Wikipedia:Peer review/Dave Gallaher/archive1

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Dave Gallaher[edit]

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Dave Gallaher was a man of his time. An Irish-born immigrant to New Zealand that went to church every week, played rugby on his weekends, and fought in two wars, he is most famous as captain of the 1905–06 "Original All Blacks" – the first New Zealand national rugby team to tour the British Isles. He was vilified by many in the press for what they considered off-side play, but the team returned having won 35 of their 36 matches. He fought in both the Boer War and First World War, and was killed in Passchendaele in 1917. My aim is Featured Article status, so any feedback that could help get this article up to that standard would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! – Shudde talk 06:18, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cliftonian thoughts[edit]

Shudde has specifically requested attention to the military side of the article so I will focus primarily on these aspects during my run-through.

  • We say in the first sentence he was an "Irish-born New Zealand rugby union footballer", but considering he left Ireland when he was 4 years old and is notably entirely as a New Zealander, might it not be better to say "New Zealand rugby union footballer of Irish birth", or even just leaving it until further down? Just a thought.
  • We say "he served in the New Zealand Contingent fighting in the Boer War"; we don't need the word "fighting" (unless the intention is to stress that he saw combat, in which case you could say he "fought in the Boer War with the New Zealand Contingent" or something like that).
  • Likewise in the next sentence, we say "was killed fighting in Passchendaele" but we could say "was killed at the Battle of Passchendaele" or even (since this is a very well-known battle) "was killed at Passchendaele".
  • "a 69-year-old shopkeeper, and his wife, 29-year-old Maria" Wow, dirty old sod (no action)
  • "Joeseph"—typo
  • We say James Patrick "sadly" died at the age of two, but unless I am much mistaken we are not supposed to editorialise like this. Just saying he died aged 2 is enough; readers with humanity will find that sad anyway.
  • We say "Maria soon became the chief breadwinner" but we have mentioned two family members of that name. I can see we mean the mother but perhaps this should be clearer.

More later —  Cliftonian (talk)  07:40, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that. All sorted I think. -- Shudde talk 22:05, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, sorry to have taken a while to get back to this. I'll skip down to the military sections

Boer War

  • We say in the caption Gallaher is with "other officers and non-commissioned officers", but putting it this way could be taken to say he was a commissioned officer rather than a noncom (he was a corporal, a junior rank in the grander scheme of things, but the wording seems to inflate his importance, particularly as we don't mention this is just the Auckland section of the contingent). There are only two commissioned officers in this photograph (Lt Sykes and Cpt Markham). I would advise switching to "with other non-commissioned officers and officers" or similar.
    • Definitely didn't intend to do that, well spotted, reworded. -- Shudde talk 08:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would advise changing "Boer War" for the less Anglocentric "Anglo-Boer War"—the war had two sides after all
  • Does the source say exactly why he claimed to be 24 rather than 27? Was it necessary for him to be accepted for service?
    • None of my sources say why (including Elliott, which would be the most comprehensive source out there). McLean does ask that very question, and speculates to an answer, but it's pure speculation, and so there is nothing more I can add. -- Shudde talk 08:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does the source say why he signed up in January 1901 as this is quite late in the war?
    • No unfortunately. New Zealand sent ten contingents, and he was with the sixth, so he wasn't particularly late. Also the earlier contingents were taken from the volunteer forces, and in some cases had to supply much of their own materiel, so I'm unsure he would have qualified. I am speculating though. -- Shudde talk 08:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wouldn't wikilink Northern Transvaal to Limpopo as that province didn't exist for nearly a century after this—perhaps link to South African Republic or similar.
  • I would recommend describing the Boers as Boers rather than "enemies". ("several enemies in his sights" could become "several Boers in his sights" or similar)
    • I'll mull this over. I think it's important that the statement make clear that firing on them would have been acceptable (maybe even required), so I'm not sure I'm happy to reword. They were definitely his enemy (for that moment at least). -- Shudde talk 08:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Squadron Sergeant-Major in 14 months?! That was quick. (no action)
  • Did he give any reason for staying behind in SA after the rest of the guys went home? When we say the new unit "didn't see active service" do we mean it just stayed in camp, or do we just mean it didn't see combat?
    • No reason is given unfortunately. The source says they saw "no action", and that they travelled to camp but did not "move into the field" before the war ended. -- Shudde talk 08:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I posted below, no reason to capitalise words like "squadron", "contingent" etc
  • The image caption says he was a corporal at the time but we don't mention this anywhere in the text or the caption. —  Cliftonian (talk)  08:41, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First World War

