Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 24

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November 24

Leblebicioglu

How do you pronounce that surname? What does it mean? How common is it? Which ethnicity? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 03:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Where did you see it? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's Turkish. The suffix -oğlu means "son of": see "Turkish name#Surnames". — SMUconlaw (talk) 05:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

And a search on the surname Leblebici brings it up in Turkish-language texts and paired with Turkish first names. -- Deborahjay (talk) 06:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Turkish pronunciation: [leblebidʒioːʼlu] /ləbləbɪdʒɪɔːˈluː, -oʊˈluː/--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:54, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Leblecioğlu means "son of leblebici, that is a master of making leblebi".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 07:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Languages in which it is (somewhat) possible to write down simple melodies

Earlier this year, there was a thread on the popular Thai forum Pantip.com asking for the identification of an opera song that included a line that went "ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha", sung by a woman. Within ten minutes, the first reply had correctly given the answer as the Queen of the Night Aria from Mozart's the Magic Flute, much to the amazement of the Thai online community.[1] Now this might sound rather amazing, but it really isn't. Being a tonal language with clear distinction between short and long syllables, the query "ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ฮะ ห่า" [háʔ háʔ háʔ háʔ háʔ háʔ háʔ háʔ hàː], when spoken aloud, actually sounds almost exactly like how it is sung in the aria. Similar threads also exist asking about various pop songs with lines consisting of na na na and other non-lexical vocables.

My question is, in what other languages is this conveying of melody through normal writing (not musical notation) also possible? Are most tonal languages able to satisfy this example? I'm guessing such is the case with the closely related Tai languages, but what about other Asian languages like Chinese or Vietnamese, or those of Africa? What about non-tonal languages? Is it even possible there? --Paul_012 (talk) 09:26, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Check out Whistled language. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 12:26, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

See also Solfège and, more broadly, Solmization--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 07:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Word understanding problem

Mya stands for ‘million years ago’. What does Ma stand for? It seems to me that Ma and mya means the same after reading some of Wikipedia articles. What is correct anyways?

Billions years, I assume Ga, and bya - billion years ago?

Reason for questioning: Ma and mya and or Ga and bya is used in the same paragraph, in different sentences.

(Russell.mo (talk) 13:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

Ma in this context means mega-annum, from Latin 'annus' year, and likewise Ga means giga-annum. So yes both Ma and mya stand for a million years, but mya specifically refers to a time relative to the present, while Ma just means a million-year period in any context. If this is used in a Wikipedia article, I think these abbreviations should not be used without writing them out the first time (or using a wikilink/note). - Lindert (talk) 13:52, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello Lindert 'Mya' and 'bya' stands for 'million years ago' and 'billion years ago'. Ma/Ga, I understand what you said (1 million/billion years), I also reassured, though in one of WP article's paragraph it says, confuses by mixing the abbreviation with it's bracketed definition. I guess I have to take your word for it. So, just for clarification, when they say '5Ma (million years ago)' and '5Ga (billion years ago)' instead of '5 mya' and '5 bya' what should I think to myself? (both means the same thing?) -- (Russell.mo (talk) 19:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

I wouldn't use bya, does it mean 1e9 or 1e12 years ago? Ga has a specific meaning that's unambiguous 1e9 years. Dja1979 (talk) 23:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean, guessing 1e12 years ago. I'll provide you some reference, you can clear your thoughts. bya, Gya, Myr, Gyr, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year#SI_prefix_multipliers... Read it, they differ... -- (Russell.mo (talk) 08:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

Spelling/pronunciation

What’s the Arabic spelling/pronunciation of Pharoah? Is it Fir’awn? -- (Russell.mo (talk) 13:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

فرعون

KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 14:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Could you pronounce it with English word if you don't mind please? -- (Russell.mo (talk) 18:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

فِرْعَوْن (firʿawn) Contact Basemetal here 18:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Surprising! I was right... Thanks Basemetal. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

I am fairly sure I hear it as "fir'awna" with a short 'a' at the end (a short 'a' is usually written at the end of a word in Arabic (usually as a 't'), but bizarrely in this case, it isn't. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 18:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Where? Contact Basemetal here 18:51, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Might do when its catching the next word/letter by jumping the full stop KageTora. Reassure yourself though! -- (Russell.mo (talk) 18:56, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

Keep in mind that the middle letter in Arabic represents a pharyngeal consonant sound, IPA [ʕ]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 20:23, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Resolved

Word: Effective and Affective

I always either (mostly) forget the meanings or get confused with these words no matter how many times I use the dictionary to find the meanings. I’ll be happy if someone can fill the following sentence – the best way I guess I’ll remember, or tell me a way to remember…

• Penetration is _____________ (affective/effective).
• You are __________ my emotions (affecting/effecting).

