Talk:1907 Tiflis bank robbery/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: Arctic Night 13:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I am going to review this article for GA status. I will make some general comments here and provide an adjudication at the end. Arctic Night 13:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lead - All comments have been addressed

The image should have some alt text. See the link for information about how to do this (although I suspect that the nominator already does know!).

Done. Remember (talk) 23:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note: alt text is neither a GA requirement nor an FA requirement, please read WP:GACR and review against the criteria only. Jezhotwells (talk) 00:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article is brilliant. Alt text just makes it even more so. This was a more general suggestion, not a requirement for passing GA. Arctic Night 01:02, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The word 'exceptionally' in the lead smacks of WP:PEACOCK. I would suggest changing it to something else.

Done. Remember (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The brief overview of what happened during the robbery in the lead is out of order. The overview goes something like this: "The robbers attacked the stagecoach. A lot of people died. The robbers attacked the stagecoach using bombs and guns." I think you can see the problem there!

Done. Remember (talk) 17:09, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Background - All comments have been addressed

This section is well-written, and I couldn't spot any grammar or flow issues. However, I would say that this section is a little long. Most of the information in that section belongs in other articles, and I would suggest that editors go through the section and decide which pieces of information are vitally necessary to the article.

I shortened this section to what I think is vital. Let me know if you have any other thoughts. Remember (talk) 14:33, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Preparation- All comments have been addressed

Stalin said that Kamo was "a master of disguise" - a reference should be placed directly after the quote.

I am confused why this is not over-referencing and other situations are over-referencing, but I am happy to put a reference after this quotation. Remember (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Because he worked in the Tiflis banking mail office..." - sentences should not begin with the word 'because'.

I have revised the sentence, but I like the original wording better. I am not sure why you believe that sentences should not begin with the word because. It is an acceptable way to begin a sentence. See this. Are you saying that this is against wikipedia style or that you think it is sloppy writing? Remember (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Conspirators took over a tavern..." - a definite article needs to go before the word 'conspirators' I think.

Done. Remember (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Once that carriage..." - The carriage is not mentioned anywhere in the paragraph. What carriage?

Revised. Remember (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Ekaterina Svanidze, Stalin's wife, was standing on a balcony at their home near the square with her family and young child.[26] When they heard the explosions, they rushed, terrified into the house.[26]" - a reference doesn't need to come after every sentence. After the second sentence is sufficient - in fact, this point applies to a number of statements throughout the article. When you reference, you might only require one reference for an entire paragraph, but in this article, the same reference appears sentence after sentence on many occasions.

I am not so sure of this rule. Is there a wikipedia style guide section on this issue because I have been taught in some cases to provide citations for every assertion and do not really see a problem with "over-citation." But I am happy to revise if this is what the style is. Before I do revise this, I would like to understand the rule so that I don't delete and references that need to be there. Remember (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In the final paragraph of the 'attack' section, editors would do well to use some conjunctions for flow. It is disruptive flow-wise to keep having short and choppy sentences.

I have revised this section. Let me know if you think it needs to be revised further. Remember (talk) 14:46, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"[t]he role played by Stalin in the activities of the Kamo group was subsequently exaggerated" - needs a reference as it is a direct quote.

Revised. Remember (talk) 14:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Security response and investigation- All comments have been addressed

"According to Roman Brackman's The Secret File of Joseph Stalin: A Hidden Life, several days after the robbery the Okhrana agent Mukhtarov questioned Stalin about the robbery in a secret apartment.[21] The agents had heard rumors that Stalin had been seen watching passively during the robbery.[21] Mukhtarov asked Stalin why he hadn't informed them about the robbery, but Stalin stated that he had provided adequate information to the authorities to prevent the theft.[21] This questioning escalated into a heated argument; Mukhtarov hit Stalin in the face and had to be restrained by other Okhrana officers.[21] After this incident, Muktarov was suspended from Okhrana, and Stalin was ordered to leave Tiflis and go to Baku to await a decision from officials regarding the case.[21] Stalin left Baku along with 20,000 rubles in stolen money in July 1907.[21]"

This is blatant over-referencing. A reference doesn't need to come every sentence if the reference is exactly the same - put the reference at the end of the statement supported by it!

