a solution in search of a problem. No other articles with the same title, there is no reason to disambiguate this one. Parsecboy (talk) 23:22, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
    Comment I think this nomination was made due to this CFD nomination. Armbrust The Homunculus 23:47, 2 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Speaking as a member of the disambiguation project, it would be incorrect to have a disambiguation page at this title absent evidence of other subjects being regularly referred to as "Air National Guard". Absent such evidence, the title would either be a red link (which would serve no one) or a redirect to the current content at another title, which would be a meaningless change. bd2412 T 00:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Nicaragua had an Air National Guard. -- 65.92.180.137 (talk) 00:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
    • The Nicaraguan Air Force doesn't even have it's own article, let alone its reserve component. If and when that article is created, it should be at Air National Guard (Nicaragua);, with a hatnote on this article. Until then, we don't disambiguate preemptively. Parsecboy (talk) 02:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
      • The very extensive National Guard (Nicaragua) article does not mention "Air National Guard". It uses the term Fuerza Aérea de La Guardia Nacional (i.e., "Air Force of the National Guard"). —  AjaxSmack  04:18, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Also Strongly Oppose It ain't broke don't fix it; i.e. this proposed move serves no purpose. "United States Air National Guard" makes it sound as if it were one of the five branches of the Armed Forces of the United States. It is known thoughout the United States as the "Air National Guard". If another nation has an air national guard then let the other articles be titled on the style of "Air National Guard (Nicaragua)" Cuprum17 (talk) 01:27, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Unnecessary disambiguation. Marcus Qwertyus (talk) 03:55, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - again per Ajax Smack, and even more clear for this one than Talk:Army National Guard. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - The Air National Guard of the United States receives personnel from the Air National Guard. Neovu79 (talk) 04:54, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The move would cause unnecessary disambiguation. There are not other articles in Wikipedia with "Air National Guard", so this move serves no purpose. Steel1943 (talk) 05:17, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose this is wacky. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:39, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Call the page what the organization calls itself.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 20:04, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. The article already uses the common name of the organization, it is also its formal name. The Nicaraguan organization's formal name is Fuerza Aérea de La Guardia Nacional and its common name is probably its spanish common name.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:47, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose, per almost all of the above. GregJackP Boomer! 12:28, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose, per above. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:31, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose not needed. Hot Stop (Talk) 06:12, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Air National Guard of the United States

I posted this on User talk:71.164.248.248 prior to reverting the editors last edit: 

Ref: See: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/12107  
10 USC § 12107  describes the enlistment requirements for individuals joining the National Guard (either Army of Air Force).  When a unit is federalized by order of the President, it is gained by the Major Command of the United States Air Force, and becomes part of the active-duty USAF.

If you have a reference that states that a unit federalized becomes a part of the "Air National Guard of the United States" please provide it. Bwmoll3 (talk) 11:46, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