  • Did he lie about his age again to get into the WWI forces? I see his gravestone gives his age as 41 rather than 44, so I suppose he did.
    • He almost certainly did. I haven't yet been able to find a RS that explicitly says so. However Elliott does say (after discussing him lying about his age to enlist for the Boer War), "From here on, Gallaher would be known on official documents as a couple of years younger than he was". -- Shudde talk 09:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was there anything in particular that made him enlist in May 1916, specifically?
    • A lot of sources say it was for "revenge" after the death of one of his brothers. But Elliott does show that he enlisted before the brother died, so this can't be true (that he enlisted for revenge may just have been NZ media war propaganda). There is no explicit reason that Gallaher gave for enlisting from what I have found. -- Shudde talk 09:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sergeant-Major should be hyphenated
  • tense: "had been killed"
  • Why don't we wikilink Laventie and Fromelles?
  • Why not wikilink Gallipoli to Gallipoli Campaign?
  • "due to a desire for revenge on behalf of his younger brother" could easily be shortened to "to avenge his younger brother"
  • the comma after this phrase should be a semicolon
  • Since he had the rank of squadron sergeant-major from South Africa, did he retain any seniority on signing up in 1916, or did he start again as a private? I see references to him becoming a sergeant so I suppose he must have lost his rank but just checking.
    • Really not sure. I think his prior service may have been taken into account when he enlisted, but I'm not sure. I'm going to double check this. -- Shudde talk 09:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why refer to Pilckem Ridge as Third Ypres when usually (so far as I know) that term is used to describe Passchendaele?
    • Yeah I'm having trouble with one of my sources here. Elliott is really vague, but McLean has details that don't quite add up. McLean says "On 26 June, the battalion went into action in the Third Battle of Ypres, fighting around La Basse Ville". I wonder whether this was in fact in July, as part of the Battle of Messines? Actually maybe not [1]. Really not sure what McLean was referring to here. -- Shudde talk 09:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hope this helps. Sorry for the delay —  Cliftonian (talk)  05:59, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem at all. I've replied to those questions you've asked. And hopefully addressed everything else. Thanks again. -- Shudde talk 09:19, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Resolute's comments[edit]

  • I'm not quite sure how to reword it at this point, but the opening sentence mentions he is a "New Zealand Rugby Union" player twice. Perhaps you could drop the second use of rugby union and note that he was the first captain of the New Zealand national team to tour...?
  • "He took up coaching and selecting..." - I'm not familiar with what "selecting" means in this context. Is it akin to the role of (general) manager today, where they choose the players for the team? It would be nice if there was an article to link to for the concept, but if not, hopefully it is at least quickly explained in the body.
  • Ramelton and Auckland are linked, but not Wellington?
  • "In 1897 Gallaher's Ponsonby club that won eight of their nine matches,..." - either the "that" is misplaced, or there's a thought there you left incomplete.
  • "Between late December and early January Gallaher and his Contingent were involved in a number of skirmishes." - should contingent be capitalized there? (Same with squadron later in the paragraph.)
    • I'm not sure about that. I'll have to ask someone more knowledgeable. @Zawed: ? -- Shudde talk 03:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd say no, there is no reason in my view to capitalise it. —  Cliftonian (talk)  05:36, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He described one incident where he had several enemy in his sights,..." - several enemies? Or is this proper for New Zealand English?
  • "But he was not fit enough to play immediately upon his return to New Zealand,[52] and didn't resume playing rugby for Ponsonby until the 1903 season." - probably best to expand that contraction to did not resume, particularly to match the use of "was not" instead of wasn't earlier in the sentence.
  • "After a match against a Combined Western Districts side, a second match was played against New South Wales. That match was again won,..." - repetitive. match...match...match.
    • Tried a bit of a c/e, see what you think. -- Shudde talk 03:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Improper capitalization on "test match", throughout it seems. Should "Test" be capitalized?
    • I've seen both "test" and "Test" used (see [2] and [3]). Normally I go with whatever convention has been established in an article. I've gone "Test" here and have hopefully been consistent. -- Shudde talk 03:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Consistency is good, but it strikes me that "test rugby" is not a proper noun so shouldn't be capitalized. At least, it wouldn't be in Canadian or American English, but I will defer to your judgement on local usage. Resolute 21:50, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1904 the first Ranfurly Shield match was played; Gallaher played in an Auckland side lost the shield after a 6–3 defeat to Wellington." - an Auckland side that lost the shield?
    • Tried something different here. -- Shudde talk 03:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The New Zealanders were coached by Jimmy Duncan, by then retired as a player,..." - Since Duncan has not been previously introduced, there's no context behind the note that he had retired as a player. I'd remove it from this part of the article.
    • Duncan was mentioned earlier in this section as captain of the 1903 NZ team. -- Shudde talk 03:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That takes me up to just before the 1905 tour. I will have to resume the review at a future time. Cheers! Resolute 01:11, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Resolute: Thanks for your comments they've been very helpful. I've tried to address them all, please let me know if I've done so adequately. -- Shudde talk 03:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Ok, part two, while I await my team's performance in the 102nd Grey Cup...

  • Much of the early part of the 1905 tour discusses the controversy in the UK over Gallaher's play at wing-forward, but I seem to be missing what the controversy itself was. It seems from later in the article that wing-forward was not a position used in the UK? Is there a way to quickly detail why this position was controversial, or is it there and I just missed it? Or is it mostly to do with play in scrums?
  • "As well as this Gallaher was consistently penalised by the Scottish referee," - this reads quite awkwardly to me. Perhaps just "As well, Gallaher was..." or even simply "Additionally..."?
  • "The most controversial of the tour happened late the half..." - missing word; the most controversial what?
  • Differing usage on commas between your flavour of English and mine have thrown me throughout, but I wonder if "His brother Henry who was a miner served with the Australian 51st Battalion and was killed on 24 April 1917." should be "His brother Henry, who was a miner, served with the..."?
  • "That Gallaher was a talented leader is considered beyond dispute." - Reads as editorializing. Who is making this claim?

Overall, article looks to be in fantastic shape. Was a good read, generally easy to handle despite my limited knowledge of rugby. Cheers! Resolute 21:50, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for those comments. I'll get onto them soon. Really appreciate your feedback. -- Shudde talk 07:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Dank[edit]

I looked at just the lead section and did some copyediting; feel free to revert, as always. If you ping me, I'll be happy to watchlist this page and discuss anything in the lead. - Dank (push to talk) 18:10, 14 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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