Wikipedia talk:Route diagram template/Archive 2

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Using these icons for roads/highways

I've attempted to use these icons for mapping out junctions, towns and other features on roads/highways. For example, see User:Chuq/Sandbox/Midland. At the moment I am using the red icons, but I thought maybe versions of these in dark grey (instead of red) and light grey (instead of pink) would be better, to visually differentiate them from railways. Is there any particular naming convention which would be preferred? I notice the blue waterways ones are named with a lowercase 'u' at the start. I don't want to step on toes so advice on how to go about this would be appreciated! Further discussion is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Highways#Road_diagram_icons. -- Chuq (talk) 11:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

The use of the icons to map out a road gave me a good ten minutes of hysterical laughter. Thanks for the entertainment. Canterberry 14:06, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

What, it's more weird than using them for waterways? Actually I just re-read what I wrote above, and I notice I didn't specify that I wasn't intending to using identical icons, just icons in the same style as these ones - I assumed people would be able to work that out. -- Chuq (talk) 21:49, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I could tell that it was a serious suggestion, even if User:Canterberry couldn't, and I don't see why it is weird to use them for waterways either.
The reason for the waterways variants starting with 'u' is that the basic symbols were 'borrowed' from the original railway set, where blue lines are used to indicate underground lines.
You could use grey, or some other colour as traditionally used on your roadsigns or maps. Information/ideas for creating/editing icons may be found on this page or the relevant UK Rail/UK Waterways project talk pages.
EdJogg 23:12, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
A quick look at User:Canterberry's recent edit history should put the above, unacceptable, comment into some context. Using this model for roads, is eminently sensible. Andy Mabbett 09:35, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
The header at the top of this project page states "It is similar to the Autobahnbox series of templates", so I suspect the Germans have already done this. Indeed, the railway line template may have developed from the road templates, and this is merely taking things full circle. – Tivedshambo (talk) 01:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Full circle - that would be a roundabout then? It could actually be quite a good way to describe motorways, with their junctions etc. The M25 (around London) might be an interesting one to attempt! Cataloging the symbols for road, rail and waterways is important though - they and their naming conventions should all be kept as consistent as possible. Now, how about mapping air routes??? Regards, Lynbarn 09:14, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Trying to portray 3 dimensions in just a few vertical columns? Good luck! – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I have a GREAT IDEA. <tongueincheek>Why don't we also come up with some symbols for cycle routes/paths, horse bridle paths too. We can then put all of the different modes of transport (rail, air, road, river, ships, cycle, tram, bus etc.) together on an integrated map. I have another superb idea, lets call it the "A-Z" ... surely this is something that has never been doen before!!! </tongueincheek>. Well maybe it ain't such a great idea. Canterberry 09:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
If the cycle-path etc. is notable enough to have an entry, and someone wants to develop a system to produce a map for that article, they're welcome to try. It's certainly a lot easier than trying to draw article related maps in png or svg format, which is always on a fine line between copyvio and original research. – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
All cycle paths are important! Certainly more important than motorways. HandigeHarry 13:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
Here's an example of a highway. Although it has not been reverted, I should say that it hasn't been very well received by the Dutch. HandigeHarry 13:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The WP:HWY project informed me that they have no interest in this as WP:ELG is apparently written in stone. Vagary 20:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Stations directions request (3-way)

There are 2-way stations and 4-way stations. Could 3-way stations be created e.g. splicing a BHF with an ABZrg but doing this also for lf, lg and rf as well?

Examples of 3-way stations:

Simply south 19:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Another challenge in this respect when considering Historical Railway Companies are:
In these cases part of the old station is still open, with a substantial section on the triangle closed. Ambergate and Forres have bypass lines away from the triangle.
--Stewart 23:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Problem with the {{access icon}}

When i look at Marshlink Line page i can see stations without the {{access icon}} but i can't see thoses with it (XP & IE7, also Firefox 1.5.0.7). Canterberry (XP & Firefox) can see them no problem. Anyone else having issues??? Pickle 01:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I get the same problem. It's due to a long standing "friendly discussion" about the copyright issues of this image. The latest solution seems to be using a character from a specific font. Unfortunately not everyone has that font installed. I'll revert the {{access icon}} template to something that should work for all users. – Tivedshambo (talk) 06:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Cheers. IMHO using an obscure font doesn't help as few people will have it installed. Pickle 19:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
There's instructions on how to install the font at Help:Displaying the international wheelchair symbol. Clicking on ♿ will bring you to that page. —Remember the dot (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
That's great for the hardcore nutters (or dedicated folk) like us but its no good for the average browsers of Wikipedia. I'm not having a dig at you but the general stupidity of this situation. Pickle 01:49, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've fixed Marshlink Line so that even if we were using the standard symbol it wouldn't cause a problem. I agree that it's dumb that we can't just send an image file. Installation of the font will become simpler with the next release of DejaVu on July 1, so we can hold off until then. There's more discussion at Template talk:Access icon. —Remember the dot (talk) 01:57, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your help on this Pickle 03:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
The solution of using "3=" (or presumably "4=", "5=" etc for BS2, BS3 etc) is not ideal, especially for users who use the spoorstrip software. However, the {{access icon}} template is still going through a revert war (one user even seems to be warring against himself(!)), though it seems that using the png icon seems to be the consensus, which won't require any fixes to the method of using BS. – Tivedshambo (talk) 05:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Other uses

There's a discussion of using similar maps for footpaths which may be of interest. Andy Mabbett 11:09, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

How would I do this junction?

