Wikipedia:Peer review/Ricketts Glen State Park/archive1

Ricketts Glen State Park[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
We've listed this article for peer review because we believe that it is ready for Feature Article status and are seeking some feedback before it is moved to FAC. This article is similar to other PA state park FA articles like Worlds End State Park, Leonard Harrison State Park, Cherry Springs State Park, Black Moshannon State Park and several others. We ~~know that alt texts need to be completed, but other than that we~~ believe it is pretty much ready to go. Any feedback, comments and recommendations are, as always, appreciated.

Thanks, Dincher (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2010 (UTC) and Ruhrfisch[reply]

Finetooth comments: This looks very good, and I agree that it is about ready for FAC. I need to run some errands, so I'm going to post my comments in two batches. Here is the first batch, and I plan to add a second batch later today.

Alt text

I'm not sure if it matters, but WP:ALT suggests putting the alt parameter before the caption parameter in the image markup. I notice that the order is reversed in this article. Does the reversal perhaps confuse the screen readers?

I am pretty sure that I fixed them all. Some alt texts are still not appearing. My vote is to get rid of them altogether if they are no longer required. Dincher (talk) 22:02, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

THey all work on my monitor. Sometimes a space between the equal sign and the alt text seems to cause trouble with the alt viewer, so I took out all those spaces. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I use Internet Explorer and work and at home. The not working alt texts are consistent on both computers. Off the top of my head I know that the Indian pot and old aerials of the lakes don't work. Dincher (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Add the old timey illustration and you have all the alt texts that I can't see, Dincher (talk) 23:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

"Improvements since becoming a state park include a new dam for the 245-acre (99 ha) Lake Jean, breaching two other dams Ricketts built, trail improvements, and a fire tower." - To avoid repeating "improvements" and the slightly awkward "since becoming", which seems to modify "improvements", I might suggest "Improvements to Rickett's Glen since it became a state park include a new dam for the 245-acre (99 ha) Lake Jean, the breaching of two other dams Ricketts built, trail modifications, and a fire tower." Or something like that.

I would not link "hiking", "camping", "hunting", "swimming", or "fishing" because I think most readers of English will already know what they mean. Some of the others, like "ice climbing" seem fine with links because they are less common.

"downstream in Ricketts Glen there are four to six named waterfalls, depending on the source" - "Source" here is a bit ambiguous since it might be taken to mean the source of the water rather than the source of the names. Could "depending on the source" be simply deleted since the explanation appears in the main text?

done, done and done. Dincher (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Early inhabitants

"which is less than 0.4 miles (0.64 km) northwest of the park" - Since "less than" is non-specific, should 0.64 km be rounded to 0.6 km?

I agree but the 0.64 is produced by the convert template and I don't know how to work around it. Dincher (talk) 22:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I rounded it to 1 decimal place by adding "|1" at the end of the convert template {{convert|0.4|mi|1}} Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:06, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Modern era

"Only the last three were actually built" - Should this sentence specify where they were (are)? Lake Jean, I think.

Not fixed. Not sure how to fix it. Dincher (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it to Only the last three were actually built, all south of Lake Jean; the Hayfield area north of Lake Jean was to have had the facilities for golf and tennis, ... Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The DCNR has named Ricketts Glen one of "Twenty Must-See Pennsylvania State Parks", citing its status as a National Natural Landmark, old-growth forest, and many waterfalls." - Perhaps a bit smoother would be "The DCNR has named Ricketts Glen one of "Twenty Must-See Pennsylvania State Parks", citing its old-growth forest and many waterfalls and its status as a National Natural Landmark."

Fixed. Dincher (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ecology

"Prior to the arrival of William Penn and his Quaker colonists in 1682, it has been estimated that up to 90 percent of what is now Pennsylvania was covered with woods" - Since the estimate was made after the arrival of Penn, perhaps this would be slightly better: "It has been estimated that prior to the arrival of William Penn and his Quaker colonists in 1682 up to 90 percent of what is now Pennsylvania was covered with woods:"

Changed. Dincher (talk) 22:27, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Glens Natural Area

"Hiking the entire Glens area on the Falls Trail loop, beginning and ending at PA 118 is 7.2 miles (11.6 km)." - Maybe rather than "hiking ... is", "hiking ... covers"?

changed. Dincher (talk) 22:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"For a shorter hike, one may park at Lake Rose," - To avoid using "one" as a pronoun, perhaps "A shorter hike involves parking at Lake Rose... "?

