Wikipedia:Peer review/Carmen/archive3

Carmen

Previous peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
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Carmen is one of the most popular of all operas, beloved not only of a worldwide public but of such masters of music as Wagner, Brahms and Tchaikovsky. When it played in Germany, Bismarck just couldn't keep away, and Friedrich Nietzsche said it made him a better person. I've done my best to make this into a worthy article, though much credit is due to earlier editors who provideda lot of excellent basic material which I have been happy to use. While this PR proceeds I will work on the list of recordings. All comments and suggestions keenly awaited. Brianboulton (talk) 19:09, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

A fine effort. I've enjoyed Carmen many times over the years and am glad to see the article in such a fine condition. Ah, my customary list of nitpicks:

Lede

• Is there any way to avoid the clash of the 36es in the first paragraph?
• "Later commentators " This and the next sentence seem a bit misplaced where they are.
• "has maintained its position" Possibly a "since" after "has" may help, but I won't mourn greatly if you disregard.
• " there is still no standard edition of the opera" I would omit "still", which implies it may come to pass, about which I would not hold my breath.

Synopsis

• "José arrives unobtrusively with the new guard" Unobtrusively? Given that directors seem wedded to staging that scene in a most spectacular manner, I'm not quite sure this is the proper term. Also some reference to the guard being changed might not go amiss.

• In the many performances I've seen, although the guard and the children are presented in an elaborate spectacle, Jose enters without ceremony. However, I have removed "unobtrusively"

• "The smuggler's hideout in the hills" Possibly "smugglers' "? I'm not certain on this.
• "read the cards" Perhaps expand slightly.
• "José is sent away to guard the contraband." This may slightly confuse the reader who has just had the booty come onstage. Jose is going to guard the approaches or some such rather than standing over it.
• " Escamillo confesses" He's rather up front about it, actually.
• toreador's song." You have called it the Toreador song, and have not referred to him directly as a toreador.

• In fact he is called a toreador in the lead and in the roles table. I have standardised "toreador's song", removing the intrusive capital

• You might want to mention in Act 4 that Carmen refuses to leave fatalistically or some such.
• ", as the crowds flock from the arena to find him confessing to the murder of the woman he loved." Perhaps "as the crowd exits the arena, they find Jose standing over Carmen's body, and he confesses to killing the woman he loved."

Creation

• " so there is" perhaps "resulting in"
• The sentence about the librettists' prior relationships could benefit from being placed earlier in the paragraph.
• The first sentence of the next paragraph would benefit from the loss of an "1873".

Characterization

• "that would later find fuller expression" You could omit "later" without penalty.
• "such as have deterred some of opera's most distinguished exponents." Perhaps, " ; this has deterred ..." And why exponents if they have been deterred? Consider the omission of the word "Even" in next sentence.

• They are exponents of opera in general, rather than of this opera.

• "Toreador's song" Suggest standardisation.
• "Gounod" First usage, should be linked.

Performance history

• "It was generally believed " Perhaps "at the time", for clarity, should be added.
• " Drury Lane theatre" Is this the customary capitalisation? I see the redirect works.
• "In the event ..." This sentence strikes me as a bit confusing.
• "with the Viennese public" Perhaps avoid the word "Viennese" due to its proximity to "Vienna".
• "was the springboard towards the opera's rapid ascent" I would say "began the opera's ..."
• "among the first recorded instances " If you do not mean to say that they were recorded on media, suggest "recorded" be replaced with, perhaps, "known" or another synonym.
• "the fate that she personifies" Death?

• I think this is inferred.

• " as Micaëla reappears and sings her duet with José " Pedantic, but it takes two people to sing a duet effectively.

Recordings

• Afro-American. This term may ring oddly to American ears. Can it be worked around?

• I'm not sure. Can you suggest an alternative (that would not sound strange to European ears)?

Well done, as always.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:09, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for the comments and suggestions, generally adopted except as noted. Brianboulton (talk) 13:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Gerda Arendt

love the opera, hear the music now, just a few comments:

lede

• "tells the story of the downfall of Don José" - the novella is told by him, but the title figure is Carmen, could that show?

• In fact, only chapter 3 of the novella is recounted by Jose. However, I am not quite certain of your point, here.

• I think you got it below, thanks.

• "brilliance of melody, harmony and orchestration" seems very general

• The lead is a very general summary of the article. A fuller discussion of te music's character is given later.

