Wikipedia:Peer review/George Hirst/archive1

George Hirst

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I am hoping to take it to FAC. The images still need a little work, but in the next day or two I will have added some high quality ones. I particularly want a check for cricket jargon, and any instances of it getting bogged down in statistics or a list of feats. Thanks, Sarastro1 (talk) 22:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: This looks a very thorough piece of work, which I will have to review in pieces; here are my first comments. Some of these you can take as suggestions rather than requests:-

Lead

• "from 1897 to 1909" → "between 1897 and 1909".
• "The Wisden Cricketer of the Year for 1901..." Surely "One of..."? Or didn't they do five then?
• I don't think cricketers "manage" runs or wickets. I'd say: "In Test matches his figures were..." (no comma)
• We have Hirst "emerging" for Yorkshire, and his bowling "re-emerging", which is a slightly awkward repetition. Perhaps you could say "his effectiveness as a bowler resumed when..."
• "to deliberately cause the ball to swing in the air" is rather clumsy. Could you simplify to "to swing the ball in the air"? You need a comma after "air"
  • All done; I left the re-emerging and switched the emerging for Yorkshire as I feel it reads a little better that way. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Early life

• "children for James Hirst and his wife Sarah Maria..." is not idiomatic English. I suggest "born to"
• I think you mean "dyeing" firm, not "dying"(!)
  • Done. And no, he didn't work for a terminal company! --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

First seasons for Yorkshire

• "...scored 20 and 43 not out and took four wickets for 29 runs (four for 29) and two for 58 with the ball." The words "with the ball", tagged on at the end, make the sentence read oddly. I would rephrase: "scored 20 and 43 not out and, as a bowler, took four wickets for 29 runs (four for 29) and two for 58."
• "The club, needing to fill a vacant place in the team..." Does "the club" mean Yorkshire?
• "That season..." - still 1893?
• "which began in 1890" → "which had begun in 1890"
• "a feat which would have been appreciated by Yorkshire supporters as the fixture was always highly competitive." Unnecessary and inappropriate use of the subjunctive. Suggest delete "which would have been".
  • All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:40, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Leading all-rounder

• "He scored 1,535 runs at an average of 35.69, with a century and 11 fifties and took 101 wickets at an average of 23.22,[11][12] and earned selection for the Players against the Gentlemen in the matches at The Oval and Lord's." Too many "ands" in one sentence.
• "In first-class matches, he only took more than a single wicket in a first-class innings on one occasion,[7] managing only nine first-class wickets at an average of 75.77". There is both over-elaboration and under-explanation here. I don't think readers need to know that he "only took more than a single wicket in a first-class innings on one occasion". On the other hand, those who don't understand cricket won't appreciate the significance of a bowling average of 75.77. I suggest you simplify down to "In first-class matches he took only nine wickets at the very expensive average of 75.77."
• I think you need to make a clearer distinction between tour averages and Test series averages.
• "Later in the season, he played once more for the Players against the Gentlemen..." - "once more" is not necessary.
  • All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

More will follow Brianboulton (talk) 22:45, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, as ever. I'll make a start on these as soon as possible; possibly tomorrow but maybe not till Sunday or later. --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:01, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Next instalment

Discovery of swerve

• I think "swerve" should be in quotes, in the section title, as it is an informal name for this type of bowling
• end of season → end-of-season
  • Fixed. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Success against Australia

• rain affected → rain-affected
• "made it difficult to bat" → "made batting difficult"
• "Hirst was recalled to the Test team..." This point made in previous paragraph
• Encyclopaedic senetences should not begin "Notoriously..."
  • Done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Second tour of Australia

• "player absences" → "players' absences"
• I have noticed a stylistic tendency to begin sentences with the "ing" verb form, as in: "Completing the first of ten consecutive doubles,..." etc. This happens rather a lot and is not the best prose formulation, especially when overused; it would be a good idea to vary some of these (as I have with the one just mentioned).
• The second paragraph needs to begin with the words "In 1903", otherwise the switch of topic is unsettling.
• "his only previous tour" (delete unnecessary word)
• The final two (short) sentences of this paragraph both begin "Hirst...", which produces a jerky effect. Can the two sentences be combined?
• "Hirst took a total of two wickets" → "Hirst took two wickets"
  • Done except for the -ing openings which are ongoing! --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:54, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