Changed. Dincher (talk) 22:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"It is possible to see all of the waterfalls except the two near the highway by hiking around the triangular area: Highland Trail / Glen Leigh / Ganoga Glen. The distance around the triangle is about 3.2 miles (5.1 km). An optional side trip from Waters Meet along the three falls in the top of Ricketts Glen, then back to Waters Meet, adds 0.5 miles (0.80 km)." - This might fall into the category of "unnecessary detail" in such a long article.

Not sure what to do with this Dincher (talk) 22:36, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tightened it by adding the 3.2 mile to the first mention of the triangular loop, and adding a much shorter version of the all but two on the triangle or within 0.5 mile south. Hopefully this is better? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Finetooth (talk) 03:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wildlife

"Less common creatures include Beaver, Bobcats, Coyote," - Why plural for Bobcats and singular for Coyote? Same question for others in the list.

This is my Pennsylvania upbringing coming out and my lack of interest in learnin' what's right. I honestly don't know. I just typed 'em like I say 'em. Dincher (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For consistency I made all references to a species singular, though things like "39 Fishers" remain. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 00:22, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Beaver and River Otter have all been successfully reintroduced." - Delete "all" since only two are listed?

Fixed. Dincher (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"39 fishers were released in the State Game Lands" - Should "fishers" start with a capital F for consistency within the article?

Fixed. Dincher (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The White-tailed deer became the official state animal... ". - Should this be White-tailed Deer for consistency? Sorry to dwell on these. Wikipedia seems to have no consistent naming conventions for wild things; I just look for internal consistency.

Fixed. Dincher (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cabins, camping, swimming, and picnics

"All cabin renters need to bring their own... " - Shorten by a couple of words to "Cabin renters must bring their own... "?

Fixed.

More to come. Finetooth (talk)

Thanks for the comments. I will work on them this afternoon/evening. Dincher (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thanks very much for your copyedits and comments, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I made the changes I could make and noted the ones I couldn't thanks again! Dincher (talk) 22:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have made all the changes Dincher was not sure about. Not sure what else to do about alt texts. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:43, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The alt texts look fine in the alt-text viewer above except for the gallery (montage), but I don't think alt text can be added to galleries. Finetooth (talk) 02:57, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you can add alt text - it used to be the word "waterfall" repeated 24 times, then was blank. I just added a very brief description of the montage and hope I do not have to retype all the text labels. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Niagara

Should the townships that Ricketts Glen is located in be included in the geobox?

Right now, that is all I see; I'll take a fresh look at in the morning. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 02:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we left the twps. out on purpose some years ago whenever we went through and made consistent leads and added infoboxes for the parks. The reasoning for now twps. in the infobox was that there are so many. (I think). --Dincher (talk) 02:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the Geobox tweaks and pointing this out. I checked and all the PA state parks FAs have the township(s) in the Geobox, so I added them in (all five). I have no idea what we would do for Bucktail State Park Natural Area (17 municipalities in 2 counties) or Laurel Ridge State Park (15 municipalities if I counted right, but 4 counties). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose we'll cross bridge when we get to it. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 02:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should "Cold War era" have a hyphen? (Cold War-era)
"10,144 acres (4,105 ha) of the park are open to hunting and trapping."
- Is there a better way to word this so that the number isn't at the beginning of the sentence?

There wasn't much more to be commented on or about. I'm pretty sure this is the longest state park article so far. Niagara ^{Don't give up the ship} 02:00, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Second batch of Finetooth comments: This is an excellent article, certainly comprehensive, wonderfully illustrated. The big map at the bottom is terrific. Aside from the waterfalls, I especially like the images of the red canoes, the black pot, and the visitor center, none of which I had seen before. Because of the article's length, I tried to suggest a few places where trimming might be possible without damaging the flow. This might result in a total reduction of 100 to 200 words or so; I didn't count, so I don't know exactly.

The article has no dabs, no dead urls. It has alt text. All of the image licenses look fine to me. The Flickr images are all CC-by-SA 2.0 generic; the other images not created by Wikipedia users are all age-related PD.

