Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Yugoslav submarine Mališan

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Hawkeye7 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 21:20, 28 October 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Yugoslav submarine Mališan[edit]

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Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (talk)

Yugoslav submarine Mališan (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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This is a first, an entirely post-WWII Yugoslav naval vessel. This one is an Italian 4-man midget sub captured by the Yugoslavs at the end of WWII and briefly used for training in the 1950s before becoming a museum ship in land-locked Zagreb in 1959. Controversially restored to her former appearance as CB-20 under the Italian flag in 2008–2009, she is the only vessel of her class in a fully restored condition inside and out, and you can even climb down into her and check her out inside. She owes her appearance here to the good work of Saxum some years ago, and my recent receipt of Zvonimir Freivogel's 2021 book on the 1945-1992 Yugoslav Navy. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:48, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright[edit]

Lead:

  • . Laid down in 1943 by the Caproni company in Milan as CB-20, she was ordered by the Italian Regia Marina (Royal Navy) for harbour defence and anti-submarine warfare tasks, but was incomplete at the time of the Italian surrender in September 1943.
Last clause: but,"wHo or "what" was incomplete?
She. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:26, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The submarine had been on display for almost fifty years before undergoing an extensive internal and external restoration beginning in 2008 involving collaboration between the museum, Maritime Institute, the University of Zagreb and private contractors.
  • Think about substituting "with" for involving?
  • Change between to "among" or "amongst"
The most common use for among is when something is in or with a group of a few, several, or many things. The most common use of between is when something is in the middle of two things or two groups of things.
That's a new one for me. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Design and construction:

  • The steel used for the outer hull was not of high quality.
Who said this and why?
Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:27, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The single rudder was of the semi-balanced type, as were the diving planes.
Is a comma needed after type?
Reworded. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The outer light hull tapered to the stern aft of the conning tower, the boat had a straight keel to facilitate transport by road and rail, and had two side keels to enable the boat to rest on the sea bottom while waiting for a target.
Should "boat" be "boats"
Yes, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early boats of the class were deployed to the Black Sea, where they had some successes against submarines of the Soviet Black Sea Fleet.[1]
Why the comma after Sea?
Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only two torpedoes could be carried, and reloading could only be conducted with assistance, as the launching cylinders at the rear of the torpedo tubes had to be removed to insert a fresh torpedo into the tube.[5]
Why the comma after assistance?
Deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maximum speed was 7.5 knots (13.9 km/h; 8.6 mph) surfaced and 6 kn (11 km/h; 6.9 mph) when underwater.[4][5]
Maximun speed of what? -> The preceding sentence refers to boats of the class...?
  • Surfaced, at a speed of 7.5 kn (13.9 km/h; 8.6 mph) the boat had a range of only 450 nautical miles (830 km; 520 mi), at 5 kn (9.3 km/h; 5.8 mph) the range was 1,400 nmi (2,600 km; 1,600 mi).[5][a]
  • To me, this sentence is awkword to read since the "subject" of it is buried in the sentence.
  • BTW, the first part of the sentemcce uses the indefiite aticles but the last part uses the definite article?
  • Submerged, at a speed of 3 kn (5.6 km/h; 3.5 mph) the boat had a range of 60 nmi (110 km; 69 mi).[4][5]
Same as above
I think I've addressed these as well, thanks Pendright. See what you think so far? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:44, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: More to follow - expect to finish in a few days. Pendright (talk) 21:49, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Service history:

  • At some point between September and October 1944, CB-20 was relocated to the naval base of Pola, where it was captured by the Yugoslav Army (JA) – formerly the Yugoslav Partisans – on 2 May 1945.[4]
  • of Pola or "at" Pola?
  • Drop the comma after Pola.
These are done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:37, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the time of the JA capture of Pola, CB-20's crew attempted to escape, but the boat was damaged by German magnetic mines at the entrance to the harbour, and was forced to return.
Drop the comma after harbour or add "it" between and & was
Did something like that. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:37, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • During her [period of] repairs, the shipyard drew plans of the boat [to] , possibly in order to build more midget submarines for the Yugoslav Navy (JRM),[7] but this did not occur until the Una-class submarines were built in the 1980s.[10]
Consider the above changes
Went with a different formulation, hopefully better. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:37, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Due to her small size and difficulty of detection, Mališan had to release air bubbles to indicate her position to the patrol boat crews.
How about this -> Mališan had to release air bubbles to indicate her position to the patrol boat crews, due to her small size and difficulty of detection.
  • On occasion, senior Yugoslav navy and army officers were brought aboard Mališan.
Tell readers why
  • Due to ongoing maintenance difficulties, Mališan was stricken on 30 September 1957.[9]
stricken from "what"?

