Wikipedia talk:Wiki Loves Pride/Archive 3

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Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3


Intersectionnal solidarity with #blacklivesmatter

I would like to propose adding a section of articles related to queer african americans out of solidarity with black lives matter. What do you think? Nattes à chat (talk) 17:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Nattes à chat, Do you mean adding a section of existing articles for editors to consider improving? I'm not exactly sure what you mean but I say be bold and we can all continue to discuss and make changes. --Another Believer (Talk) 19:18, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Nattes à chat,
See also: Wikipedia:WikiProject Black Lives Matter
---Another Believer (Talk) 16:24, 6 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes that's what I ws suggesting. I'm mostly active on the francophone and there are so many to translate.. Maybe we should however consider having a page with all projets in different languages on meta? There is another one here : https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Spring_2020/femWikiRAINBOW @Z.blace:

Plus someone posted this in the telegram group as ressource: https://thedeviantsarchive.org/. And I found this on the links between BLM and queerness : https://medium.com/national-center-for-institutional-diversity/hearing-the-queer-roots-of-black-lives-matter-2e69834a65cd Nattes à chat (talk) 15:25, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Template:Wiki Loves Pride talk

@Rcsprinter123: Thanks for creating Template:Wiki Loves Pride talk. I was actually going to ask someone to try to merge these template based on the Art+Feminism talk page template, so you checked this off my list! Does documentation on this page need to be updated? (There are instructions asking folks to add Template:Wiki Loves Pride 2020 appropriately.) ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:23, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Title Indicates Bias

Would a "Wiki loves Nazism" or Wiki loves domestic violence" campaign occur. If not, then the title of this campaign is a violation of WP:NOV as it indicates that wikipedia as an aggregate support the homosexuality in the marriage debate.Somua35 (talk) 19:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

*sigh* Every freakin' year... ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:16, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The project gets comments like this every year. The answer is the same: you can leave if you don't like it. Kingsif (talk) 23:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I merely wish confirmation from staff that Wikipedia is neutral on this issue, just like any other political or religious issue. Do I need to email a member of staff?Somua35 (talk) 19:28, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Sure, email away. *eye roll* ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
@Somua35: Here is literally Wikimedia's views on the matter. Basically: homophobia is wrong and will not be tolerated, and LGBT+ content will be promoted. I don't think there's much more to say. Kingsif (talk) 22:20, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
Note that I still defer to Another Believer's fabulous sarcasm, but maybe if you know the shocking truth that LGBT+ lives are not a political or religious issue you might even join Wiki Loves Pride to help! Kingsif (talk) 22:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Port Authority (film)

I just discovered this article Port Authority (film) after scouring articles for lists of LGBT filmmakers and making an article for its director. It sounds like an amazing film, and a lot of the sources at Danielle Lessovitz's article have some great detail on how it handles not fetishizing black bodies, trans bodies, and not commercializing drag culture. This is probably a great time to make this article much better quality. The only problem is, I haven't seen the film! So I thought I'd reach out and see if anyone has, and if they'd like to collaborate on it? Kingsif (talk) 04:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

LGBT in Star Trek

It has a large section on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Star_Trek#LGBT_in_Star_Trek

It is large enough to deserve it's own article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LoganBlade (talk • contribs) 10:29, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Documenting 2020 events

Such as things are here are the 2020 events which people put into the meta:Programs and Events Dashboard. I think these are good outcomes considering the disruption this year. Wiki Loves Pride 2020.

For comparison, see Wiki Loves Pride 2019.

Lots of events happen and we still do not consistently encourage registration in this process which records outcomes. I do not think that it is urgent for us to force use of this tracking system, but it is nice for us to have the precedent of using it and to be able to show some outcomes. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:38, 9 October 2020 (UTC)


Bias

Unconstructive descent into WP:NOTFORUM territory. Wikipedia describes reality as reliable sources do, and reliable sources describe LGBT people as normal variations of human behavior/gender expression. The end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:43, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hello to all, Seeing this is a viewpoint that has been expressed repeatedly but unfortunately censored by the fanatical LGBT types I have decided to state it again.

Having a moral opinion on homosexuality in such a way means that Wikipedia is not impartial and should stop calling itself so as it is disingenuous.