• Yes, but tells me about nothing, could be said about many pieces, nothing special Carmen. A little hint at Spanish flavour perhaps?

• perhaps include "a drama with real men and women instead of the usual Opéra-Comique "puppets""?

• Are you suggesting that de Banville's comment be repositioned into the lead? I don't think that would be at all appropriate.

Writing history

• "Micaëla does not feature in Mérimée's version", - suggest to say that she was added by the librettist

Surely that is an obvious inference? It would be verbose to underline the point

• I can't word it well but feel that it's strange to give a name that doesn't feature, could be Cinderella does not feature. I would instead like that the librettists invented a female counterpart, ... you name it.

Music

• what is "full fortissimo"?

• I have removed "full" and provided a more helpful link on "fortissimo"

Musical numbers

• not really helpful if you don't read French, could be a table with translations, no?

• I could add translations, though the object of this list is to indicate reference points rather than to relate the story. See, for example, Les pêcheurs de perles. On the other hand, we included translation in Tosca. What do other reviewers think?

other

• What do you think of File:Carmen habanera original.jpg?

• It was in the article before I began my reconstruction. It's interesting, but pretty well indecipherable, even in its enlarged form. I think its function would be mainly decorative.

• Mention Carmen (1983 film)?

• I don't really want to add any more detail to the adaptations section; if this is mentioned, why not others of the 70-odd films? I am anxious to keep the focus of the article on the opera. A separate listing of adaptations and derivations is being prepared as a subarticle, and this film will of course be listed there.Brianboulton (talk) 12:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for a great improvement! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:51, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• Think (in the lede) about Carmen as a bit more than a seducer with wiles. She has a different concept of love, s. Habanera. Perhaps mention that her name means song? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

• The point about Carmen's character s good, and I will address this in the "characterisation" section rather than the lead. Probbaly the significance of the habanera can be highlighted, too. I will work on this. Thank you, Gerda, for your other comments. Brianboulton (talk) 13:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Note to reveiwers, 15 March: I am experiencing regular interruptions on my broadband connection (it disappeared for 12 hours yesterday) so my interactions here may be intermittent for a while (engineers due Monday 19th!). I will do my best to deal with your comments, so please keep them coming. Brianboulton (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2012 (UTC) (Problem under control at the moment)

Image layout: the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Location states: "Do not place images on the left at the start of any section or subsection. Images on the left must be placed somewhere after the first paragraph." There are currently four images positioned that way. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

:I have always understood this referred only to main sections, and that it was OK to have images at the top left of sub-sections. Though even then there are two images at the top left of main sections. Tim riley (talk) 12:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

This is a guideline. It used to refer to left-aligned images placed under level-three headings, and was a bloody nuisance then. The guideline was removed, several years ago. Someone has restored it, in an even more prohibitative form, creating an even bigger nuisance. It may solve some problems, but it merely creates others and hampers sensible page design. Fortunately it remains a guideline, not a requirement. Brianboulton (talk) 13:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

I've amended a few typos. Lest you think I've gone barmy, I have checked with the OED and Chambers and "tranquillity" is right, though it looks wrong. There is an "its" that longs to be an "it's", but as it is in a quote (from Massenet to Bizet) I didn't like to alter it.

I'm afraid I can't blame Massenet; the error was mine, alas.