Aftermath:

  • Her conning tower was removed for rail transport, and the final leg of her journey to Zagreb was on a tank transporter.[11]
Consider substitutng another pronoun or noun for either of the her's
  • This now allows visitors to climb down through an original hatch into the submarine.
Is now needed?
  • According to the Technical Museum, in 2011 CB-26 was incomplete and had been restored in an "inappropriate way" (neodgovarajući način),[4] and the Croatian defence and security journalist Boris Švel [hr] reported in 2013 that the interior of CB-26 was in complete disrepair.[12]
Switch "in 2011" to follow incomplte
  • The restoration work was a collaboration between the Technical Museum, the Maritime Institute, the Faculty of Mechanical Engineering and Naval Architecture of the University of Zagreb and the companies Baština d.o.o. and EPO-Oroslavje, and was supervised by the senior restorer at the Technical Museum, Zoran Kirchhoffer.
  • Change between to among
  • Swith the and after Zagreb to a comma
  • Change last clause to -> and "it" was supervised by oran Kirchhoffer. the senior restorer at the Technical Museum.
  • The Technical Museum unofficially asserted that the Italian appearance had "greater historical relevance" and the boat had a "more reliably documented history under its original name and flag", but after visiting the exhibit in 2013, Švel observed that the former explanation was hard to accept given that while the Italians had over twenty boats of the class in service, Yugoslavia had only one.
Drop the comma after 2013
All the above addressed now. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He recommended that the information board alongside CB-20 be expanded to include more information about its Yugoslav service.[12]
Did anything come from the recommendation?
Unsure, unfortunately he died that year, so perhaps no-one followed up. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Peacemaker67: This is it - Pendright (talk) 00:57, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
G'day Pendright. Thanks so much for your review, they always result in improved grammar and clarity. See what you think of my edits in response to the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:53, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Peacemaker67: Supporing - it's always nice to work with you! Regards, Pendright (talk) 23:07, 15 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA[edit]

  • "Her main armament consisted of two 450 mm (17.7 in) external torpedo tubes" mm should be written fully here.
Ok, done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's a good idea to add how the Yugoslavs captured the ship in the lead? At the moment it creates the question how they've caputured her.
Fair enough. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "According to the naval historian Zvonimir Freivogel" Might be handy to add the nationality of them?
To be fair, I don't know enough about him. Presumably Yugoslav-Austrian, but I'm not sure. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:07, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with a 3 m (9 ft 10 in) beam and had" Compound adjective here.
  • "According to the naval historian Zvonimir Freivogel" Same as above?
  • "She was completed by March 1944 with the" Where was she completed?
  • "and a 7.92 mm (0.31 in) machine gun" Compound adjective here.
  • "consisted of two 450 mm (17.7 in) external torpedo tubes located on the sides" mm should be written fully here.

That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 07:23, 21 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done I reckon, CPA-5! Thanks for taking a look! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:29, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries. ARC noms are at the moment in bad shape and taking way too long to pass them if you compare them with our noms at least a year ago. I remember the golden times where we used to pass at least 15 ARCs a month. Anyway now that I have some spare time I can review again. :) Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 20:10, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass[edit]

  • All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted.
  • I would suggest swapping the two images, so that the one at the top of the page in the infobox illustrates the current condition of the Mališan.

Gog the Mild (talk) 11:57, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Given the Yugoslav focus, I’d prefer to keep it as is. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:13, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

The sources all seem to me to be appropriately reliable and I can see no formatting issues. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:03, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Give me a ping once the CPA review is wrapped up and I'll have a look through the prose. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:04, 24 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thanks Gog. Hit me up with your comments. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:30, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""Wikipedia uses sentence case for ... entries in infoboxes ...", which I take to mean starting all entries with an upper-case letter.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early boats of the class were deployed to the Black Sea". Is it known when? (I have a source which talks a little of the Soviet reaction to them and of a clash with Soviet destroyers.)
Yes, mid-1942. Added. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:00, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a World War II German puppet state". i don't see this in the main article - which would benefit from it.
Hi Gog. Do you mean the class article, or the ISR one? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:36, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean that you write "a World War II German puppet state" in the lead, and I would expect to see this at least repeated, if not expanded on, in the main article; the lead after all being just a summary of the main article. I would have expected this after mention of "the Italian Social Republic (RSI)" in "Service history".
Ah, of course, Silly me. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 16:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was there a generator for battery recharging?
The batteries were charged by the diesel engine while the boat was surfaced. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:26, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps mention this?
Sure. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 16:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2007, the Technical Museum decided to restore the boat". Given the previous sentence, it may be worth clarifying which boat we are talking about.
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:29, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph of Aftermath is a bit long; break it somewhere?
Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:31, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Nice. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thanks Gog. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 16:17, 28 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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