King greetings to all Ray2556 (talk) 20:19, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

You're not saying anything we haven't heard before. I recommend getting over it. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:57, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Would it not be more appropriate to address the points made rather than brushing it off in such a manner? This is an issue of principle, and if Wikipedia as a website decides it wants to support the LGBT movement it is disingenuous to perpetuate the myth that it is an entirely impartial site, is it not? Ray2556 (talk) 20:12, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Ray2556, What's the problem and what's your solution? Be specific. Also, you're barking up the wrong tree. Here you'll mostly find editors who care about making Wikipedia better and the Wikimedia movement more inclusive. You might take your complaint elsewhere. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Another Believer The problem is that Wikipedia claims to be completely impartial, however the title of this is Wiki loves Pride. This is an opinion which is contrary to the moral opinions of billions on this planet. As such, I do not believe Wikipedia should call itself impartial and retain this title. If it wants to remain impartial, a better name would be something along the lines of "Wiki Project for the Improvement of LGBT-related Articles". Ray2556 (talk) 21:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Ray2556, There's a WikiProject here at English Wikipedia called WikiProject LGBT studies. Wiki Loves Pride is a separate but related initiative. I'm not bothered by the campaign's title, so I'll let others weigh in. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:05, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Simply put, if you genuinely believe that not denying the humanity of LGBT+ people is a neutrality concern, you don't understand morality. The Wikipedia policy on WP:DUE and WP:NPOV even explain that just because multiple views exist, doesn't mean they're all equal: they have to be judged in context. Homophobia isn't a viewpoint given much credibility anymore. Homophobic comments on Wikipedia are typically blocked as purely disruptive and offensive material. Perhaps we should put up an FAQ thread here? How's "If you're thinking about saying you disagree with the gays and so this annual drive means Wikipedia isn't neutral, we've addressed this a dozen times and you're wrong, don't let the door hit you." Kingsif (talk) 00:06, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Kingsif Loving the homosexual "pride" organisation and respecting the humanity of homosexuals are separate. The Pride movement is one which accepts homosexual desire and activity as not being immoral. However, the major religion of our Western Civilisation, Christianity, by and large condemns homosexual desire and activity as being immoral, as does Islam. That is not a viewpoint not "given much credibility" - that is more than a billion people. The Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, Islam and many more as I am sure you realise, believe that homosexuality is an immoral activity and desire. Loving this means that the Wiki organisation accepts the beliefs of the Pride movement. No need to be so pissy, just have a conversation. I do not know if you are being deliberately disingenuous or if you sincerely believe that opposing homosexual activity and desire is denying these people of their humanity. In fact, there are many people who feel desires that are disgusted by them! Ray2556 (talk) 18:36, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't know what the most factually wrong part of that comment is, congratulations. We're not being "pissy". Guess how many Christians and Muslims I know? Most of the people I know, they're major world religions. Guess how many of them are homophobic? None. Homophobia is not a belief of any religion, but of certain small-minded people regardless of religion or none. Here's the thing: you're clearly one of them, but instead of just avoiding what you don't like, you're trying to convince people with open minds that you're right. You're wrong, take your trolling to 4chan or wherever, because any more and you will be stepping all the way down a path to permablock for bigotry and spreading unfounded nonsense. Kingsif (talk) 18:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Kingsif Homosexuality is a sin for many people across this globe. I don't know why you deny this. Please note this quotation from the HRC website "the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese lists homosexuality beside fornication, adultery, abortion and abusive sexual behavior as “immoral and inappropriate forms of behavior in and of themselves, and also because they attack the institution of marriage and the family.” It adds that, “the Orthodox Church believes that homosexual behavior is a sin.” Similarly, the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States, declares, “Like adultery and fornication, homosexual acts are condemned by Scripture.” Also please take into account these Koran quotes Sura 7: 80-81: "And Lut said to his people: Will you commit a horror that none of the world's inhabitants have committed for you?" "You approach men with lust instead of women. No, you are a people who go beyond the limits." (also translated as: "You are excessive people") "And we (Allah) let rain fall on them. Look how that was the end of the wrongdoers." I don't care how you label it but homosexuality to many world religions is simply not acceptable. So, now you know I am not spewing "unfounded nonsense" perhaps you should reconsider your manner of conversation. In fact, I am undecided on this topic (I personally have no conclusion on the morality of homosexuality and my opinions are irrelevant), yet you are quick to call me small-minded and say that I am trolling. If you would like to speak seriously on this issue, please do, however I am not partial to being name-called rather than spoken to in an adult fashion.Ray2556 (talk) 19:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
@Another Believer: We got Bible and Quran verses, do you think conversation can go from here? Kingsif (talk) 19:19, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
Kingsif Actually, we don't have Bible verses. We have Koran quotes yes, but the Christian statement is that of the Orthodox Church, not a page of the Bible. Also, it seems odd that you will not engage but require the approval of the other sir. Please note I only included those statements due to your insinuation that homosexuality is accepted by all religions, which it most definitely is not. Ray2556 (talk) 19:32, 3 July 2020 (UTC)