MBTA Franklin Line

[1] is the junction at Walpole on Template:MBTA Franklin Line. What's currently on the map is the passenger train paths; the rest is freight-only. --NE2 00:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to use a newer version of the BSx template, for starters - I'm seeing gaps between icons on consecutive rows, which I think is fixed in current versions of the template. Secondly - the Google map isn't a huge amount of help. Where do freight lines diverge from and cross the other lines, exactly? If I can figure that out, I'll fix it for you as a demonstration. AlexTiefling 09:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Is this what you're after? – Tivedshambo (talk) 14:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much, but it's a lot bigger than necessary. (Also everything pointing towards the left should be lighter, since the template is for the passenger line.) --NE2 01:21, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Shrunken version

Legend
KBHFa~~Boston South Station tSTR BHF~~New York City BHF~~Newark BHF~~Metropark tSTR KBHFe~~Washington

I have created a "first draft" of an automated shrunken version. It can be seen on the Northeast Corridor at User:NE2/testing and User:NE2/testing2. Here is what I think of it:

Advantages
  • Reduces the size of the template, since on a long line it can use a lot of space (it can be further reduced using Template:Railmap-3, at right)
  • Pretty much fully automated
Disadvantages
  • "Expensive" on the servers; I couldn't put all of the demonstration on one page because of template limits
  • I'm not sure how to handle branches; right now every station on the branch to Springfield uses station=New Haven

I know that I'm currently using the tunnel symbol; a special symbol would be created and used instead. What do others think of this? --NE2 04:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this shows the preceeding and following station to a given station, plus the first and last station on the line. Is that right? It's a nice idea, but...
Firstly, you seem to have created a second template, Template:Railmap-row/Northeast Corridor, which needs to contain all the information contained in Template:Northeast Corridor. This would mean that any changes to one template would also have to be reproduced in the other.
Secondly, a lot of lines are extremely complex. See Template:RBS-Line for example. Would this work in these circumstances?
I think a better solution would be to create a template with six parameters, line-name, first station, preceeding station, station, following station, last station to produce the same effect, which could easily be dropped into any station article. This would be a graphical alternative to {{rail line}}.
Incidentally, instead of using the tunnel icon, I would suggest using LUECKE () as this is an existing interruption symbol. – Tivedshambo (talk) 06:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
If we're going to go with simplified layouts in station articles, which frankly makes a lot of sense (I was dreading the mess that Secaucus Junction would spawn), I would suggest not even creating a metatemplate for the articles, and just code the lines by hand. Ginning up five or six rows really wouldn't take much more effort than any automated process, and yes, before anybody asks, I volunteer for at least part of the job. And it's not like it would go stale more than once a decade, once it was done. —CComMack (t–c) 07:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it's also worth asking whether these should be used in station articles, or only in line articles as part of a station listing. I think in most cases the existing succession boxes are fine, and in the strange junctions it would be better to have a scale map anyway. We might want to use image maps on those scale maps for the adjacent stations. --NE2 01:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
That looks like fun! Having witnessed the creative flair that has been unleashed by the creation of the route maps, I can just imagine what sort of diagrams we're going to see in the future! (This probably sounds as though it is sarcastic, but it is not.) -- EdJogg 09:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thicker variant?

Does anyone object to me creating a thicker variant for use on lines with local and express tracks? For example, Template:NYCS B'way-7th Av Line would use the thicker line between 96th and Chambers. It should be carefully planned out before creation. --NE2 01:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

How do I make standardized symbols?

I know that I'd need a new standard for thicker lines. But for normal lines, I made File:BSicon eKRZolf.svg with [2], but it doesn't curve properly like File:BSicon KRZorg.svg. --NE2 02:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not see any merit in this or the preceding proposal. The existing diagrams have been used for track sections six lines wide or wider. The standard width of image allows for wide compatibility. I also believe that the examples shown are probably too detailed - there are too many possibly variations. AlexTiefling 11:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by "this proposal"? I'm making an image in the standard style, like some existing ones (File:BSicon KRZorg.svg). As for the thick lines, the issue is with local and express stations. These aren't normally as well-defined on "normal" rail lines, but rapid transit has more frequent service with a small number of patterns. For instance, there's no way to use the standard symbols on User:NE2/BW7 to indicate that not all trains stop at the "small dot" stations between 96th and Chambers, but that they do elsewhere. --NE2 11:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I mean the proposal for thicker lines. It is my understanding that precise representation of stopping patterns is beyond the feasible remit of this project, and would be better treated in the main text of the article. I've never seen your existing example image before. If we were to generate a family of icons on this basis, there would need to be just shy of 3423=648 different ones - three possible configurations for the 'curve' in each of the four corners, two states for the vertical line, two states for the horizontal line, and two states for the bridge in the middle, less the unnecessary cases where both the straight lines are inactive and the curves might be shown as active. AlexTiefling 11:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Metro line usage