Modern era

"That same year, John Young in Hike Pennsylvania: An Atlas of Pennsylvania's Greatest Hiking Adventures wrote of the Falls Trail: "This is not only the most magnificent hike in the state, but it ranks up there with the top hikes in the East." - Since this sentence, including the direct quote, is repeated in the "Environmental education and trails" section, I would delete it here.
- Deleted, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Environmental education and trails

I think the first paragraph is another place that might be tightened. It might be compressed to something like this: "Environmental education specialists lead guided tours of parts of the park from March through November. The walks give school groups, scouting organizations, and other visitors a close and informed look at natural wetlands, old-growth forests, waterfalls, flora and fauna, and geologic formations. In summer and fall, park educators lead "Ghost Town Walks" to the ruins of the lumber village of Ricketts and to adjoining State Game Lands."
- Changed to your version - left in the animal safety to make it clearer some education programs are held in the park office. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In 2003, Backpacker Magazine named the park one of its 30 favorite day hikes in the contiguous United States." - A park isn't a hike. Did the magazine specify a route?
- It is the Falls Trail loop - clarified, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would italics rather than bolding for the list items, per WP:MOSBOLD.
Done, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"that passes through a stand of old-growth forest that includes an Eastern Hemlock" - Since "old-growth forest" is linked at least a couple of times earlier in the article, I would unlink it here.
- Done, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Works cited

Grasping for straws, all I can think to recommend is that Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, not be linked in the Mitchell entry since it is linked in the Brown entry. Also, should the Petrillo entry include a place of publication?
- Also done, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will be happy to support when this goes to FAC. Please let me know when that happens in case I am snoozing. Finetooth (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your comments and edits - they are very helpful. Will address the rest tomorrow, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

All comments addressed, I believe - thanks again, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments and kind words. Dincher (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by MacD.

"..at least 10,000 BC. The first settlers in the state were Paleo-Indian nomadic hunters known from their stone tools.[6][7] The hunter-gatherers of the Archaic period, which lasted locally from 7000 to 1000 BC, used a greater variety…"

inconsistent use of commas in numbers

7,000 to 1,000 BC looked very odd, so I made it 10000 BC instead, although that looks somewhat odd too. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, the MOS says "Years are normally expressed in digits; a comma is not used in four-digit years (1988, not 1,988)." so I left the commas out of 7000 BC etc, but added a comma back to 10,000 BC. If you really think it should come out, please say so. Thanks and sorry to fip-flop here, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My personal preference is for consistency first and using commas second. However the question is not what do I prefer, but what is most likely to avoid unnecessary waffle at FAC? Arguably, 1000 is not a four-digit year but an indication of the era involved and could have a comma. I doubt anyone would think the hunter-gatherers had time-pieces that enabled them to arrive in exactly 7,000 BC and leave exactly six millennia later. I don't mind which method you use. Ben Mac Dui 07:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now no years have commas in them - will not change it again unless this is an issue at FAC. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

'the nominal control of the Iroquois, who lived in long houses,"

"who also lived in long houses" as you are repeating the info

Fixed, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" what is now New York."

there may be some protocol or other here, but non-US types might well assume this was the city. "what is now the state of New York"?

Used your text, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

American Revolutionary War isn't linked and I had to check to be sure I knew what you meant.

Linked now, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Image caption " Some park trees are estimated to be 500 to 900 years old" - "to be between 500 and 900" sounds better to me.

Used your wording, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The first inhabitant in the area whose name is known was Mr. Robinson, a hunter" It took me two goes to be sure I had understood this clause. ("is known was" foxed me) "The first inhabitant in the area whose name is known, was a Mr. Robinson, hunter" perhaps.

I tried recasting it as A hunter named Robinson was the first inhabitant in the area whose name is known; around 1800 he had a cabin... Hopefully this is better? Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Caption - "Ganoga Falls in 1875, a woodcut by John B. Bachelder" Is it possible that " Ganoga Falls in 1875" is the name of the artwork and should be italicised?

A reasonable guess, but the caption of the woodcut in Bachelder's book is "GANOGA FALLS, NORTH MOUNTAIN, PA." - the book was published in 1875. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" The Ricketts family was not aware of the glens and their waterfalls until about 1865," (!)

No less an authority than William Reynolds Ricketts, son of R. Bruce Ricketts wrote that. I also am surprised by it, and assume that the Native Americans had to know of the falls, and also assume the squatters did (as both their dams were very near the northernmost falls in each glen). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's odd that Robert Bruce Ricketts shrinks to R. Bruce and then just R. B. Surely he had one less formal style that could be used consistently?

He was almost always known as R. Bruce, so I used that throughout. There is a R.B. Ricketts waterfall, which is where I think we got the R.B. from. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Glen" is Scottish English. Is it in such common use that it's not worth mentioning its appearance here - or maybe we don't know why the word was chosen?