You didn't pull the right section. 12107 deals with enlistment. 10 USC 10111 states "The Air National Guard of the United States is the reserve component of the Air Force..." Other refs are [1] [2] [3] [4] in newspapers, [5] [6], [7] manual for court martial, [8] national guard net, and over 717,000 hits on google.
--71.164.248.248 (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, now where in all of this blizzard of references does it state that "if federalized by order of the President of the United States, they become an active part of the Air National Guard of the United States which is a reserve component of United States Air Force". Please..  :) Bwmoll3 (talk) 16:05, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
Presidential right to call the National Guard in to federal service is covered in 10 USC Chapter 1211. Neovu79 (talk) 22:02, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
And they become part of the United States Air Force. The units are gained by the various major commands. There is no "United States Air National Guard". Who is it's commander? Where is it headquarters at? Where in the chain of command is it? Bwmoll3 (talk) 04:10, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Except for the fact that we have shown you statute after statute, I would go over it again, but it appears to be a case of WP:IDHT. Before you revert again, get some consensus. Right now it is only you that is arguing for removal. As to your other questions, Air National Guard units report to LtGen Sid Clarke at the Pentagon. Clarke reports to Gen Frank Grass, Chief NGB & member of the Joint Chiefs. Grass reports to SecDef & the President. It's also not the "United States Air National Guard" -- the statute clearly states it is the "Air National Guard of the United States." 71.164.248.248 (talk) 05:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Now where does it say that "...if federalized by order of the President of the United States, they become an active part of the Air National Guard of the United States which is a reserve component of United States Air Force..." Bwmoll3 (talk) 07:04, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The definition distinguishing between the Air Natinoal Guard and the Air National Guard of the United States can be found in 32 U.S.C. § 101. THe President's right to call the National Guard, which the Air National Guard is a part of, to federal service can be found in 10 U.S.C. § 12406. Neovu79 (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2013 (UTC)
A close reading of 10 USC § 10111 does not specify anything about status pre-or-post mobilization. It only talks about federal recognition, which is required to be part of the ANG in the first place. The title appears to be 'Air National Guard of the United States' though. Now, 71.164.248.248, I'm sure you're aware you're not contextualising the full story when you insist on saying ANG units report to the director for air (or whatever his exact title is) at the NGB. Their reporting and constitutional status is separate pre- and post- mobilization. As confirmed by Bwmoll3 and myself last year (can forward you the e-mail), before mobilization their commander-in-chief is the Governor of their state. Yes, the DoD with federal funding funds most of the costs, but they remain under state control, though the military departments of the states. Now under Title 10 and Title (34?) they may be mobilized in a variety of separate ways, after which their reporting status changes. If a unit is mobilized, they come under the direction of a major command. It's a bit messy and confusing, but technically you may both be right. However, should you wish to retain the wording "...if federalized by order of the President of the United States, they become an active part of the Air National Guard of the United States which is a reserve component of United States Air Force..." in any article, 71.164.248.248, you must cite it in accordance with WP:BURDEN - the person first inserting the statement has to cite it. Thus, please continue to search for exact references for what you mean, or, much better still, get the official language on post-mobilisation status of command and insert it. I would also encourage you to place your proposed text on the talk page here before inserting it in articles to avoid potential revert wars - we can work it out here, and I as an administrator am quite happy to play ringmaster Buckshot06 (talk) 08:52, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The NGB has no command authority over individual ANG units at any time, whether they are in state status or federalized. When they are mobilized, they are assigned to the "gaining" command, not the NGB. Major Commands publish orders in advance stating this. Typical language is "The following Air National Guard units, together with all assigned personnel, presently assigned to the state indicated, are ordered to extended active duty at location indicated, and reassigned to this command effective upon receipt of [mobilization order]. Concurrent with entry into active federal service. these units are further assigned as indicated." Extracted from Hq, Military Airlift Command Special Order G-69, 17 March 1977 (emphasis added). There have been some adjustments to the legal basis for the mobilization since then, but I do not believe they affect this particular provision. I would suggest that citations to the Statutes at Large, not the United States Code would be needed to show the change if anyone believes to the contrary.
Perhaps contributing to the confusion is that current AF practice is not to federalize ANG units, even when the whole unit's equipment and personnel is called up. Instead, the personnel and equipment are used to form a provisional expeditionary unit with the ANG unit being the "major force provider." When this happens, the ANG unit remains under state control and the expeditionary unit with the same number is a regular unit. An example would be the activation of the 104th Expeditionary Fighter Squadron at Ahmed Al Jabar AB, Kuwait on 3 October 2001 and assignment of the squadron to the 332d Expeditionary Fighter Group, while the 104th Fighter Squadron remained assigned to the 175th Operations Group at Warfield ANG Base, MD. --Lineagegeek (talk) 21:20, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
The Air National Guard of the United States is the title of a reserve component of the United States Air Force. Just like the United States Air Force Reserve is the title for a reserve component of the United States Air Force. The Air Force has two reserve components. Bwmoll3, I think you are literally taking the meaning out of it's context. :) I would say if you're looking for exact proof for it, I would say the U.S. Code of law is not easy reading and is open to interpretation. However, my understanding of this is, that the law was designed to destinguish between milita forces under the command of state governors between the milita forces under the command of the President. By calling the federally activated Air National Guard members as the Air National Guard of the United States which the definitions of them do state in law, it helps to destinguish who has command authority of those particular members, units, and/or forces. Neovu79 (talk) 20:24, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I rewrote the Air Force Reserve Command article, which states: "...Unlike the Air National Guard, the Air Force Reserve is strictly a "federal" reserve component under Title 10 USC. However, in combination with the Air National Guard, the Air Force Reserve comprises the other half of what is known as the Air Reserve Component (ARC) of the United States Air Force....." The distinguishment is quite clear.

Also, a few months ago, I re-wrote the Continental Air Command article, under with both the Air National Guard and the Air Force Reserve were assigned back in the 1950s and 1960s. ConAC was Discontinued in 1968 and replaced by the Air Force Reserve as a SOA.

ConAC was replaced for ANG issues by the Air National Guard Readiness Center at Andrews AFB. That is the Air Force SOA that liaises between the Department of the Air Force and the National Guard Bureau at the Pentagon and with the states on Air Force National Guard operational activities.

But irregardless, there is no Federal Air National Guard of the United States, or United States Air National Guard or however you want to phrase it. "Air National Guard" is the name used on the organization's website http://www.ang.af.mil ; the ANG are state militia units that are coordinated by Air Force officers at the National Guard Bureau. They are considered reserve units by the Air Force and they are the air components of each state national guard; the state militia under the Governor. If ordered by the President of the United States to be "federalized" they become part of the major commands they are operationally gained by.

