Talk:2017 FFA Cup preliminary rounds

Entry numbers and Schedule

State	2017 Teams	2016 Teams	Increase/Decrease
ACT	20	19	↑ 1
NSW	147	130	↑ 17
NNSW	83	81	↑ 2
NT	13	14	1 ↓
QLD	124	124	↑ 0 ↓
SA	42	39	↑ 3
TAS	20	19	↑ 1
VIC	217	202	↑ 15
WA	58	65	7 ↓
A-League	10	10	= 0
NPL Champion	1 (Sydney United 58)	1 (Blacktown City)	= 0
Total	735	704	↑ 31

@SuperJew, Matilda Maniac, and TinTin: Fellow dweebs, we have another typical issue. The fixtures show 737 entrants and the numbers shown above currently show 735. Let's be honest, it's probably NNSW who is out again. I'm going to start tallying up exactly the numbers of each member federation, starting with the easiest ones. Hopefully this shit will be sorted soon. ACT is 20. SA is 42. TAS is 20. NT is 13 - J man708 (talk) 08:47, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

You have my utter confidence and trust on this one! 😊 --SuperJew (talk) 08:49, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Feel like calculating a state for me? Hahaha. - J man708 (talk) 08:55, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Just a quick question. Does this include Alice Springs / Central Australia? I haven't seen any of their format/rosters anywhere but maybe you have seen a total number of entrants from that sub-zone and included them that way? --TinTin (talk) 22:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah dude. I can't remember where abouts it was, but I'm pretty sure it was confirmed at 4... (You've got me second guessing now!) - J man708 (talk) 09:04, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

I found the full FFNT including Norzone and Southzone here:http://www.footballnt.com.au/pages/Westfield-FFA-CUP-2017.html TinTin (talk)

Awesome work. Now to slowly chip at the larger member federations... - J man708 (talk) 09:28, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

I think it is probably a miscalculation/assumption about NNSW either in Round 4 or Round 5, and there's going to be 2 more byes than are currently listed. So I think 735 is correct. I've double-checked number of losers for NSW, NNSW, Qld, Vic and WA, and cannot find an error there. Matilda Maniac (talk) 12:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the issue. Thankfully the NNSW uses the most easy to follow system... - J man708 (talk) 04:05, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Schedule

as per last year, the scheduled dates need to be referenced. Two sets of dates are already published, but the generic reference to the FFA Cup Website is not relevant here yet. Matilda Maniac (talk) 15:28, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Round 5 and 6 Formats

any references for all the detail currently in Round 5 and Round 6 for Queensland, or it is just unannounced supposition based on last year's format ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 15:32, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Based on last year's, seeing as competitions such as the Champions League pages show the previous year's format until a new one is announced. - J man708 (talk) 23:50, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

then I think a message box along the lines of what's currently shown at 2017 AFC Champions League is appropriate for now. Matilda Maniac (talk) 02:00, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Round 4 Matches

Seriously, you're inventing Round 4 now ! Why not wait until January when teams apply, team numbers are finalised, and format is actually ANNOUNCED ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 14:31, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm just doing what happens on pages such as the Champions League, where the previous year's setup is utilised. - J man708 (talk) 17:38, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

There is a clear difference between AFC and UEFA Champions League, where most teams are known well in advance, and FFA Cup where entries dont even close until January. AFC Champions League - for example - does not fill in the preliminary round details (about 10% of the article) until the structure is announced. This article at the moment has 80% of the article based on what is largely speculation from last year's event. (292 matches). I think Round 7 could be argued to be fair enough, but not the earlier rounds in general. You have 13 WA NPL entrants coming in this round, and that is unknown.

It is fair enough to add the details for those federations that have announced their formats, but that is only three of them so far. I may try this evening to make an alternative in my Sandbox. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:31, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

If we have Round 7, then Round 6 directly leads into it, with Round 5 into that. Round 5 is the last round where teams enter (barring the A-League, of course). Fair enough questioning Round 4, but Rounds 5, 6 and 7 are pretty set. I've just added in the round where most of the NPL clubs enter (barring SA and QLD), which hadn't changed between 2015 and 2016. Thus far, the three states who have already announced their setups haven't changed much, anyway. - J man708 (talk) 06:58, 11 December 2016 (UTC)

Evolving structure of 2017 rounds over the next month

• I disagree with adding information for Round 4, Round 5 and Round 6 for 2017 where member federations have not yet released any information, and to have the majority of the article (>50%) based on the supposition that it will be like the 2016 event is far too much for me. I helped build the 2015 and 2016 articles, and they were added to as information (able to be referenced) was sourced - largely from member federation websites. This was mainly in the month of January.
• I am proposing to change the Round 4, Round 5 and Round 6 information to that which is able to be referenced (Currently mainly NSW and Victoria), and add the earlier rounds in the same format (for Victoria).
• I have generated a temporary site : User:Matilda Maniac/2017 FFA Cup Qualifiers So Far - and welcome your comments to what I'm proposing to add - in this section of the Talk Page. Matilda Maniac (talk) 16:22, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

