Talk:Acoma Pueblo/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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Parenthetical remark: Here I see the utility of the parenthetical AKA in other languages. I'm not opposed to the whole idea when it's used correctly, as I believe it is here. I would value any other input you have, Node, as you clearly have pretty good knowledge of Native culture and language. --ABQCat 01:27, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  1. Is the Keresan of the Acoma the same as Western Keresan?
  2. Was there contact between the Zuni and the Acoma? Trading for example? Otherwise it seems silly to include as an AKA.
--ABQCat 02:07, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
  1. In a way it is ("Western Keresan" is more inclusive): Western Keresan refers to the Keresan spoken at Acoma (Ako), Laguna (Kawaika), as well as a few unrecognised pueblos, and Eastern Keresan refers to the Keresan of Cochiti (Kotyit), San Felipe (Katstya), Santa Ana (Tamaiya), Santo Domingo (called Kyiwa by locals, called Tyiwa by other Eastern Keresan speakers), and Zia (Tsi'ya). I'm not sure if the people are actually different, but I know their languages are significantly different.
  2. Yes, there are trade contacts as noted by brian0918. --Node 04:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
1: Western Keresan was spoken at Acoma and Laguna , and Eastern Keresan, at San Felipe , Santa Ana , Sia, Cochiti, and Santo Domingo.
2: It appears that they did trade, across the appropriately-named Zuni-Acoma Trail. --[[User:Brian0918|brian0918 talk]] 02:33, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'VE BEEN HERE!!! I'd like to include a bit more on history rather than just general culture here. History under the spanish, etc, trade with other pueblos, possible origins. What are the likely anthropological origins of the Acoma etc. As far as culture, the pueblo's religion and cultural myths along with some information on famous ceremonies (not private ceremonies, clearly) would be interesting. That's where I'm going with this, and if anyone else has information on those lines, it would be great if you could add it. --ABQCat 21:11, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I went there once last summer or the year before, and had a really informative tour, but about all I remember is their "hand-sign-language" for what I think was the word "respect", but I'm not sure. I also recall (if I'm remembering correctly) that they used the same word to represent "mother" as "grandmother" and possibly even "aunt" or "sister". I might still have some of the pamphlets from there; I'll check when I can later this week. --[[User:Brian0918|brian0918 talk]] 23:16, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For future inclusion (should find a few more sources for a more balanced take on the information), I found a bit more information on history and culture of the Acoma. I'll work towards including some of the information in the article.
--ABQCat 04:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There needs to be a discussion on Don Juan de Oñate, and his conquest of New Mexico. It is disrespectful the the Acoma people to not include this vital juncture of their history and the atrocities they faced in the midst of it.

More sources:
I have access to these books, but you can look for them too :)
  • Rabasa, José. Aesthetics of Colonial Violence: The Massacre of Acoma in Gaspar de Villagra's Historia de la Nueva Mexico. Writing violence on the northern frontier : the historiography of sixteenth century New Mexico and Florida and the legacy of conquest.
21 pages of information. Examines Villagra's account of the massacre.
  • The green book of language revitalization in practice / edited by Leanne Hinton and Ken Hale. San Diego : Academic Press, 2001.
Chapter titled: Native Language Planning: A Pilot Process in the Acoma Pueblo Community, pp 63-74.
  • Sedgwick, Mrs. William T. Acoma, the sky city; a study in Pueblo-Indian history and civilization.
History, Antiquities.
  • Minge, Ward Alan. Ácoma : pueblo in the sky. 1991.
History, Land Tenure.
  • Seymour, Tryntje Van Ness. Acoma / text and photographs by Tryntje Van Ness Seymour. Salisbury, Conn. : Lime Rock Press, 1979.
"One hundred copies ... published ... consisting of seventy-five copies of the Regular Edition, numbered 1 to 75, and twenty-five copies of the Deluxe Edition, numbered I to XXV."
  • James, H. L. Acoma, people of the white rock. West Chester, Pa. : Schiffer Publishing, c1988.
  • Nabokov, Peter. Architecture of Acoma Pueblo : the 1934 Historic American Buildings Survey project. Santa Fe, N.M. : Ancient City Press, c1986. 137 p. : ill., plans.
  • Paytiamo, James. Flaming Arrow's people. New York City, Duffield and Green [c1932].
by an Acoma Indian, James Paytiamo; with drawings by the author
  • Stirling, Matthew Williams. Origin myth of Acoma, and other records. Washington, U.S. Govt. print. off., 1942.
  • White, Leslie A. New material from Acoma. Washington, D.C. : Govt. Print. Off., 1943.
Other information:
--[[User:Brian0918|brian0918 talk]] 13:52, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

To add

Information about the Jewish tribal governor, Don Solomono.[1] Badagnani (talk) 07:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup and rewrite article

This article has multiple issues:

  • Much of it is poorly and confusingly written.
  • There's a good deal of misinformation -- for example "Acoma seed pot. Seeds were stored inside, and the pots broken as needed." First, this isn't a seed pot, but a tourist sort-of replica (no hole!). Second, real seed pots weren't broken.
  • etc etc.

