Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Oswald Watt

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The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Oswald Watt[edit]

Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk)
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Nominating this article for A-Class review because I believe it's a comprehensive look at a particularly interesting figure in Australian aviation, born in England and joining the French Foreign Legion as a pilot before transferring to the Australian Flying Corps, someone who was clearly well-known in his time but less so now, despite his legacy of the still-extant Oswald Watt Gold Medal for outstanding achievement in aviation. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As years rolled by

I had difficulty keeping track of which years some dated occurrences happened. For instance, the year that the Battle of Cambrai happened would be useful to ignorant colonials like mine self. And there are some others.

Other than that, article seemed lively enough and well written.

Georgejdorner (talk) 05:18, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tks George, I've always tended to only give a full date when the year changes but could probably afford to reiterate the year a little more often - done so. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:08, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
    • No problems reported with alt text, dab links, or external links. Well Done!
    • More comments to follow. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:38, 17 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments - very interesting article, just a few comments:

  • "He went back to Australia in 1900 to join the Militia" - this sentence comes off as if Watt's sole intention of returning to Australia was to join the militia. Is that correct?
    • Good call, will change to "and joined the Militia".
  • Is it known why the family originally moved to Australia?
    • Unfortunately none of the bios in the SMH obit, Stephens or Cutlack go into this. The ADB implies a possible connection between his mother's death and the move, which I've reflected.
  • Could it be clarified/expanded upon when Watt when to the UK for his MA and his subsequent return to Australia?
    • Apart from what's already there about earning the MA in 1904, ditto prev.
  • What did he do in Eqypt? Fly around for the joy of it, fly commercially ...?
    • Ditto prev. I can clarify that he bought the Bleriot there, so since he gained employment with them subsequently in France it appears he flew for proficiency as much as anything, but of course I can't confirm the last bit.
      • Licked his wounds after his very public divorce case, I suspect. Nick-D (talk) 08:50, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Heh, yep, that too - like the time a mate of mine felt compelled to go on an African safari after his divorce, which wasn't even public... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known when he had been originally promoted to captain in the militia?
    • Fair question. It's no doubt in his service record at the NAA but you know I prefer not to cite that if possible. Will re-check other sources and see if I've overlooked it somewhere.
  • "after he and his observer crash-landed in no man's land and succeeding in making" - shouldn't that be "succeeded" ...?
    • Certainly should - tks.
  • Are there any further details available on his Croix de guerre, Mentions in Despatches or OBE?
    • Not a sausage in bios, Gazette or AWM (or even in the NAA service record if I remember rightly).
      • This story in The Argus appears to have the full citation for the Croix de guerre. Nick-D (talk) 08:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Tks Nick, except it looks like the Legion d'honneur, which I already have. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it known why/how he acquired the nickname of "Toby"?
    • Broken record time I'm afraid - nope!

Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 09:20, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tks for review, Bryce. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Taken care of pretty well everything above that I think can be taken care of. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:04, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Geez! No wonder he has fallen into obscurity; no source provides detailed information on half his life! Anyway, changed to support. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:00, 19 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think it's really only the years between 1904 and 1911 that are thin on detail, and I'd say running multiple cattle stations in two states plus being in the Militia would occupy a fair bit of his time there. The rest of his life is well covered I think—not that common in my experience to find citations for MiDs, OBEs and foreign decorations, it's the Commonwealth awards for gallantry that usually score those... Anyway, tks again for review (and support)! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That was more meant as a joke pertaining to the questions above, as I do believe you have done a good job with the article and it is comprehensive; hence the support. Regarding the citations, while it isn't that common for the Second World War or further to discover these—until modern times that is (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc)—it is rather common to find copies of the citations for quite a number of awards at the AWM and, depening on the type of award among other things, in the London Gazette or even in service records, though the latter is rather uncommon unless they are an extract from the London Gazette. For example, with Harry Murray there are copies of the recommendations for his CMG, Croix de guerre and some Mentions available, among his other gallantry awards. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 06:16, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Remember that in this case his foregin honours came while he was still in the Foreign Legion, rather than in British/Australian service, you'd probably have to track down his French service record (if it exists) to find the citations! A lot of British records, including British Army gallantry citations from the First World War, and the majority of British Army other ranks' record went up in smoke in the Second World War when the building they were stored in was hit by German bombs (see [1]. Samples of British Army records (which include the original citations for a lot of Australian WWII awards) exist from 1935 to 1950, from 1950 on all surive, and include awards to Australians for Korea and Vietnam, see [2]. David Underdown (talk) 10:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Yet another great article Ian. I've got a few comments:
    • Watt's travels in his early years are a bit confusing - am I right in reading the article to say he was in England in 1911 and back in Australia in 1912?
      • That's my understanding, though no one source says "he got his certificate in England in 1911, then came back to Oz to recommend a site for CFS in 1912" - I have different sources for those two acts. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Heh, I tell a lie, the SMH obit does explicitly mention returning to Oz after getting his flying certificate in 1911 - altered accordingly... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The National Library of Australia's wonderful Trove search turns up a lot of digitalised newspaper articles on Watt. These are particularly useful for his divorce case, which received fairly extensive coverage. I suspect that this article explains why - his wife started divorce proceedings "alleging misconduct with a number of women unknown to the petitioner in Sydney and Melbourne and with Miss Ivy Shilling, at Sydney, between December 18, 1911 and July 1, 1912". According to this story (in the Hobart Mercury!) the affair with Shilling was proven and Watt lost custody of his child (there's a longer, but harder to read story on the findings here). These would be much better sources that the rather gossipy NZ newspaper article.
      • Heh, I went though scores of newspaper articles in NLA and GoogleNews and finally decided I had enough, but will check these out in due course. I agree the NZ Truth is trashy (yet clever - what's changed?!) which is why I didn't overplay it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Replaced NZ Truth ref with The Mercury, and reworded/expanded. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • This book, while hardly unconnected to Watt, might be useful for filling in some of the gaps. Nick-D (talk) 08:40, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tks Nick, might check this out if I decide to push this to FAC (I'm not planning to at the moment). Tks for review/support! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • No worries Ian - the article is looking fantastic. I agree that there probably isn't quite the depth of coverage needed for this to comfortably reach FA status, but I'd give it an A+ ;) Nick-D (talk) 10:40, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support:

  • Early career, "while there he also met leading". Is the "also" really necessary? This one comment doesn't negate my support, as this is another great Australian article! Nice work, Dana boomer (talk) 01:07, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tks Dana - implemented your suggestion. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:17, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support TomStar81 (Talk) 03:39, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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