I'm not sure if I want to ask this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Is the template suitable for rapid transit lines (as opposed to only railway lines as described on the project page) at this point? What I see is blue is supposed to represent rapid transit lines (under "Track for light or metro railways (underground/subway/tramway)"), which also represents waterways as well—perhaps not the greatest of distinctions. Are the icons from the waterways page supposed to represent rapid transit as well? Tinlinkin 03:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's the other way round - blue was already in use to represent metro lines, and when it was decided to do waterways the same way it was simplest to use the blue icons that already existed. Are there any maps which show both waterways and railways in detail together? If not, I don't see it being a problem. – Tivedshambo (talk) 05:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Since there are only a few rapid transit symbols, it looks like this system was intended for "normal" railways. I don't see anything wrong with using red for rapid transit when the map is of a rapid transit line. --NE2 05:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
There are actually more rapid transit symbols, as I found out from the waterway page and above, you just have to append a "u" appended before the ID. I'd be willing to update the pictogram table. If the existing pictograms distinguish between a normal railway and a rapid transit line, it is best to have some consistency. And I agree with Tivedshambo that the distinction should be kept. The blue is not a problem for me. It's only a problem if someone could mistake a metro system for a waterway and vice versa. Although I was confused at first, the unique characteristics of the waterway pictograms tell me no. A change of color is probably too much trouble than it's worth. due to the restrictions of the icon generator.
The section "Junctions/Stops/Stations with underground/subway" (the first one) is rather ambiguous. What the "S" seems to represent is a connection between the railway line and a subway line. But then I see in Glasgow Subway it appears to symbolize a subway station. Which is it? Tinlinkin 07:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
I had not noticed this section before and, as it is an issue for me too, I shall weigh in. I understand how blue came to be used for subway/metro/tube transit -- that is the standard used in Germany for S-bahn (surface rail) versus U-bahn (unterbahn or under-rail). But there are currently 1180 pages listed in Category:Trains project articles needing maps. The chances of this issue never coming up in the near future is Zero. Too many people are fixated on how much work has already been done and not sufficiently exploring how much work is left to do so that this future can be planned for. But that is just my own unpopular opinion. Think about cities with both urban rail transit and significant water infrastructure issues: Chicago, New Orleans, Montreal, Paris, Copenhagen, Stockholm, the Benelux region, ... BeeTea 18:33, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
You are (again) very mistaken in your view. There are close on 500 pages that have maps at the moment. That is not a small number to be modified just for the sake of renaming the icons to suit one author. As I have said before, the whole idea of a program like Spoorstrip is that you do not need to know the names of the icons, which if their number is to increase, must be considered. Generating icons is a tertiary issue to the issue of producing more maps, which in itself is a seconday issue to the primary purpose of producing more railway articles!! The work that you are proposing is a complete distraction, and I am very mucch against it. You need to consider the importance of renaming the icons against the bigger picture. Canterberry 07:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
You are (again, always?) not reading the words on the page or else overly reading into the words on the page. So far the conversation has gone on like this: I question whether sufficient fore-thought went into creating the system as it has evolved to date and no one wants to think about what problems will come up very soon in the future; I question whether the system is robust enough to increase functionality in pace with application and you accuse me of criticising Spoorstrip when so far the only person to say anything bad about the program is you. You are the person who says that Spoorstrip is having trouble keeping up with the icons. That did not come from me. But, okay, if that is true, perhaps part of the problem is that the variety and application of these icons has outgrown the patterns for naming them that was set down in the beginning. I know editors do not need to know icons to write pages with Spoorstrip -- that's not the issue. The issue is that the software itself (and I can write C++ and Perl and SQL too) must rely upon certain naming conventions and algorithms in order to pull up the right icon for the right place. Those conventions and algorithms are now in full break-down because the new icons are all over the map and the resulting pages will only remain intelligible to the software or readers if the modalities of transport do not intersect -- ie: urban transit and canals cannot be depicted together because both use blue. Or whatever. I am not proposing the existing 500 pages be redone, though they could be with a bot. The existing icons should not be renamed but copied to a new name structured according to a more robust algorithm. Other language spaces may go on using the older icons indefinitely into the future, though, if we succeed in showing some leadership by building a better mousetrap, then we may win others around. If we can get our act together and make the process less arcane, then we will attract more enthusiastic editors to the task. The 1180 pages without maps are just the tip of the iceberg -- many countries do not yet even have an entry in "railway lines by country". And this is just the railways -- not busses, metros, ferries, canals, trails, veloroutes, ... Canterberry -- you have observed more than once that there are more icons in use than this project page lists and only Spoorstrip has them all. Then I invite you to be bold too and add all those missing icons that you know about to the table on the RDT page so we can view the assembly. Go for it. If we can hammer out a more robust algorithm or methodology for the icons, then that will make future growth of Spoorstrip simpler as well and even HandigeHarry will thank us, in the long run. Everybody here should be able to see the writing on the wall by now, that RDT data in pages will have application in tens of thousands of articles across WP and that all means of transport interlink. I am not trying to be a nuisance. BeeTea 19:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Icon request - Flag stop

Can someone create an icon variant for small stations to indicate flag stops? Amtrak timetables show an icon of two crossed flags next to the time (see the Texas Eagle timetable for an example). For our use, if we could put a flag icon, like , over a station icon, like , it would be ideal. Alternatively, could we get a separate flag icon, much like the airplane () or ferry () icons that aren't on top of lines? AdThanksVance. Slambo (Speak) 12:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