• Synopsis
  • "foresees a mutual night of dancing" – "mutual" isn't quite right here, I feel, but I can't suggest anything better.
• Creation
  • "He was given assurances that the story would be toned down, that Carmen 's character would be softened, and offset by Micaëla, "a very innocent, very chaste young girl"." – Two questions: who gave him the assurances? And who is being quoted?
  • "Bizet appears to have resumed work on Carmen" – I take this to mean the opera, not the character, so itals wanted.
  • "During the period of rehearsals which began in the autumn" – comma wanted before "which", I think. And for "autumn", perhaps give the name of the month: antipodean readers' susceptibilities, you know.
  • "the conducting score used at the premiere diverges from each of these documents" – "diverge" means to go in different directions, which doesn't seem quite right here; perhaps just "differs"?
• Characterisation
  • "Unusually in the opéra comique tradition, the characters in Carmen are drawn from proletarian life. However, most of them …are familiar types within the genre." – Mixed messages here: if they are unusual how are they also familiar?
  • "The dramatic personality of the character, and the range of moods she is required to express, call for exceptional acting and singing talents. This has deterred some of opera's most distinguished exponents" – according to whom?
    • According to whichever humble scribe wrote this note in the excellent Del Prado handbook. Unfortunately, writers are not specifically credited; there is a list of names given as responsible for "text". The name I have used in the citation is that of the series editor; I don't think I can be more specific.
      • Fine with me. Tim riley (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
• Assembling the cast
  • "a staunch ally of Bizet's" – "a staunch ally of Bizet"?
• Premiere and original run
  • "the last-named was overheard complaining bitterly that Bizet had stolen the music of Micaëla's Act 3 aria from him" – does anyone say which piece of Gounod's he accused Bizet of plagiarising? And if so was there any real similarity?
    • Regrettably, no one gives more detail than I have shown here
      • Fine, then Tim riley (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "his mentor, Nadezhda von Meck" – patroness, certainly, but mentor?
• Early revivals
  • "…at Her Majesty's Theatre" – but earlier "Drury Lane theatre" has a lower-case "t". I see Wehwalt has already mentioned this and you have dealt with it. Tim riley (talk) 19:51, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Does ref 52 cover the Patti and Dublin statements as well as the US and Russia ones?
    • It covers everything back to the Belgian premiere
  • "where Chancellor Otto von Bismarck" – tabloidese? Perhaps " where the Chancellor …."?
• Worldwide success
  • The second sentence, quote and all, lacks a citation
    • The quoted NYT notice is given in the Met's archive, which is the next citation given. As I have not seen the actual NYT issue, I can't cite it directly. I could cite the Met again, I suppose, but I tend to avoid successive citations to the same source.
      • Fair enough. Tim riley (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
  • "Caruso made numerous pencil sketches of the devastation before he and the company were rescued." – interesting, but is it relevant to Carmen?
• Refs
  • The blue link for Edward Greenfield could be moved up to his first mention (The Penguin Guide to Opera on Compact Discs at ref 85)
• Sources
  • A few oclc numbers missing
    • Yes, I've forgotten where to find these. Finetooth showed me once, but I can't remember. Can you remind me?
      • I'll be happy to deal with this. And now have. For future ref: http://www.worldcat.org/ With the ISBN for the missing Grove ref you're on your own, as I never know where to put the dashes (and I omit them, as does WorldCat) Tim riley (talk) 23:24, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I greatly enjoyed this article, and learned a fair bit, too. I thought I knew Carmen pretty well, but I find I didn't. I shall now go and treat myself to a dip into the Beecham recording, recits and all. – Tim riley (talk) 12:57, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the review and the helpful comments. I have only responded when necessary; otherwise you may assume that I have followed (or as good as) your suggestions. Enjoy TB's version (is that with Victoria De los Angeles - he did it more than once?). I have been enjoying a slightly more recent version, from the Met in 1987, with Carreras and Agnes Baltsa. Great stuff. Brianboulton (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Cg2p0B0U8m

This reads very well and a lot of polish has gone into the revamp. I will type out my comments in the next few days. A couple to start: why is there a difference between the opening run of 36 in the introduction and 48 in premiere and initial run? Also, the scene settings in the synopsis are not correct according to the 1875 vocal score (see the two pdfs on IMSLP); they were correct prior to the revamp and to be accurate I suggest using those. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 23:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, and I will look forward to your further comments. On these two points: first, the sources show that the total of 48 includes the additional 12 performances after the production was brought back in November 1875. I will look for a way of making this clearer. On the second point, I have deliberately made the scene settings less specific, since most productions depart significantly from the details given in the 1875 vocal score. I don't feel strongly about this, however, if it perceived as a problem. Brianboulton (talk) 12:45, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I think the danger is that if it departs from the established descriptions anyone can change these settings. My preference is to stick with Bizet's wording.Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, I will revert to the original scene settings. Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have some comments on the new synopsis. Although I understand that the intention has been to reduce it to around 800 words, (I am not proposing large restorations) I think many useful details which bring the characters and situations to life need some clarification to help the reader (I am using the Schott-Eulenberg full score with dialogue). My suggested changes are in bold:
Act 1