Another one i.e, (Wholly/Holy) -------------------- shit!! – Which one?

(Russell.mo (talk) 13:41, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

1) most likely effective if you mean penetration works, but affective if you mean it triggers an emotional response;

2) most likely effecting if you mean someone is changing your emotional state, but affecting if you mean generating strong emotion in your emotions (redundant);

3) wholly if you mean completely, or holy if you mean sacred.--Jeffro77 (talk) 15:26, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There is really only one correct word that could be used in each of those blanks in 99.9% of the situations in which those expressions could be used. It is remotely possible to conceive of situations in which a user might choose the other possibility, but we should not confuse the person asking the question by equating rare or bizarre usages with overwhelmingly predominant ones. Affective means having to do with emotions. In most cases, you would say "Penetration is effective" if you mean it works. The utterance penetration is affective means something like "penetration is an expression of emotions" or "penetration is emotional". Because affective is a somewhat uncommon word and likely to be confused with effective in that utterance, most English speakers would say "penetration is emotional", not "penetration is affective". Anyway, the word you are almost certainly looking for in the first sentence is effective. In the second sentence, the only sane option is affecting. In that sentence, affecting means "having an influence on," or even "changing". Effecting means providing the necessary and sufficient causes to make something happen. Only a speaker verging on borderline personality disorder would believe that another person could be solely responsible for the speaker's emotions. Even then, unless the speaker with borderline personality was not a native English speaker, he or she would be much more likely to say "You are causing my emotions" or "You are responsible for my emotions", because effecting would likely be confused with affecting in that utterance. Finally, the interjection Holy shit! is always and only used with the word holy. It is possible to imagine that someone, when asked what the brown substance flooding the basement was, might want to say excitedly that it was pure shit, or "wholly shit", but that is not a very idiomatic use of the word wholly. Also, because a speaker wouldn't want to be misunderstood to utter the very common interjection Holy shit!, which would not be an answer to the question, "What is that stuff?", the speaker would be much more likely to say "Pure shit" or "Nothing but shit". Marco polo (talk) 16:06, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I second that emotion. The right answers are "effective", "affecting" and "Holy". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:59, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jeffro77, Marco polo and Baseball Bugs, mainly for the bright acknowledgement No thanks for embarrassing me indirectly Marco polo

Resolved

I suspect you don't know the meaning of 'acknowledgement'. Contact Basemetal here 19:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

@Basemetal:

Before checking the dictionary: Acknowledgement means when you gained a knowledge/information and understood.

After checking the dictionary:

Google translate: "acceptance of the truth or existence of something". "the action of expressing or displaying gratitude or appreciation for something". and so on.

Cambridge advanced learning dictionary: "accepting that something is true or right". "something given to thank someone for what they have done". "a letter or email to say that something has been received". "a short text at the beginning or end of a book where the writer names people or other works that have helped in writing the book".

Pocket Oxford Dictionary: "recognise" and so on.

I'm still guessing I'm right (in a way)

(Russell.mo (talk) 19:28, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

You thanked Jeffro77, Marco Polo and Baseball Bugs "for the bright acknowledgement" but I'm puzzled as to what acknowledgement they gave you. To acknowledge does not mean to gain or to impart knowledge. Contact Basemetal here 19:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The root of the term "acknowledge" can be stretched almost that far,[2] but in modern usage it typically means to confirm receipt of something, such as a message. In radio and electronics lingo, "acknowledge" means "I got it" or "I copy" or "I heard what you said." "Negative acknowledgment" means "No copy" or "I didn't get it" or "I couldn't make out what you were saying." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

True! -- (Russell.mo (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

I think Russell has got enough problems with English. He doesn't need to be confused with etymological information going back to Middle English. Do you recall giving Russell any acknowledgement (let alone a "bright" one)? He thanked you for one. Would you say his use of the word was appropriate? Contact Basemetal here 20:18, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I would say his thanking someone is the actual "acknowledgment". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:24, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanking altogether in one go! With all the words in together! -- (Russell.mo (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

So you're saying he's thanking you for thanking you? Contact Basemetal here 20:29, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

What he intends to do is to acknowledge them by saying "thank you" to them. He's just not using "acknowledge" in a normal way. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

True! I’ll look up the dictionary next time… -- (Russell.mo (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

Sorry, I didn't mean to embarrass anyone, directly or indirectly. I am overly factual and sometimes unintentionally blunt. Please understand that no offense was intended. Marco polo (talk) 20:10, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Its alright, no need to apologise Marco polo, I was joking. After viewing Basemetal and Baseball Bugs, I realised how powerful a word can be, and how a person would conceive it/react to it.

Well, this was a 'bright' knowledge. Next time, I’ll think before I write… Thanks! -- (Russell.mo (talk) 08:05, 25 November 2014 (UTC))