VIA Rail in Canada also uses "stops by request", nostalgically known as "whistle stops". That's a great looking flag icon! But I would be hesitant to use that here in this way -- it looks like a border crossing. It's very colourful and draws way too much attention in the overall graphic strip relative to its minuscule importance as a "whistle stop". In fact, I would recommend that this flag icon be used in the "GRENZE" icons series as a more globally known symbol of borders.
How about a small red station dot placed just off the trackline, to the right preferably as that is where the text must appear? So you would have a thru section of track ("STR") with a dot slightly off to the side. This would indicate an optional stop -- the train goes straight through unless there is reason to stop.
This would give us four levels of stops:
  • Hauptbahnhof
  • Bahnhof
  • Station
  • Stop
I would like to see the highest class of station more strongly indicated by an "H" inside the red circle. This would mean "Hauptbahnhof" in German, of course, but also "Hub" in English and clearly some stations are Hubs, but it is anglo practice to give them all the same name. The point is to make it readily apparent, especially in cities which have many rail stations but few terminals or hubs, like Paris. BeeTea 20:25, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm, putting the station dot off to the side might work. The UK Waterways project uses and to indicate a structure to the side of a canal, so something similar here with red lines (all the possible shades since flag stops can be in any of the current station stop configurations) should work. Right now I'm putting "(F)" in the last field of the BS lines and a legend at the bottom to indicate a flag stop (see City of New Orleans for an example). Slambo (Speak) 20:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Go to BCN Main Line to see someone using this icon on a canal to indicate .... (drum roll) .... a railway station adjacent to the canal! But it should be a solid red circle next to a red line -- solid because it is a passenger station and the hollow dots indicate freight service only.
A little further down the strip, look to see a railway line passing under a canal ... Can anyone verify this on the ground? Does a railway line pass under a canal? And then shouldn't the railway tracks be shown in tunnelled format (dashed lines)? What this iconography indicates as written is a surface level train passing under an elevated canal bed, full of water and ships, on a bridge. It is feasible but unlikely.
Meanwhile, while they have icons to show intersections of a canal with a railway line, they have none for roadways. It's just a tunnel, with a label for what might be on top.
While we're clicking, see Tyne and Wear Metro for a light rail metro network done entirely in blue lines. I know this is the colour for the U-bahn, but it makes it look like a waterway. Both this and the BCN page indicated above are using a single special one-use template to encapsulate the whole route. BeeTea 04:36, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
There's a page here: http://www.envf.port.ac.uk/kacanal/html/kac0229.htm showing a canal bridge over a railway. It's not a tunnel as such at all - simply a bridge broad enough to carry the canal bed and towpath. In the UK, there are plenty such examples, including some fairly high canal aqueducts with rivers, roads and rail lines below them. It's not 'unlikely' at all. AlexTiefling 08:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for making me check the BCN map. One of the intersections should be rail over canal (I've changed it). The other is indeed an aqueduct - canal with water and boats passing over rail. There are many in the UK, and many in the Midlands where the BCN Main Line canals run parallel on two levels. Oosoom Talk to me 08:58, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
BeaTea, you've not encoutered an aqueduct before? Check out the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct page. I haven't travelled across it myself, but it is seriously impressive. There is only a railing and towpath on one side, so as you navigate your boat across you can look over the other side into the valley 126 feet below - not for the faint-hearted! EdJogg 09:14, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Not any aqueduct in this sense of the word, no. I am in Canada and have never been to England, though I have been all through France, Italy, Switzerland and Austria and to Munich too. My understanding of aqueduct is in its classical sense as a conduit for potable drinking water which is carried from near its high altitude source to a perhaps distant city without significant reduction in altitude so as to maintain water pressure in household plumbing pipes, etc. This is what enabled the Romans to build highrise buildings and to get water up to the 3rd or 5th floors. An elevated canal does not carry drinking water! But okay if that's what they want to call it. I guess I had not realised the extent of the canal network in the interior of England, even in the Pennines! It's sliced up as much as the Netherlands. Canada has many canals, but they are normally very deep cuts in the rock with bridges for other transport going over them. The St Lawrence Seaway has massive locks for ocean freighters. The Rideau Canal is closest to the English idea of a pastoral pleasure canal for barges and small boats. BeeTea 16:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Does use of special one-off templates like this cut down on random acts of vandalism by readers who get into the page code but then cannot find their way into template code? I'm guessing it must. BeeTea 16:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
re: Hauptbahnhof -- I had a better idea: a very large regional transportation hub or origin point for multiple routes could be indicated by a extra large open red circle with 8 crossing red lines in the centre, like the hub spokes of a wheel. BeeTea 16:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

This has now been applied to other things than just railways - roads, waterways and footpaths. I think a more general name is needed but i am not sure what. Simply south 11:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't see that there is much more it could be used for, but might I suggest Transport route template? Regards, Lynbarn 15:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Or Route map template? EdJogg 19:29, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Route diagram template. 'Route' is preferable to 'Transport' to include footpaths. It produces topographical maps (like the Tube map) rather than geographical maps, so I'm not sure we should replace 'line' with 'map' (and in fact, it could be argued that the maps produced are so linear that Route line template would be appropriate for the non-railway uses, as well). Vagary 05:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
No, I like Route diagram template too. Not specific to any one mode of transport (including foot, horse, etc), or usage...
EdJogg 06:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I prefer Transport Map Template. The title must have "transport" in it, as "route map" or "line diagram" is just too vague. Canterberry 07:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Given that everything you could do on a footpath is listed in Human-powered transport, transport is accurate. The most accurate term for the kind of map or diagram the templates produce is a schematic. Transport schematic templates? Vagary 08:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I quite like Route diagram template. Leaving out Transport doesn't make it too vague, it makes it more universal in application. The context will come from the article in which it is used. True, I can't think of any non-transport uses at the moment, but I'm sure there are some... Regards, Lynbarn 09:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I'll vote for Route diagram template too. Maybe there'll be articles about individual Electric power transmission routes in due course... ;-) – Tivedshambo (talk) 09:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
If you are interested in electricity routes, then take a look at the Seven Year Statement produced by the National Grid Company. The statement contains maps of the current network and of the future network. Similar maps are available for the distribution network from the various regional electricity companies. Take a look at the Energy Networks Assocation website. Canterberry 10:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not particularly interested in powerlines, though thanks for finding the links! I added it as a semi-jokey suggestion of a route that isn't transport based. A more serious suggestion for the future might be something like Hadrian's Wall, if someone can be bothered to design icons for the various forts and milecastles along it. – Tivedshambo (talk) 11:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
...and then there's the sewers, water mains, gas pipelines... As for everything you could do on a footpath is listed in Human-powered transport, I can remember a few things I did as a teenager on footpaths that aren't mentioned - mind you, most of those didn't get me anywhere either! Lynbarn 11:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
I think Route diagram template sounds best too, for reasons people have already given. --Simmo676 10:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I've moved the page to Wikipedia:Route diagram template, per the above discussion. Cheers. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Collapsible Sections