• The men plead with her to say when she will love them (p97)
• she throws a flower to Don José, who had been ignoring her but is now annoyed by her insolence.(113-166; he also calls her a witch)
• Micaëla returns and gives José a letter and a kiss from his mother (p117 onwards – the kiss figures very strongly in the Duo)
• José agrees to free her hands, and as she is led off to prison she pushes her escort to the ground and runs off laughing. (p192; the curtain then falls)

Act 2

• Carmen is delighted to learn of José's release from (p224)
• Escamillo ("Vivat, vivat le Toréro"). Invited in, he introduces himself
• Carmen refuses – she is in love, and she wishes to wait for José.(p285)
• but her song is joined by a distant bugle call from the barracks.(p307 this is one the mini masterstrokes of Bizet)

Act 3

• that the cards are foretelling her death, and Don José’s.(p413 “moi d’abord, ensuite lui”)
• Obviously a lot happens in the Duo; I would suggest amending ‘The pair fight, but are interrupted by the returning smugglers…’ to

José challenges Escamillo to a knife-fight. José finds himself at the mercy of Escamillo who releases him; when Escamillo's knife breaks, José is about to kill him, when Carmen rushes in and stops him (p480 ‘arrêtant le bras de Don José’ and Escamillo sings that she has saved his life)
Act 4

• José is nearby, but Carmen is unafraid and says she will speak to him.(p572)
• throws down the ring he gave her and tries to enter the arena.(p600-601 she attempts several times to get by)

Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

• I will look further at these, but in general I am not in agreement. Are you familiar with WP:PLOTSUM, which details Wikipedia's policy with regard to plot summaries for fictional works? This stipulates that the plot summary should provide a concise description of the work in question; the point is to explain the story, not to reproduce the experience. Specifically the policy says: "Do not attempt to recreate the emotional impact of the work through the plot summary". It seems to me that the additions you propose are contrary to this policy. Maybe they would add a little colour to the synopsis, but that is not its point. We could all find bits that could usefully be added in, if we were writing a full account of the opera story, but I am satisfied that the summary does its required job. It doesn't explain or cover everything, but I am quite sure that it gives the essence of the story to anyone approaching the opera for the first time. Brianboulton (talk) 01:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

• On another issue; while I understand that you are trying to improve the article, your practice of drip-feeding a few daily comments into this review, in no particular order, is not very helpful. I don't get any real sense that the article is being reviewed as a whole, rather that holes are being picked in it at random, with no particular end envisaged. I respect your knowledge, and have tried to accommodate most of your suggestions, but I think you have to accept that my approach is different from yours and that we will probably never agree on some details. Nor is it essential that we should. Brianboulton (talk) 01:15, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Fine, we obviously disagree on how to ’explain the story’.

I am sorry that my method of adding comments is unhelpful. I am not picking holes at random. I printed out the article and went throughwriting on the things which struck me as needing change. I have then been typing out some (not all) of these, while checking them out at the same time. I thought it would be useful to add them as soon as I managed to finish type sections, but from now on I will type the remainging ones and post all here. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I am sure you are not deliberately being unhelpful. But I am seeking to wrap this review up fairly soon; it has been open quite a while and the article has been pretty well gone over. I'll leave it open for a few more days, to give you a chance to post your final suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

On Performance history – Assembling the cast - My main comment here is that the information on Chapuy is confusingly London-centric – she was a rising star and her career was overwhelmingly in Paris, centred on the Opéra-Comique. The Mapleson quote is not really relevant, her retirement caused sadness in Paris too. However, it might have been nice to mention Deloffre’s fourth Bizet creation - and his last opera premiere before he too died just before the end of the first run. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

As far as Chapuy is concerned, as she is only a marginal figure, I don't really want to extend this information, which is both accurate and reliably sourced. On Deloffre, if you can supply precise source details, I will add this information. Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your replies. Well the Chapuy is accurate and reliable, but it just seemed confusing to me in the context of this section of this article; I don't want more information added. Don't worry about Deloffre. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