Anyway, it's on my list, but it may be a while.... --Pete Tillman (talk) 04:08, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

More Photos

Upload any PD or properly licensed photos you can find and link them here for now.

  • Illustration of Sky City from 1846
    Illustration of Sky City from 1846
  • Acoma Pueblo, 1899.
    Acoma Pueblo, 1899.
  • Acoma Church, corner view showing mostly left wall.
    Acoma Church, corner view showing mostly left wall.
  • Acoma Church, side wall and tower with cross.
    Acoma Church, side wall and tower with cross.
  • Looking across street toward houses.
    Looking across street toward houses.
  • Pottery in the interior of an Acoma dwelling.
    Pottery in the interior of an Acoma dwelling.

Old public domain photos

I would like to draw attention to this rather nice shot of the Governor and Sheriff in 1886:

There is good sourcing for the photograph on the Commons image page. --Fæ (talk) 23:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you perceiving a lack of photos in the article? BMK (talk) 01:37, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

"Only"

A respected editor has reinserted "only" as an adjective for emphasizing Wikipedia's position that more land should have been reserved. Actually, Wikipedia does not officially care one way or another whether it was 100% or 0%. It simply reports and does not qualify figures. "Only" implies "too little." This is a position that an encyclopedia should not take. Let the reader be the judge. We should not be "leading" the reader. That is a job that the media willingly undertakes and distinguishes us from them.

Consider that someone could replace "only" will "still" as if too much were reserved. That would also spin the article to little avail. Student7 (talk) 15:50, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

"Only" is not a POV word. It makes no kind of judgement on the state of the pueblo's land, simply states facts. "John had 30 apples, but only 16 remain" - how does that make a judgment on the 14 missing apples, or on whether John should not have lost or ate or given away the other 14? It doesn't, and neither does the statement in the article. BMK (talk) 02:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
It's judgmental and assumes that John "should" have more apples. Or that 30 was "too many" and he was justly deprived of them. An non-judgmental version of this is. "John had 30 apples on 20 February. On 25 February he had 16 apples." There is no judgment here about loss or gain (by someone else). As an encyclopedia, we leave it up to the reader to determine the rightness or wrongness of John's collection of apples. We don't "lead" the reader. That is a function the media assumes and we omit. The difference between us and them. Student7 (talk) 16:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Another point. While the wording "only" seems to imply that the Acomans were gypped out of 90% of their land, I suspect, in fact, that the reverse was true. They did not need this extra land which required paved roads (for tourists, their major business), culverts, bridges, game wardens, etc. I suspect it was a nuisance to maintain, and expensive. They kept the "core" part of their land and let the state take over the rest (and maintain it). Student7 (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Please read WP:POINT.BMK (talk) 15:50, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
1) Can you not understand the WP:BIAS in either adjective?
2)I think my analysis of their "loss" of land is close to the truth. A handful of natives just cannot tax themselves sufficiently to maintain miles of roadway, culverts, bridges, nature preserve, etc. They were probably happy to have the county or state do it.
3)Why is "still" more biased than "only"? Student7 (talk) 22:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
"For a limited time only, the price is only $44.98"
Really negative vibe there, huh? I'm surprised all those retailers and TV pitchmen haven't realized yet that you've declared "only" to be an entirely negative word. Guess you'd better get the message out to them soon, wouldn't want the American economy to end up in the crapper. BMK (talk) 22:08, 25 March 2015 (UTC) BMK (talk) 22:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Tertiary sources

Most of the citations in the article are taken from A Native American Encyclopedia (in Google). While WP:TERTIARY sources are allowed in Wikipedia, they are discouraged. We are supposed to find the secondary sources from which these figures are taken and use those instead. We have a single claim of 5,000,000 acres as the "original" land holding of the Acoma. There is nothing to indicate that anywhere else except in Mirror, or citations derived from this single publication. Student7 (talk) 16:45, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

What, exactly, is your personal beef against the Acoma that you spend this amount of time trying to diminish this article? Perhaps you shopuld realize that your POV is getting in the way, and edit other article instead, where you can be neutral. BMK (talk) 20:57, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
BTW you are incorrect when you write that tertiary sources are "discouraged". Here is the direct quote from WP:TERTIARY:

Policy: Reliable tertiary sources can be helpful in providing broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources, and may be helpful in evaluating due weight, especially when primary or secondary sources contradict each other. Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others.

The only note of "discouragement" there is that "some tertiary sources are more reliable than others", but that is true of primary and secondary sources as well.
You appear to be grasping at straws. BMK (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

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