For example, the Alabama ANG 117th Air Refueling Wing would become a wing of Air Mobility Command; the 187th Fighter Wing, also part of the Alabama ANG is gained by Ninth Air Force, Air Combat Command.. the units that are committed to Homeland Defense (Air Defense) would be assigned to First Air Force, ACC... and that works with NORAD... They just come under the chain of command like the other active duty wings.. that's basically how it works :) Bwmoll3 (talk) 00:27, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Oh I understand how operational commands work. The First Air Force is primarily comprised of Air National Guard support wings and fighter wings. What my point is, that when Air National Guard members are not in federal status, the President has no authority over those forces. Then maybe there should be should be something that states that their status changes when they are or are not ferderalized. 10 U.S.C. § 12403 states that "(m)embers of the Air National Guard of the United States ordered to active duty shall be ordered to duty as Reserves of the Air Force." For example, MajGen William H. Etter for his appointment to lieutenant general as shown here. He is of course an Air National Guard officer but being appointed to to serve as the commander of First Air First which as you already know is an active-duty position. He is also currently already in federal service while serving as assistant to the chairman, joint chiefs of staff for National Guard matters, Joint Staff, under the status of Reserve of the Air Force. Neovu79 (talk) 04:50, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
" What my point is, that when Air National Guard members are not in federal status, the President has no authority over those forces. Then maybe there should be should be something that states that their status changes when they are or are not ferderalized. " That's actually their normal condition. They're under state control under the office of the state Adjutant General's office. The last time ANG units were federalized was during Desert Storm.
" 10 U.S.C. § 12403 states that "(m)embers of the Air National Guard of the United States ordered to active duty shall be ordered to duty as Reserves of the Air Force." " OK, I think this is where there is some confusion. The ANG is considered to be a reserve component of the AF just as the Air Force Reserve is. But they aren't federal units, they're state units.
First Air Force is the vehicle the AF set up in the late 1980s when the Air Defense Mission was assigned to the ANG and TAC shut down ADTAC. First AF is also a component of NORAD (CONR-AFNORTH), and it's also part of the unified Air Forces Northern. So having an ANG officer assigned as commander isn't surprising as that's part of the Total Force Concept. But that doesn't make the ANG a federal organization, i.e. "United States Air National Guard"... Bwmoll3 (talk) 20:37, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Then my question is, why would federal law distinguish between federalized and nonfederalized Air National Guard members (Air National Guard and Air National Guard of the United States). The conclusion that I draw from the laws are so there would not be a further power struggle over National Guard forces between the President and state governors. In the past 10+ years, it has become even more apparent over National Guard forces as shown in here and here. So, I believe the distinction between Air National Guard vs. Air National Guard of the United States is to make sure that the President could not take control of all National Guard units, in order to prevent further backlash from state governor's claims over their state's National Guard. Neovu79 (talk) 21:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Political power struggles between the DoD and the NG aren't anything new. In the 1950s and 1960s, the AF wanted to incorporate the ANG into the Air Force Reserve. Lots of hearings in Congress about it, in the end it didn't happen as the states used their Congressional power to stop it. What did happen is that the AF Reserve became exclusively airlift units and the ANG became Fighter/Tanker units. That didn't change until after the cold war ended. Occasionally the AF stopped funding an ANG unit and it gets inactivated. That may happen more in the future as money gets tight in the DoD. But none of this changes the relationship between the AF, ANG and AFRES. Bwmoll3 (talk) 02:23, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
Let's try this. Is there an entity titled the Air National Guard of the United States (ANGUS)? Yes. Is the Air National Guard of the United States an establishment, organization, or unit to which other units can be assigned? No. For an example of where the ANGUS comes in, officers are not only commissioned by their governor, they are comissioned in the ANGUS and that rank is the one they hold when they are federalized. That does not mean they are assigned to the "ANGUS" whether or not their unit of assignment is federalized or not. There are also militia units that are not part of the ANGUS. The 4th Air Wing of the Texas State Guard is located at Camp Mabry and has the 401st (Camp Mabry), 436th (Carswell Field), 447th (Ellington Field), and 449th (Lackland AFB) Air Support Groups assigned. The term "assigned" also has some ambiguity in ANG context. Prior to the implementation of the Objective Wing in the ANG in the mid-1990s, it was common to have flying groups assigned to wings that were located in a different state. So although the (unfederalized) 104th Tactical Fighter Group was assigned to the 103d wing of Connecticut Air National Guard until 1957, afterwards it was assigned at various times to the 102d Tactical Fighter Wing of the Massachusetts Air National Guard, the 108th Tactical Fighter Wing of the New Jersey Air National Guard or the 174th Tactical Fighter Wing of the New York Air National Guard, although remaining in CT.--Lineagegeek (talk) 23:30, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

State Air Guard unit lists

To the extent that https://www.af.mil/AF-Sites/srViewSite/1842/ might be considered authoritative, it would be desirable to have the various State Air Guard pages unit lists updated, some of them seem out-of-date as there have been various changes since they were last touched. I don't personally have time (or interest) for 50-odd page updates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.95.87.52 (talk) 03:30, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

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