Wiki Loves Pride: Edit summary suggestions?

Whenever we do an edit-a-thon, there's usually the suggestion to add this in your Edit Summary; like for example "Added new page with the goal to increase women's representation in Wikipedia" ~ I would love to hear if anyone has suggestions on what to add during these Pride months. New pages can get treated a little unkind, so it would be good to add the reason WHY you're adding another bio for a trans person, etc. etc. so the non-LGBTQIA moderators here know something special is happening. --Jolarti (talk) 23:23, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

No, for reasons including: if an article is bad, it should get the same treatment as any other bad article, edit-a-thons are not grounds for allowing poor content; you act like only queer people have heard of pride month; there are already WLP banners. Just treat it like any other article. Kingsif (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Hateful emails

So far this month, I've received 2 emails with Biblical quotes inferring homosexuality is wrong. Every freakin' year... ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:40, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Yikes. Sorry you have to deal with that. Armadillopteryx 21:35, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm also sorry you had to deal with that too. --Historyday01 (talk) 22:01, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
Thanks. Just disappointing, that's all, and I wanted to share in case any other editors were also receiving similar messages. ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:30, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Ugh, I'm sorry. JUst found one this morning. I'm not sure which is sadder, the content or that people willing to spend their time spewing such nonsense. Star Mississippi 17:57, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Ideas

Feel free to update Wikipedia:Wiki Loves Pride/Tasks with articles needing to be created. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:14, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Bob Mizer photograph collection and more

Bob Mizer was a photographer who from the 1940s - 60s who operated a studio called the Athletic Model Guild. Photos from this studio appeared in various publications, including the Physique Pictorial. Many issues of that magazine seem to be in the public domain, which would make their contents, including photographs by Bob Mizer, art that they published by Tom of Finland, also in the public domain.

I think this is the most interesting and historically significant media collection which has come to Commons. If we can confirm that this content is in the public domain, then we could bring in the rest of the content at higher resolution. Right now in Commons there is Commons:Category:Physique Pictorial and Commons:Category:Athletic Model Guild.

I am unclear of the sources of all this content. Some of this content comes from JD Doyle archives, some from Cornell University through Internet Archive, and I have not tracked down who all might have engaged with it on Wikipedia. Garcia1865 uploaded a set of photos which contemporary publisher Taschen republished after deeming them public domain. We have someone claiming to represent the Bob Mizer Foundation who uploaded photos here Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by JoshPaulThomas. I think there is public domain content here but we need to track the provenance.

I wanted to post here first because all these uploads are recent. If we organized some group research to confirm copyright compatibility with the Wikimedia platform then we could present this collection with this year's Wiki Loves Pride outcomes. Here is what I think needs to happen:

  1. Initial thoughts here at Wiki Loves Pride
  2. Post to English Wikipedia WikiProject LGBT Studies, meta's Wikimedia LGBT+, and the general copyright board at Wikimedia Commons asking for comments on copyright
  3. If no one finds objection to copyright, then we set up a little gallery on Commons with talk page documentation including links to copyright discussions and sources of content
  4. We link to that gallery as a Wiki Loves Pride outcome, then by crowdsourcing anyone can identify more old magazines, new scans, and better scans

Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:26, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a great idea and I agree that it would be a good idea to post on Commons:Village pump/Copyright asking for a second opinion. I can chime in on the sourcing of some of these images, I scanned and uploaded two issues of Physique Pictorial to the Internet Archive after doing a little copyright research, I then had them imported from IA to Wikimedia Commons. In the description of the item on IA I included a link to Cornell's website on U.S. copyright law, so they are not from Cornell.[1] However, I know that Cornell University Library has a large collection of Physique Pictorials and many other gay related periodicals.
I believe these are firmly in the public domain because they do not have the necessary copyright notice and I strongly suspect that most of the issues of Physique Pictorial are also in the public domain, at least until 1978 when copyright law no longer required a notice. I've searched the Library of Congress's copyright card catalog with no luck for any entry for Mizer, Physique Pictorial, or AMG.[2] I've been hoping that a university library would digitize their copies of Physique Pictorial but most archivists and librarians are terrified of copyright. As for the Bob Mizer Foundation, I've been pretty disappointed in how they choose to share his work and in my opinion his estate should have been given to a university where it could be professionally preserved and managed. The Foundation seems more interested in profiting off the IP than preserving and sharing it. I think they fundamentally misunderstand copyright law, physical ownership of an original negative does not give you the copyright. I haven't read anything about the Foundation being given the rights by Mizer's estate, only that they rescued his photos and negatives from a dumpster. Photos that were published without a copyright notice can be shared on Wikimedia Commons even if the Foundation attempts to retroactively copyright them, high quality scans of public domain material are not considered derivative works that can be copyrighted.[3] Unpublished works of Mizer are still in copyright but I'm not sure who owns the rights. Sorry for the rant but I hope this was informative.
Also, if anyone out there has access to more copies of Physique Pictorial please look for a proper copyright notice and report back! If you have access to a scanner, I'd be happy to share guidance on how to get the best scans.

References

  1. ^ https://copyright.cornell.edu/publicdomain
  2. ^ https://vcc.copyright.gov/browse
  3. ^ https://www.likelihoodofconfusion.com/who-owns-the-copyright-scans-public-domain-works/

Verumregium (talk) 22:07, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

I posted to Commons at review of 1950s American published gay erotica 🏳️‍🌈🌈. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
I posted to English Wikipedia WikiProject LGBT Studies and to Wikimedia LGBT+ asking for comments on the Commons page. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:42, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Lesbian Bar Project

I think a good chunk of these are probably notable (and related, Sisters (lesbian bar) as a red link makes me sad) as there should be some internet sourcing for it. Anyone have any hometown or other favorites they want to tackle. I'm working on this but won't have time this month to research all of them. Star Mississippi 02:30, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Star Mississippi, Thanks for identifying. I've added some red links to encourage article creation and noted this on the Women in Red page as well. ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:27, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Thank you! WiR would be a wonderful partner especially as the PBS article focuses on some of the same under representation issues they try to address. Star Mississippi 13:10, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikidata query to find LGBT people from x

I am unsure if someone has already done this, but here is a Wikidata query to find LGBT people from x: 

SELECT DISTINCT ?person ?personLabel ?sexualorientationLabel ?sexorgenderLabel ?article
  WHERE {
    ?person wdt:P31 wd:Q5 . #?person is a human
    BIND(wd:Q60 as ?place). #change wd:Q60 (New York City) to whatever ?place you want to search
    
    { 
      ?person wdt:P21 ?sexorgender. #?person has ?sexorgender
      #?sexorgender is not male, female, cisgender male, cigender female, or cisgender person
      FILTER(?sexorgender NOT IN (wd:Q6581097, wd:Q6581072, wd:Q15145778, wd:Q15145779, wd:Q1093205)). 
    } UNION {
      ?person wdt:P91 ?sexualorientation . #?person has ?sexualorientation
      FILTER(?sexualorientation != wd:Q1035954). #?sexualorientation is not heterosexual
    }
    
    {
      ?person wdt:P19/wdt:P131* ?place. #?person was born in ?place
    }
    UNION {
      ?person wdt:P551/wdt:P131* ?place. #?person resides in ?place
    }
    UNION {
      ?person wdt:P937/wdt:P131* ?place. #?person works in ?place
    }
    
    #?person has English Wikipedia article
    ?article schema:about ?person ;
      schema:inLanguage "en" ;
      schema:isPartOf [ wikibase:wikiGroup "wikipedia" ] .  