I've attempted to write an extension for collapsible sections. It hasn't been tested much and I'm not up to making it work with multiple columns. The two table header templates, Template:BS-table/WithCollapsibles and Template:BS-table1/WithCollapsibles, should be able to replace Template:BS-table and Template:BS-table1 in all circumstances, so please try that with your most complex lines. Vagary 05:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how valuable this is, if it can't be made to work with BS2, BS3, BS4, and BS5. Marc Shepherd 14:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
There's no technological barrier to that, it's just too complicated for me to work out (at least right now). It also appears that the table width is screwy. In short, someone with stronger template-fu than I needs to finish this.
The case made for this feature was Main North railway line, New South Wales, it's valuable for such long-haul lines if nowhere else. Vagary 19:12, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Done. (I think) Turned out to be pretty trivial once you get down to it. Vagary 19:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Alignment of the Railway Title is a little odd, with the justification not always being rendered well. See Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway for an example, looking especially at the alignment of the second line. I have attempted to resolve this and failed - the edits in the template sections have been left for the time being, but feel free to revert them. --Stewart 20:37, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
The alignment of hidden sections is now centred, which looks weird. Can we change it back so all headers, hidden or otherwise, are the same alignment (left-aligned) as it was originally? JRG 23:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I reverted Stewart's changes to Template:Railway line header: as JRG pointed out, the effect was too broad. (For some reason some of the diagrams I look at are still centred, but I'm going to blame that on my cache and cross my fingers...)
What is the correct rendering of Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway? I mostly work by using template substitution to get the underlying wiki table, modifying that, and then working backward. Vagary 03:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
The title for Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock and Ayr Railway is not centred in the middle of the box. When the box is hidden, the title right justifies to a point approximately 1/3 from the right edge. Similarly for Lochearnhead, St Fillans and Comrie Railway. Prior to the collasible functionality being added, these and the other Scottish Lines I have been working on were all centre justified, even when they took up two lines. To quote JRG the setup is now weird as the justification is now just a mess. The reversions have had no effect on the lines I have had a look at (as was my original edits). Callander and Oban Railway is ok when displayed, but goes odd when hidden. --Stewart 06:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, the only change I made to any of the templates used in those diagrams is to add a style parameter to Railway line header. In my experience, collapsible tables have very weird layout behaviour, are you sure this problem didn't start when Oosoom added collapsible to Railway line header on May 26? We could fork the collapsible sections modification to Template:Railway line header until this gets sorted out? Vagary 06:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
By all means revert collapsible on Railway line header if you are working on a grander plan. Oosoom Talk to me 08:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Its purpose was to hide large maps when editing, or printing draft copies of an article, so I would suggest that in the long term such a facility would be useful. Oosoom Talk to me 08:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I see it as a completely separate feature to collapsible sections, as you imply. I suspect the ugliness that Stewart points out is pretty much normal behaviour for collapsible. It can be worked around with a combination of shorter titles and fixed widths. Worst-case scenario, provide an alternate template the same way we have Template:BS-table and Template:BS-table1. Vagary 09:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Icon Composition

I've just come up with a way to drastically simplify icon creation and maintenance. Since the SVG icons are rendered into PNGs with transparent backgrounds, they can be superimposed on each other to compose complex icons. For example, using the approach in Template:Superimpose (with a background of yellow to distinguish between white and transparent):