If you really want to get rid of it, then do so. I'm not going to fight it if you really want to see it gone. I just placed it there like last year's as a placeholder with the previous season's info on it. - J man708 (talk) 15:04, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Format - Queensland regional

Queensland may be moving from their 8 regional competitions into three broader zones - Queensland FFA applications Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

I read the link. I think the broader zones it refers to are the North Queensland, SE Queensland and Brisbane Zones that have been used for the previous years. It doesn't say anything about the sub-zones within those three zones no longer being used. So I think it's more of the same. --TinTin (talk) 22:20, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Sunshine Coast info being processed later on tonight and the first lot of info should be available sometime tomorrow. - J man708 (talk) 04:32, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Format - Northern NSW

The recent edit which described TheFFACup.com.au lists NNSW North Coast as Round 1 and NNSW Far North Coast as Round 2 seems to me more likely that they just put different sections into different rounds in the fixtures list. The same website also has 19 ties between Undecided teams playing on Saturday 18th March as ROUND 3 (which looks like the rest of the ties that were drawn as Round 1). Now that's not going to work either for the southern pool unless they finish in Round 8. Hopefully the FFA Cup website is not using Wikipedia as a source ! All will be revealed in due course, but it makes Guessing the format (or applying the logic of what was done 2 years ago) very tenuous. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:10, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

The 19 ties, I feel could quite possibly be the 6 Northern Ties (from the Zone Semi Finals) and the 13 Southern Ties (the round where the NEW FM teams join); or could be there as a placeholder. The whole preliminary page is speculative, which is why I placed the Under Construction template on it. We all know each Member Federation will do their own shit, it's bureaucracy in a nutshell, really. As for the FFA Cup website using Wikipedia as a source, I seriously doubt that! They use the Sporting Pulse software setup, anyway. Sorry if I'm not explaining myself well today. - J man708 (talk) 22:59, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

their website updated with these Undecided teams playing on Saturday 18th March now as ROUND 2. Even Sporting Pulse seems to have trouble Guessing the format. Matilda Maniac (talk) 09:05, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Format - Tasmania

any reference for 19 teams from Tassie this year - @ Mr. 124.189.34.50 - or just speculating/hypothesizing ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't find anything. I looked at the normal places walterpless.com.au , sliceofcheese.net, footballfedtas.com.au and Tasmanian Football Central on Facebook which are probably the best sources of information for Tasmania and none of them have any information in relation to the Cup at this stage. --TinTin (talk) 02:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I called the FFT yesterday and it was implied that there are approx 19 teams, but it's still open and the draw is set to take place "later this week". - J man708 (talk) 12:59, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

EDIT @TinTin: @Matilda Maniac:, would you guys be open to the idea of us creating a talk page somewhere specifically for generally useful sources (like the aforementioned) for each member federation? I'm sure the two of you would have some rare sources for both Tasmania and Western Australia available? - J man708 (talk) 13:05, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Lots of good edits most of the time from Mr. 124.189.34.50, but a lot of what are WP:GF edits that cannot be verified, and unfortunately little feedback from Mr. 124.189.34.50 as to sources when questioned. I'm hoping this editor can also share some sources to minimise the potential for a possible revert on this and other similar articles. Matilda Maniac (talk) 15:43, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

I dont have any 'rare' WA sources: footballwa.net is sometimes useful (as are their associated blog pages), foowballwest.com.au website not good, but their Facebook and twitter sites provide more timely information. Matilda Maniac (talk) 15:43, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Same I wouldn't describe my Tas knowledge or sources as 'rare'. There are the four sources I listed above plus maybe the three local papers: The Hobart Mercury, The Launceston Examiner and North West Advocate if you want a complete source listing. As far as a 'new' talk page. I think it's unececary. I think generic chat is best listed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Australia task force, I think a new page, would just confuse things more. --TinTin (talk) 22:31, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