Before I do revise the referencing in the article to delete some of the citations, I would like to understand the rule so that I don't delete any references that need to be there. Could you please direct me where in the style guide it discusses this issue. Remember (talk) 14:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Captures and trials of Kamo- All comments have been addressed

"Kamo escaped from the psychiatric ward of the Tiflis prison..." - what Tiflis prison? This is never mentioned before this statement.

Revised. Remember (talk)

"a "rupture had occurred"" - as this is a direct quote, it needs a reference immediately after it.

Revised. Remember (talk) 18:12, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Cashing the marked notes- All comments have been addressed

"Soonafter" -> soon after.

Revised. Remember (talk) 18:12, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Referencing- All comments have been addressed

Editors need to ensure that over-referencing, as evidenced above, is not practiced in this article. Get rid of all the unnecessary referencing!

Before I do revise the referencing in the article to delete some of the citations, I would like to understand the rule so that I don't delete any references that need to be there. Could you please direct me where in the style guide it discusses this issue. Remember (talk) 14:53, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your references are spread over 'references' and 'bibliography'. Ideally, page references would be in 'references', and 'bibliography' would house the actual citations. At present, the actual citations are mixed in with the page references.

Ok. I think I have fixed all of this. Let me know if I need to do anything else.

General comments- All comments have been addressed This is a good article, although it needs a little bit of work before it can progress to Good Article status. I am putting this article on hold for seven days, after which this article will be failed. Editors have until February 3, 2011 to fix all of the issues I have raised here. If the article has not been fixed by then, the article will be failed, and editors will need to submit the article through the Good Article nomination process again once they feel that the article is ready. Arctic Night 16:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I will make the changes as soon as I can (unfortunately my real work has gotten very hectic so we will see how fast I can do this. Remember (talk) 17:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'd like to say that although my comments might seem a little much, this is a very good article that will be truly deserving of GA status when it undoubtedly gets there. I hope that makes up for some of my comments that may have made you think otherwise!! Arctic Night 23:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the praise. Your comments are fine. I am happy to make any revisions necessary to make this the best article possible. Thank you for all of your hard work and any other suggestions that you have are welcome. Remember (talk) 14:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have gone through and revised everything mentioned above. The only thing that I have not done is remove the over-referencing. I would like to discuss what the rule is before I undertake this task because I don't want to remove a bunch of citation that should be there. Remember (talk) 13:03, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

While Wikipedia:Citation overkill deals with this issue, it is only an 'essay' and not a policy or guideline. Template:Too many references is the same. WP:CITEBUNDLE is from a guideline and highlights the issues associated with over-referencing. In fact, while I doubt over-referencing is against any policy or guideline, it makes the article less readable. I would say that if you have one source for an entire paragraph, use it at the end. If you have two sources for one paragraph, use both throughout the paragraph. Arctic Night 15:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I will revise the article with that standard in mind. Any other thoughts or suggestions are always welcome. Remember (talk) 15:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't got any at present - once the over-referencing issue is dealt with, I'm ready to immediately promote this article to GA status. Arctic Night 16:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. Then I will try to complete that as soon as possible. Once again work is very busy so it may take me a little while, but I am working on it. Remember (talk) 19:13, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Overreferencing[edit]

Ok. Revised the first two sections. Will try to do the other sections when I can. Let me know if the referencing of the first two sections now works for you. Remember (talk) 13:09, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. I have reviewed all of the sections. Many of the remaining cites can't be pruned because they support two separate assertions in one sentence. Let me know if you think there are any other citation problems to fix, and I will look into it. Remember (talk) 23:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA passed. Arctic Night 22:31, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source Problems[edit]

According to Checklinks], source #32 is coming up as a 404. The source listed as "Kamo-the Legendary Old Bolshevik of the Caucasus" is coming up as "Journal subscription required". These should be changed if possible. - Neutralhomer • Talk • 19:54, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will check on the 404 source, but it is not mine. As for the Kamo source, there is a journal subscription required. Unfortunately, this article cannot be found in a free form on the internet. Remember (talk) 21:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the 404 link. Remember (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]