+ + + File:BScomp tSHST.svg =
- + =

I have no idea whether this works in Internet Explorer and we should seek input from WP:USE before conversion. Vagary 22:50, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess the simple answer to your question "whether it works" is No, it does not. In the upper one, I see a white square with an ultra thin line along the top edge (perhaps a red line?), then two completely blank white squares, then a square with an "S-bahn" symbol in it and then all adding up to .... a white square with an "S-bahn" logo and the thin red line. But I do see the yellow now today (for the first time). BeeTea 20:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I just changed the yellow today: I'd changed the source icons in response to discussion for footpaths and just noticed it screwed them up here. That's too bad that it doesn't work, I thought IE was doing better with CSS and SVG support - are you running version 7? Vagary 22:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Most clever, I am sure. But the icons are named ... and there is no shortage of people willing and able to create new ones as the need arises. So I am impressed, but confused, as I am not sure what you are proposing adds anything to the template. If you alter the icons, then may hell and all its demons be upon you, for I am others have spent many hours creating maps, and if you undo all that work, then I may have to terminate your futile existence prematurely. Canterberry 22:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Haha, I certainly wouldn't do it without consensus! If there is no labour being wasted on management or creation of new icons, and there is no problem with icon proliferation, then please disregard my suggestion: no need for premature optimization. I just guessed that the waterways, footpaths, etc. people had better things to do than change the colours on every one... Vagary 23:34, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I presume that the code necessary to create each icon would be placed in a template, so you only needed to call the template (it is far too complicated to use otherwise), and you would then need to modify the route templates to recognise a template in place of a jpg file. I think Canterberry is right in that where you need new icons, it would be better for them to be created as now. However, this technique has great potential for providing alternative colour versions of existing icons, thus reducing workload by avoiding the need for 'watered', 'de-watered', 'proposed', tidal variants of every icon in and out of tunnels.
EdJogg 23:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Given that it's all done through templates now, it would be trivial to make it backward compatible. The main (optional!) change I'd advocate is splitting the ID prefixes and suffixes into template options. So if I want a small, disused station at the end of a line in a tunnel, rather than creating a BSicon_etHSTe.svg I might write:
{{BS|{{HST|rail|end|tunnel=1|used=0}}|...
Or even create a template called etHSTe so I can just write:
{{BS|{{etHSTe}}|...
Fine-grained colour control could also be desirable for urban transit diagrams where lines are consistently colour-coded. Vagary 23:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
Now that seems much more economical and sensible (you're not a software engineer by any chance are you?) Much easier to use!
A hurdle you haven't yet considered is that these templates were originally acquired from German WP where they are still being developed. Is there a need to maintain a link between the two systems?
Also, what is the difference with server load and download speed? Complicated, large routemaps have many different icons and take a while to download (even on a broadband link).
EdJogg 00:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I might just be a software engineer. ;)
I'm unclear on the link between this project and the original German one. It appears that this one is expanding functionality faster. My personal feeling is that this should move to Commons and be Anglicized...
Server load is Jimbo's problem. ;) Basically what this approach is doing is simulating inline SVG, so if Mediawiki supported that then there'd be no difference. It's easy to optimize certain icons if load appears to be an issue. Vagary 21:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
An example is at User:Vagary/Footpath Icons. Vagary 21:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Colour-Neutral Icons

This is less ambitious than the above proposal. By switching: transparent → white, line colour → transparent; colour-neutral icons can be created:

Vagary 22:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

RDT: Uber-Template ....

I have just come to this project, but boy am I impressed! Before all the horses leave the stable, however, it is time to take stock and make some crucial decisions. This may have grown out of German roots, but it has taken on a life of its own in the English wikispace.

If any project needed some management, this is it! The potential is enormous, but I see it being gerry-built and this worries me. I think the decision must be made to totally sever the templates in English namespace from the German roots. This means re-naming the icons and rewriting the templates to accept them. I am a Canadian and I speak German and French and Latin, but I know the Americans will never widely accept this if they don't understand the connections between name and function. Conversely, if you don't sever the ties to the German space, there is the danger of some new innovation happening there which breaks the pages in the wider world. There is not enough communication across the language divide to prevent this.

The templates need to be anglicised and politically neutral. This means take "UK" and "BS" out of the template names. Use "EN" if you must. Or just use "RDT" for "Route Diagram Template" and put that in all icon names. Then roll out prefectly parallel and standardised templates and icons for all means of conveyance -- rail, canal, road, footpath, cyclepath.