[the footballfedtas.com.au website article] describes the rest of the level 2 and level 3 teams as being seeded and having byes in the initial round, rather than entering in the following round. Matilda Maniac (talk) 11:19, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Good on Tasmania for implementing that. It's something I wish SA would do... - J man708 (talk) 21:21, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I think the FFT article is a bit misleading. The 12 teams (8 x NPL Tas and 4 top Nth, Sth Championship teams) weren't included in the draw for the round 3 matches. They won't be included until round 4. Therefore I would say despite FFT's description that this is entering in round 4, and not 12 byes for round. I think a bye requires a team to be entered in the draw or have played in a previous round. Neither of these apply to this situation, therefore I believe it is more accurate to say the 12 teams enter in round 4, than they had a bye in round 3. --TinTin (talk) 23:41, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree that what you are saying 'feels right'. What was announced though was different, and FFTs description that all these teams were part of the round is FFTs description. They are running the competition, and effectively wikipedia is just reporting on it, rather than molding the facts to suit what it should have been. Their description is of all teams being part of the round, then they were all seeded (based on some criterion), and the lowest seeds play, and the higher seeds have a bye to the next round - that is a legitimate outcome. It's less confusing than the NT Norzone last year, where 9 teams were in a round, 7 byes and 1 match, then pretty much simultaneous to the draw one of the playing team folded, so it was announced that all 8 teams had a bye to the next round. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:19, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm with TinTin. Also, wanted to point out that it's kinda the opposite to what happened to the Western Strikers from SA, where they were drawn to play in the round before where the rest of their league plays. - J man708 (talk) 01:51, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

For South Australia, Western Strikers were "pulled out of the State League 1 hat" [1] so all state league one teams were a part of the draw. Matilda Maniac (talk) 10:13, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't really agree with you Matilda. I am not basing it on 'feels right' I am basing my comment on a criteria as I spelled out that the 12 teams were not included in the draw for round 3 and have not been involved in anyway prior to round 4, so therefore they start at round 4. We aren't here to mindlessly reproduce FFA/FFA Member Federation content. Wikipedia is based on independent source and content. So while FFA/FFA Member Federation content is very useful and in many cases the most complete source of information, that doesn't mean we have to mindlessly reproduce it. Having said all that I can't be bothered having an edit war, so whatever may be, may be.--TinTin (talk) 02:11, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, I think we are here to 'mindfully' reproduce FFA/FFA Member Federation content, if there's nothing else available. Which is why I mentioned this issue in the first place, last Friday. Sorry to hear that the tone of my last post implied I was getting ready to have an edit war. I dont generally act that way. And I feel that unless there are other counter-arguments, moving these 12 teams into 'entering into Round 4' is at least consistent with the approach of most of the rest of the competition. Que sera sera. Matilda Maniac (talk) 04:08, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

The way the FFT worded it does make it sound like the 12 clubs have been seeded, as opposed to having byes. - User:J man708 (talk) 04:15, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

@TinTin: and @J man708: changes are  Done

Format WA

Aren't entries for Football West still open? Can a reference be provided please about the total numbers to prevent a possible revert ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 23:32, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Apparently 58 is the correct number, but no announcement yet from FW (apart from private Facebook discussions). Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:48, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

announced...sort of [2]. Matilda Maniac (talk) 08:01, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Format ACT

Any reference for Round 4 being 16 teams with NPL teams entering at that stage, or is this informed speculation based upon last year's format ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Based on last year's, seeing as how each state federation used the same setup as the previous year, anyway. I was looking at trying to get the fixture numbers sorted, ideally. Also, welcome back from North Korea. - J man708 (talk) 04:22, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

So is there a reference for confirming 19 teams from Capital Football federation ? nothing on their website or facebook as yet ? Matilda Maniac (talk) 05:56, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Format NT-Darwin

There is a photo of the FFNT-Norzone (Darwin) draw on the FFNT Facebook page. There is a photo gallery of a draw event they conducted. The format is a bit different to previous years and is a bit localised (ie. not using the proper national round numbers etc.), so I am trying to work out how it fits into the national 7 preliminary rounds before I try and add it. Link is here: https://scontent.fmel1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/17434774_1421512224566371_464223596601994916_o.jpg?oh=12246be7528682c4ba65cbf468dac2d0&oe=594D8D0E

I couldn't see anything about the Alice Springs / FICA draw.

--TinTin (talk) 03:28, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey @TinTin:, they've done the same thing with SA, where the Rounds have been shown as Round 1, Round 2, etc. rather than what they should be. The FFA website fixes these errors and shows them where they should be. In short, you've done it correctly, dude. - J man708 (talk) 04:27, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

--Thanks for the double check. The use of the bye in the fifth round confused me a bit but I just plugged it all into a spreadsheet so it way laid out in a more logical way. --TinTin (talk) 04:31, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

It surprised me aswell, tbh. That's a very NNSW way of them utilising a bye, rather than as early as possible, like all the other member federations. - J man708 (talk) 17:00, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

@J man708: Yeah very NNSW! I don't know why, with 9 teams in Darwin sub-zone, they didn't just have one match in round 3, with the majority of teams (7 clubs) starting in round 4, with a straight knockout format from there (ie. a Darwin Semi Final and Final in rounds 5 and 6 before playing against the Alice Springs team in round 7). Oh well, if it keeps the locals happy! --TinTin (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Incorrect - not NNSW- its just very Top End. This structure means theres a FFA Cup Qualifier game once a week, every week; might be good for media, for crowds. Odd, but effective. Matilda Maniac (talk) 23:37, 29 March 2017 (UTC)