On Creation – characterisation - Sorry, but last two sentences of the third paragraph do not really make sense to me: is there evidence that Maria Callas (who is generally thought to have had 'exceptional acting and singing talent') was ‘deterred’ from appearing in it on stage? I also think the previous version of the article had something about different tessitura; along the lines that many opera singers have tried to sing it on stage even though it is not their range. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Can you say what it is that you don't understand? It seems clear enough. The exact wording of the source is: "There have been numerous singers who have dared to play the role only in the comfort of the recording studio, such as Jessye Norman or Maria Callas, even though the latter, with her formidable talent as an actress, could have given a spectacular stage performance". There was no mention of tessitura in the older version of the article. You may be thinking of the uncited sentence: "The singer must not only have a great range, but also exhibit superior dramatic skills in order to portray Carmen's complex character, and be able to dance convincingly on stage" - which is quite similar to the first of the two sentences to which you refer.Brianboulton (talk) 00:58, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I am not clear. This is the passage: "The dramatic personality of the character, and the range of moods she is required to express, call for exceptional acting and singing talents. This has deterred some of opera's most distinguished exponents; Maria Callas, though she recorded the part, never performed it on stage." As I wrote, is there evidence that Callas was 'deterred' from doing it on stage for the reason of the 'exceptional acting and singing' required, which she in any case possessed? Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:39, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

The evidence is in the source and I think my wording is a reasonable reflection of that source. If you want to suggest a modification that still represents the source, please feel free. Brianboulton (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Aleko: We have lost the mention of Rachmaninov’s opera in Professor Briggs’s article.(Briggs A D. "Did Carmen come from Russia?" in English National Opera programme, 2004; the poem also forms the basis of Rachmaninov’s one-act opera Aleko.) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that the Rachmaninov opera connection is really a little too marginal for inclusion. The article does of course mention the Pushkin poem as a possible source for the opera. Brianboulton (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Both of the capital’s state-funded opera houses... - I think this should be checked. The Théâtre-Italien also had a subsidy most of the time as did others, although all were dwarfed by the Opera. (I am afraid the best citation I can find to hand is in the introduction to Huebner’s book on Gounod – there must be somewhere better!). Also “largely excluded young native talent” is questionable/strong in respect of the Opéra Comique. See Soubies, Albert and Malherbe, Charles, Histoire de L'Opéra Comique, La Seconde Salle Favart, 1840- 1860. Flammarion, Paris, 1893. 351 works by 133 composers (some young and native) were performed from 1840-87; they give a list on page 443- (I don’t know what the position was at the Opera) Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have tweaked the "both" into "The capital's two main state-funded opera houses". I think "largely excluded young native talent" is justified by Winton Dean, p. 38. At the Opera, he says, the only French work of the smallest merit produced there between 1852 and 1870 was Thomas's Hamlet. "The Opera-Comique", he continues, "though it produced more native work, was in little better case." It had "ossified the idiom of the 1830s and reproduced it for the next forty years". However, I have softened the wording to: "which restricted opportunities for young native talent". Brianboulton (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

External links - On External links, the one that I am sorry has been lost is the School of Advanced Study one (http://sas-space.sas.ac.uk/view/collections/fmc-carm.html). I don’t know what the rationale for that was, but it is a very useful well-presented collection of relevant contemporary articles for anyone wanting to look further at the reception of Carmen, and definitely worth keeping. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:29, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Please feel free to add this back to the External links. Brianboulton (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

On total of performances at the Opéra-Comique - I think it would be better to give a more recent figure than 1938. Wolff gives 2,607 up to 1950 (Wolff, Stéphane. Un demi-siècle d'Opéra-Comique 1900–1950. André Bonne, Paris, 1953 (p38-9).) If I can I will try to find the 2009 number after the production that year. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

On Caruso in worldwide success - I don’t know why there are two long sentences on Caruso and an earthquake (more germane to the Caruso article?); like Mapleson it seems to be a slight tangent. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Well, thank you for these continuing comments. Briefly, the 1937 number is given because it was Bizet's centenary year; the exact number of performances thereafter is in my view a matter only for nerds. The Caruso story is admittedly a sideshow, but it is only brief, adds a bit of historical context, and I don't intend to remove it. Brianboulton (talk) 01:06, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Nerds? I was simply offering a more recent figure from an impeccable source to assist readers of the article. Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 17:36, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Final points from Cg2p0B0u8m

Three first paragraphs “the main character dies on stage” I suggest to change dies to ‘is killed’ ; also “differences of view exist as to what versions best express Bizet’s intentions” – if versions = original sources it is probably safe to say the 1875 vocal score is generally accepted as Bizet’s final view.

• This point is made in the main text. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Premiere and initial run - Lecocq has gone from ‘leading musical figures’ at the premiere. Also there is nothing on accusations of Wagnerism?