The longer you delay this inevitability, the harder it will be to make these changes later because people are finding these templates, ignoring the warnings about their lack of completeness or stability, and using them globally. BeeTea 23:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Excellent suggestion. Along with template renaming, there is lots of potential for cleanup. In addition to the Icon Composition idea, above, the header templates need to be abstracted (ie: there should be less of them and they should be less directly tied to table syntax). I'm not really sure how WikiMedia works: should this project be headquartered here or on Commons? Vagary 02:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The icons are housed in the Commons. If any are not, they should be. The templates are peculiar to each namespace, which means we have even less reason to be tied to them. Any wiki can rewrite templates for use in local language space without breaking the originals elsewhere. And we can rewrite our EN language copies of the templates to work with our naming conventions. Any pages using the ported German templates in EN space will still function, but it would be advisable to convert them over the longhaul.
I anticipate there will be grumbles about this. BUT -- the outcome will be a universally applicable template with no legacy issues. And there is 10x the work to do in the future which shall not need retrofitting later -- consider, for example, the EuroVelo network or how about the Trans-Canada Trail -- an 18078km footpath from sea to sea in Canada which currently has no maps associated with it. No one is going to try to build that in German. Sorry -- ain't happening! The canal waterway icons can be used for thousands of inland waterways. How about for tracing historic voyageur fur-trading canoe routes in Canada?
Yes, I am aware of WP:NOT -- Wikipedia is not a travel guide. But I also feel strongly that this iconic language of routes is capable of connecting information in spatial sequence in ways that category pages can never do, because they are alphabetical by default. What we are birthing here is a mapping language capable of conveying relationship visually and symbolically and wordlessly without going beyond that into value judgements about "tourist-worthiness". BeeTea 04:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
These maps do not make WP a travel guide unless they exist simply as a straight line ball-and-stick diagram with no additional detail -- and I think we've gone well beyond that stage now!
What you are suggesting sounds like a mini-project in its own right, but you are quite correct to suggest it. Good luck with its implementation (fortunately, template redirects can exist so a phased introduction will be possible).
EdJogg 11:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It all sounds like a good idea. However, you really should talk to HandigeHarry who writes the SpoorStrip program. If you are changing the names of all the icons, then you will give him a major headache, and an awful lot of work. Canterberry 12:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I just received Spoorstrip from him. Is the program dependent on loading icons off WP? Understand that there is no need to obliterate or replace existing icons -- that would break pages. Rather what we do is upload duplicate icons with new names and then code the templates to use them. Legacy pages can be tackled later. This is only 4 months out of the starting gate -- it looks like a lot, but I can see where the vision of people in this project has ballooned to take in canals and footpaths and more and the templates need to reflect that. BeeTea 15:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
"... this project has ballooned to take in canals and footpaths and more ..." please, please, please ... do not get everyone started ... we have been through this before ... and re-opening old debates really isn't in the interests of anyone <hangs heads and sighs deeply> Canterberry 16:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Which old debates? I see the canal routes and footpath routes are already happening, and they are trying to use the railway templates and icons to achieve this. BeeTea 17:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
To what extent is Spoorstrip popular because the icons acronyms are in German? Thinking long-term we should be most concerned with editors making adjustments to existing diagrams, not editors writing new ones. Vagary 19:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Since I normally edit from my Linux box, Spoorstrip doesn't enter into my editing at all. Slambo (Speak) 02:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Nor mine, as I edit with a Mac. Is there any chance of porting Spoorstrip to *nix, or are non-Windows users just out of luck? Given that Spoorstrip is talked about here in such terms as to make it seem almost mandatory, I should hope that this tool for the creation and editing of much free content is not locked to proprietary software. —CComMack (t–c) 20:25, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know Pencefn? Checkout his User:Pencefn/Historical_Scottish_Railways space. BeeTea 15:56, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
What am I looking at? Vagary 19:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Click on any "Worksheet" link down the right edge. He created dozens of these in March and then slowed/stopped. Not sure why. BeeTea 20:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah okay, the Principal Station Lists seem awfully redundant with the route diagrams. I think this project may eventually need something more sophisticated than collapsible sections to deal with long routes... Vagary 20:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not convinced that it's a good idea to sever the ties with the original template and icon names. BeeTea seems to think that the existing names are slowing down or hampering acceptance, but I see no evidence of that. I would focus on adding new icons—there are clearly more that exist than the current page shows. The proposed rewrite would be a distraction, and I don't think the pros/cons have been very thoughtfully considered. Marc Shepherd 17:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, let's talk about new icons. As it stands now, new icons need to be given German acronyms to fit into the naming conventions. The original template is on the German WP. That tie was severed the moment that template was copied over into English WP. So what we have now is an English WP template hierarchy which is reliant for its functionality on icons shared with the German WP. There is also a bunch of titlebar templates using "UK" in their names, which Aussie and Canadian and American editors may pass over because they think "it's not applicable here" when the reality is that they would be if the child-parent relationships in the classes were worked out. BeeTea 17:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I had just noticed the {{UKrail-header}} and {{UKrail-header2}} templates as this was being discussed. Since all they add is to allow the user to specify a different foreground and background color, it would seem simple to integrate these features into the single {{BS-header}} template. For the articles I've been updating in Category:Amtrak routes, it would be nice if the header line used the same blue color as {{rail color box}} when listing Amtrak routes, and one template with optional color params seems the best solution for this part of the template system. Slambo (Speak) 17:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
What would "hampered acceptance" look like? Editors don't necessarily leave a note on any talk page when they decide that something is too much work. We've run into some issues with naming conventions for Footpath Icons. And as I've said before, I think that a project cleanup should include icon organization... Vagary 19:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Just as a further note to Marc Shepherd, I assure you I am not suggesting we re-invent any wheels here. I am talking about standardising, streamlining, unifying. I am talking about ironing out all legacy issues so that further proliferation of templates with overlapping and confusing names is staunched. I am talking about shedding attachment to files outside of the English namespace so that we can go our own way. I am talking about building neutral POV into the templates so that variations in conventions and understandings across the anglosphere do not interfere with adoption.