I have no reliable source that says why Ricketts chose the name "Glen", but there was a Scottish connection. Petrillo's book (p. 68) says The name “Rose” was a Ricketts family name in Scotland. The family can be traced to Kilvarock Castle, in Nairn, Scotland. I also know Ricketts renamed Long Pond to "Highland Lake" for a few years before changing the name to Ganoga Lake (from Tomasak's book, this fact is in the Ganoga Lake article). There is also Watkins Glen in New York state. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That would be Kilravock Castle. The occupants are Norman rather than genuinely Scottish, having arrived as late as the 13th century. I can see a property they used to own from my house. Might be worth mentioning the connection - to Kilravock that is, not me, notable tho' that is. Ben Mac Dui 06:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I linked glen on first use, and added the Clan Rose / Kilravock connnection in a note, along with the name Highland Lake. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It occurs to me that the metric units must be very tedious for you (and it is certainly annoying to read so many duplicates of very obvious information). I wonder aloud if there is not a potential wiki-solution to this so that we could just set a preference and read the article in our chosen system. There are no doubt hundreds of discussion pages about this somewhere.

Agreed that having this an option would be useful, but I do not know what else to do. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One wonders about the genuine value of these notional translations to modern currency values. Was Ricketts really so rich he could afford to spend $10 million on dams that didn't even work properly? The quote is wonderful tho'.

I also love the quote. According to Tomasak's book, at one point Ricketts owed nearly half a million dollars in mortgages and loans on his lands before the lumber operations saved him, so I think he was used to spending big (he spent about the same amount on the three dams). I have to work on the article on R. Bruce Ricketts before too long. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The Lake Jean dam had repairs in 1956" - surely "was repaired" or "required repairs" etc.

I used "was repaired" - thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" after remnants of a hurricane filled the lake to capacity. The remnants of the" - too many remnants

I changed the second sentence to The rest of the 1905 dam was removed in 1969. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't suppose the MOS police would allow "From the tower, eleven Pennsylvania counties can".. the present version begins "11 Pennsylvania" and reads as if it might be a road or something.

Three states (assume PA, NY and NJ) can also be seen, so I made it From the tower, three states and eleven Pennsylvania counties can be seen. which is OK under the MOS (number consistency). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" That same year local fire companies trained to rescue people injured in the park when icy conditions make reaching and transporting them especially treacherous. The sentence starts in an exciting way - "local fire companies trained to rescue people injured in the park" did what - ? something dramatic? Oh, I see, they were just trained.. ☹ Can we say something like "That same year training was undertaken by local fire companies.."?

Used your wording, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have never before heard of helicopters having had an "ecological advantage". I am not suggesting a change, although I'd be interested to know the carbon footprint

I believe that the reasoning was that the timber would be salvaged either way, but that helicopters required no new roads and heavy equipment in the forests, so the advantage was for the forests in the park. Even mules would probably have needed some new roads (higher methane emissions, less carbon dioxide than choppers). Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:11, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"50 years old, were rehabilitated." This isn't (common) GB English - rehabilitation is what happens to criminals here.

I used refurbished instead. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Surely "day trip" is overlinking?

delinked, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Tremendous pressure on the sediment caused the formation of the rocks" - you could say "Tremendous pressure caused the formation of the sedimentary rocks" in case a passing geologist has a moment's excitement and thinks the " Tremendous pressure" created metamorphic ones. (sedimentary is linked later).

Used your wording, thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" Wedding-cake falls descend in a series of small steps, forming waterfalls that are said to resemble a wedding cake." The second part of the sentence is absurdly obvious - not sure what to suggest - a note perhaps? - or just link wedding cake on first mention per bridal veil.

Moved the wedding cake link to first mention and removed the second part of the sentence, thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

" Many of the old-growth trees are believed to be over 500 years old, and ring counts on fallen trees have revealed ages over 900 years" GB English would be "of over 900 years"

Used the GB English (which sounds fine in AE too), thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Glens Natural Area " old-growth forest including giant Eastern White Pine, Eastern Hemlock, and oaks" - you told us that already in the section above.

Yes, but they are beautiful tres. Oh, OK, removed "including giant Eastern White Pine, Eastern Hemlock, and oaks". Left in size of old-growth forest as only place it is given, thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Caption - "White-tailed Deer" should be linked.

and now it is linked, I also liked Balck Bear in its caption - thanks Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I like them too ☺Ben Mac Dui 07:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let us know if you ever want to import some likable bears for introduction ;-) Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Important Boids - "Winter Wren" is dbl linked.

I removed the second Winter Wren as the first mention said about the same thing. Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Other programs are held in the park office, on topics such safety around wild animals" - missing "as"

added, thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't checked the refs. Ben Mac Dui 19:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much - we will work on all your points. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:01, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that all of your comments, which were very useful, have been responded to now - thanks again, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks yet again, to all reviewers, I think this is about ready for FAC. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 17:55, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My thanks too to the reviewers. Ben's comments were also amusing! Dincher (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]