    SERVICE wikibase:label { bd:serviceParam wikibase:language "[AUTO_LANGUAGE],en". }
}

As a matter of semantics, the query would be more accurately described as "Human subjects of English Wikipedia articles born, residing, or working in x who are either not heterosexual or whose listed sex/gender is not "male", "female", or "cisgender". Obviously, it is not perfect, but it is a possible starting point for some of the "LGBT people from x" lists.  Mysterymanblue  21:38, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I'll also note that this tends to time out on certain cities unless you remove the portion of the query dealing with having a Wiki article.  Mysterymanblue  21:56, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
I tried it for NYC, Seattle, and India, and it timed out for all cases even after I set a limit of 100 people. Did you actually get it to work?
In any case, you can share and workshop it by posting it to d:Wikidata:WikiProject LGBT/Queries, if you like. If you post it there, then we can permanently link to it from Wiki Loves Pride 2021 as one of the contributions for this year. By posting this maybe more people would share more queries. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
I got it to work when I removed the portion dealing with having to have an English Wikipedia article. You can see the query here and the results here. My apologies for not being clear about it.  Mysterymanblue  22:38, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Chen Arieli

I found this in the WiR queue, but it's worth eyes here too as she's the first openly gay Deputy Mayor of Tel Aviv and a long-time LGTBQ+ activist. Anyone familiar with AFC? Normally if I find a promising draft, I'll improve and move to main space, but this has been declined so many times, I'm not sure on process. There are some issues with the dates around her activism/chair of Agudah that stem from most of the sourcing around that role being in Hebrew, but she seems to be notable. Thoughts? Star Mississippi 15:09, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Gay bars

Some potentially helpful sources re: gay bars:

---Another Believer (Talk) 19:17, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Ann Bannon

In fleshing out List of LGBT people from Chicago, I came across Ann Bannon, who is a good contender for that list as she was raised in Hinsdale, Illinois. I noticed that her Wiki article has remarkably little about her own sexual orientation. She notes how she questioned her sexuality, and this article writes that she spent time "romancing in the gay bars of Greenwich Village". But the same article also says "Weldy shrugs off the label of lesbian—Chapman calls her "remarkably agile in the way she sees herself"—and considers sexuality a continuum. 'Nobody is totally one way or another. One of the problems of settling on a label is other people . . . think they know everything about you.'" While she clearly draws on her personal experiences and is open about many of them, she seems to consciously not go as far as to reveal many of the more personal or intimate aspects of her life (which we should respect). While most people would draw the conclusion that she is not heterosexual, I'm wondering if there's enough verifiable information there to add her to lists of LGBT people or to keep her article in various LGBT categories.  Mysterymanblue  07:54, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

So I thought Bannon was a lesbian. Huh. This is the kind of attitude we're seeing a lot more of now, though more people are coming out as queer/no labels - if there are no sources of Bannon identifying in any way at all then probably not. So that's perhaps an issue with the list articles: we are forced back into assuming everyone is/presenting everyone as straight unless told otherwise, even when they're Ann Bannon. Kingsif (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Help Hosting an Edit-a-thon

I'm working on hosting an edit-a-thon at work as part of our Pride Month activities. I'm new to editing Wikipedia, but I love the mission and I'm passionate about LGBTQ+ history. Would anyone be willing to chat with me about my plan for the edit-a-thon to see if I'm on the right track? Apologies if this isn't the right place to post. The general plan is to cover the following topics:

  • Why edit Wikipedia
  • Why LGBTQ+ topics
  • How to edit Wikipedia
  • Demo of how to find an article and edit
  • Resources to find articles that need editing

Dcutting (talk) 18:21, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

@Dcutting: I emailed you offering to chat by video or phone. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:07, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Kent Pride

Hello! I have created Draft: Kent Pride and wondered if any fellow Wiki Loves Pride editors would mind taking a look and providing any feedback - it's my first article, and it's awaiting review. Thank you, and happy Pride month! Unforgotten10 (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

This is now approved and out of draft. Thank you! Unforgotten10 (talk) 19:08, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Talk:Wiki_Loves_Pride#Help for Draft: Aditya Tiwari

More input here would be helpful. I gather this is where Plushwiki21 meant to post, rather than the article talk, but since it's there. Thank you Star Mississippi 01:33, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

AfD

---Another Believer (Talk) 13:47, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Kept. ---Another Believer (Talk) 14:25, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
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