As regards the German roots: again, I speak a decent amount of German and it is in my family ancestry (Plattdeutsche); I have been in Germany and Austria and Switzerland ridden the railways and the S-bahn and U-bahn of Munich; but I still cannot decipher many of these icon acronyms and some intersections so resemble others that I cannot make them fit Canadian railways. The icon names would not be an issue if they were wholly hidden in the template code, but they are not. They are a legacy issue in and of themselves. This started as a translation project, but there is resistance to biting the bullet of getting these translated and moving on with it. Expanding the arsenal of icons is going to depend upon making them intuitive. Heck -- some still require use of an umlaut or two to invoke them and Americans cannot type these symbols on their keyboards. BeeTea 21:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that we need to review the naming of icons, but the Spoorstrip program enables a user to produce a map WITHOUT knowing what the names of the icons are!! Can it be made any simpler ... I do not think so. Spoorstrip is a very good program, and at least it has EVERY icon, which the Wikipedia:Route diagram template does NOT. Canterberry 01:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree. I think the existence of Spoorstrip should be considered a symptom of usability failure. When I write route diagrams, I do it with two browser windows tiled and lots of copy&pasting. If the icon names were English I would automatically start to memorize them... Vagary 00:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Spoorstrip is an excellent program, and the author HandigeHarry has produced an excellent tool for producing the maps. The problem is that so many new templates are being created that the program is struggling to stay current. At the very least, the program contains ALL of the icons, which cannot be said of this article (which has only around 85% of the total number at best). I use Spoorstrip to edit existing maps as well as create new ones. The idea of playing around with multiple windows is ridiculous when we have such a great program. I agree that we need to review the naming of icons, but I strongly reject the idea that Spoorstrip is no longer fit-for-purpose. I think we should work with HandigeHarry to get what we need. It is not his fault that the number of icons is growing faster than he can update the program. Canterberry 00:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
No one is saying Spoorstrip is not an excellent program. I'm sure it is -- and I have not even tried it yet. As I noted below, I did a rail line by hand last night and it took 4 hours. What I think we are saying is that route diagrams have become so arcane, intricate and fiddly that it is insane to try to do one without the aid of special software and it should not have to be that difficult. It is only going to get worse if we do not pause for full assessment and realignment. As you yourself say, it is "struggling to stay current", so how much further dare we to push it? Again: this began as a translation project, but somewhere along the way the translators stopped translating and began expanding and implementing instead, prematurely. BeeTea 02:06, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
That last sentence is unreasonable. For a long time the pages described this as a 'translation in progress as it was still under development in Germany and possibly unstable' (not a quote!). I think what happened was that English editors got fed up of waiting, and previously uninvolved contributors (such as me) caught the bug and the maps (and new icons) started flowing, regardless of whether Germany were 'ready' or not. And the canal maps grew ten times as fast...there was a need that was not being met, so action ws taken. Consider it 'being bold' if you like.
EdJogg 09:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Absolute RUBBISH. Your argument is weak. You have no experience of Spoorstrip, yet you say that you are sure that it is "excellent". The argument that we do not need third party software is also poor. The number of icons demands that we need to be able to draw maps knowing what icons look like, rather than knowing their names. You have countered your own argument. Surely, if we struggle to identify icons by their name (and number) then we need something to assist, and that means a computer program ... and lo and behold we have one ... called ... SPOORSTRIP. I note that my claim that this article does not have all of the icons has been ignored. You need a stronger argument to convince me that this is not some ego oriented quest for Nirvana. Canterberry 02:55, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, I only said "I am sure it is excellent" because you just accused me of trying to say that it was "no longer fit-for-purpose" or that it was somehow the author's fault. No one has spoken a word against the fellow. But, Canterberry, since you have no user page of your own and your Talk page says merely: "Like 99% of wikipedians, I don't contribute much, just edit what others have done, and be critical of the efforts of others. I suppose you could call me a "troll", and you would be right, but we are the majority", then you'll have to pardon me if I don't quite know what to make of you. BeeTea 03:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
If wiki text was supposed to be edited by third-party programs, we'd all be using HTML. As it is, Spoorstrip is less usable than making the diagrams in SVG, because fewer computers have Spoorstrip installed than SVG editors. Our goal must be inline editing by non-expert editors: if that cannot be achieved with templates then we should drop this project and work on a MediaWiki extension. Vagary 02:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I did Corridor (VIA) last night. It took four hours. And I've ridden parts of that route my whole life. Problems: two groups of icons are used to show cross-links with subways -- SBHF series and UTurmBHFo. I think one group must be for surface trains (S-bahn) and the other group for true subways (U-bahn). Okay. So first off the U-bahns cannot use blue because this is the colour of rivers and canals and this will conflict with that series of icons. And green is for footpaths and trails (the colour of the "S" in the station). How do we handle other means of transport where these are integrated with the rail network? For example: ferries in Switzerland are an integral part of the SBB in places; ferries in Austria are optional connections, but most railway stations allow for bicycle rentals; in Canada, VIA operates autobus networks on the highways to make up for cancelled train services and as shuttles, but there are no deliberate linkages with other rail services but only incidental crossings, such as with metro subway systems or commuter trains, because VIA views them as competition; AMTRAK in the USA is highly unintegrated with any other mode of transport. I'm digressing, but .... BeeTea 01:46, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
As for the colours, we need greater control over them so specific transportation subprojects (at the national level, perhaps) can make their own legends. Vagary 02:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Amtrak isn't entirely disconnected from road service - Amtrak Thruway Bus service is sometimes integrated into specific train schedules, such as at the north end of the Pacific Surfliner. Slambo (Speak) 02:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay for the correction on Amtrak. But with VIA in Canada (and perhaps then Amtrak too), bus service is an extension of the train service and the busses go where the trains do not. If you buy a ticket for Point A to Point B and there is a bus section in there, then the train stops, everyone disembarks and climbs aboard a VIA bus and then the bus takes you to the next station. So I think that would be a red junction in a station with maybe a grey circle inside marked "B" and then a grey line continuing on to signify bus service on an asphalt/tarmack highway surface. BeeTea 03:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

What's happening in other namespaces? According to fr:Discussion Wikipédia:Modèle_BS, the Dutch already translated all their icons and so have the French and they are rewriting their templates too. HandigeHarry has already weighed in there and says Spoorstrip will work with all templates and icons in both those other languages. So the problem would be ....?? BeeTea 03:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking it up! That pretty much settles it, eh?
It's worth noting that the most simplistic use of {{BSf}}, which was made to demonstrate icon composition, is to provide abstraction of the actual icon names. This would allow only the Spoorstrip and template authors to need to worry what the icons are named on commons. :) Vagary 05:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, unfortunately I've seen the following scenario all too often. A new person comes along and immediately advocates re-structuring all that has already been done. Because the proposer is new, he doesn't quite appreciate all of the way things fit together. Or, he starts, get distracted by Real Life, and never finishes. Or, the new design just isn't that good. I've seen it often enough that I'm just a little wary when someone arrives, and his first (or nearly first) observation is that everything needs to be re-done. That's what the "problem" would be. Marc Shepherd 07:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
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