I am not sure why the mention of the Spanish premieres was cut: The first performance in Spain was on 2 August 1881 at the Teatro Lirico Barcelona with Galli-Marié; Madrid saw it on 2 November 1887 at the Teatro de la Zarzuela.(Ref was = Kertesz E, Christoforidis M. Confronting Carmen beyond the Pyrenees: Bizet's opera in Madrid 1887–88. Cambridge Opera Journal, 20:1, March 2008, pp. 79–110. Contemporary Spanish critics condemned the 'Spanish' music in the opera.)

Worldwide success - Re Oeser – ‘…Dean’s view is “unsatisfactory”.’ In fact Dean describes the Oeser edition as “a musicological disaster of the first magnitude”.

• Yes, I have paraphrased Dean's language. He is rather given to over-florid hyperbole at times. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Recordings, adaptations - I agree that if you include one you have to include more. Therefore I don’t think there is justification for having only Schedrin; one could argue that Carmen Jones, Petit’s Carmen, etc should be admitted.

For the section on music, there is lots of good information. But while it is fine to set out the subjective descriptive moods of the music, I think articles on a piece of classical music, should have some analysis on the mechanics (the 'how', as much as the 'what'): how the music achieves its effects of comedy or tragedy and supports the drama. An example: by repeating José's "Dût-il m'en couter la vie" up a semi-tone in G shortly after being in G-flat is a dramatic stroke.

• I would agree with you if we were writing for a specifically musical or opera magazine. However, for a general encyclopedia I think a different tone is necessary, and that is what I have aimed to provide (as with other opera articles I've worked on), strictly on te basis of the sources I've used. I have, however, tweaked the section with some of your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

I am not clear why we have lost a brief mention of the orchestral suites. Orchestration would be nice. a few things:

• Prelude - Carmen’s ‘fate theme – the cellos are not ‘background’ (it all looks unison to me)
• Act 1 - ‘exasperated A sharp shout’ – I think this depends on the singer
• Act 2 – the way in which Carmen's castanet dance is barely scored, allowing the bugle summoning José to barracks to harmonize with her song, is worth mentioning.
• Act 3 card trio ‘the fate motif heard in brass and wind’ – sorry, I can’t find this, I can only see it in the flute
• Act 4 final – ‘As José kills Carmen, the fate motif, etc’ – should this not be ‘As José kills Carmen the chorus sing the refrain of the Toreador’s song off-stage’.

In Musical Numbers a few corrections,

• Act 1 – 3rd number should be “Avec la garde montante” Seguidilla – should be “Près des ramparts…”
• In Act 2 it should be “Les tringles des sistres…”. In act 2 bullets 7-9 are as one number in the 1875 score (or if not, José is missing from the number headed “Non! Tu ne m’aimes pas”.)
• Micaela is missing from the Act 3 finale,
• In Act 4 the final starts “C’est toi! C’est moi!” (reverse order, exclamation,not question)
• The 2nd, 3rd and 4th orchestral pieces should all be entr’actes.
• Perhaps it could be stated which score the numbers are taken from.

Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you for your review and the many suggestions. You will find that, more often than not, I have followed your suggestions. In a few cases I'm not convinced of the need for change and have left things as they are; that is not to dismiss your points, merely to indicate that we see things a little differently when it comes to detail. I am assuming that your review is now complete; your interest in the article has undoubtedly helped to improve it and I am grateful for your knowledge and expertise. Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Smerus. Great article. I did some trivial copyediting. I would just mildly suggest that 'Bizet struggled to get his stage works performed, despite his status as a Prix de Rome laureate' could be a trifle misleading. Being a PdR laureate was never an automatic passport to getting works performed; 'despite' suggests that he was unusually discriminated against. Maybe 'Although he was a Prix de Rome laureate,Bizet struggled to get his stage works performed'? --Smerus (talk) 19:23, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I have changed to your wording. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Media file review All the images and sound files are free. I wonder why File:Merimee sketch 001.png is not able to be moved to Commons - if it is really from 1850 and the artist was 20 then (born 1830) then even if the artist lived to be 100 years old (died 1930) it is over 70 years since his / her death. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:12, 27 March 2012 (UTC) PS I read the whole article and would be glad to support at FAC. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 19:03, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks for your help. I'll look again at the licencing on the Merimee image and try and remember why I put restrictions on it. Brianboulton (talk) 09:50, 28 March 2012 (UTC)