To be continued/concluded Brianboulton (talk) 22:14, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Resuming: Sorry for the delay, here are further comments. I still have the last few sections to do, but I am trying to catch up with various chores at present so I'll need another day. Brianboulton (talk) 18:52, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Dominant in county cricket

• Benefit: I suggest you add a footnote giving an approximate current value for £3,703. This is tricky, as there are so many different ways of calculating this, and sometimes the results are preposterous-seeming. Safest is to use the simple RPI, which brings a figure of around £309,000 (Measuringworth). Be sure to include in your footnote that you have used RPI and that other calculating methods exist. Also re the benefit, I suggest you add the words "over the three days of th match" to the attendance figure.
• It's in a quote, so can't be altered, but Lord Hawke's comment about Hirst "coming off" when an effort seemed most necessary will confuse some readers. They may wonder why Hirst left the fiels when an effort seemed most necessary. I suggest you add in parentheses: '(i.e. "succeeding")' after the words "coming off".
• Who is the one man, apart from Bosanquet and Hirst, to score two centuries and take ten wickets in the same match - people are bound to wonder?
• General point: how is the non-specialist reader going to understand the different meanings attached to the word "wicket"? For example: "Hirst took his 200th wicket..." and "a succession of wickets which suited spin bowling..." Perhaps you should stick o "pitch" for the second meaning.
• "playing all three matches against South Africa that summer in a series which England won 1–0." Better add "with two drawn" to avoid confusion
• In close proximity we have: "he took 10 wickets at 18.50" and "six were in the final match of the series, at a cost of 89 runs" Now, I understand the difference between these statements, but readers less familiar with the games's recording methods may not. Rather than getting into complex explanations I think I'd simply remove "at a cost of 89 runs".
• Final tests section: Try to avoid repeating "with (the) bat and ball" in the first line
• In the Lord's centenary match, how come he played for the MCC side which had toured South Africa the previous winter, when he had not been on that tour? Or do you mean that he played for the Rest of England? Eiher way, some explanation/rewording is necessary.
  • All done. The last one was a mistake on my part, as he played for the Rest. --Sarastro1 (talk) 19:47, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

(To be concluded)

Final comments

Later career

• "Hirst played two more first-class games; in 1921–22, he played two games for the Europeans cricket team in India and in 1929, aged 58, he made a final appearance for Yorkshire against the MCC..." I make that three, not two matches
• Coaching: When you say "during Hirst's tenure, the team were unbeaten", I assume you mean unbeaten in the Eton v Harrow series, not unbeaten in all matches. Needs clariication, e.g. "Eton lost to Harrow in 1939 for the first time..."
• When did he become Yorkshire's coach, and how did he combine this with his duties at Eton?

Style and technique

• "A left arm bowler, he took a long run-up..." you have already established that he was a left-arm bowler
• "his abilities as a batsman and bowler seemed to be similar" - not sure that "abilities" is right here (batting and bowling require different abilities; I possess neither, alas). Perhaps rephrase; I assume you are indicating that for much of his career he was equally successful as a batsman and as a bowler.
• "he was most effective with bat or ball when the team depended on his success". I think this point has already been made - see beginning of this section.
• "His record as a Test cricketer was less impressive than in county cricket" - not quite grammatical. Perhaps: "His record as a Test cricketer was less impressive than his figures in county cricket"?
• Something wrong here: "A plain speaking man, Hirst was he could be firm and even outspoken at times". Propbably "was he" superfluous.
  • All done. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

That ends my detailed comments. I have done light copyediting here and there, which you are welcome to adjust. Overall this is pretty impressive; my main concern is that possibly it is a little overdetailed for the casual reader - a few too many references to performances in individual matches, which makes for heavy going for all but the most commited readers. Something to consider; otherwise, well done. Brianboulton (talk) 14:58, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and all your work. I've cut some details of matches. However, I left some of the 1906 performances as I believe they are quite important, and I kept in most of the Test stuff, particularly 1902, as Tests were the pinnacle of his career. However, I'll keep pruning over the next few days. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:07, 21 July 2011 (UTC)