Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/The Hustler (film)/2

The Hustler (film)[edit]

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Result: Article listed as GA. Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC).[reply]

I'm sorry, but this GA fail was ridiculous. It appears to me that AnmaFinotera failed it as a punishment because I disagreed with the mistaken trivial copy edits made by Malleus Fatuorum about where some punctuation should go. I have all of the original sources and I'm guessing that Malleus does not, and I placed all punctuation properly in accordance with WP:PUNC. The concerns of the nominator were addressed and to fail an article because of a disagreement about where a few periods and commas ought to go is foolish. Otto4711 (talk) 01:37, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I failed because of prose issues. The article was being copy edited to fix this, but you got into an argument over it. Quite honestly, yes, I was appalled at your reaction to some someone who was doing you a favor to fix the one big issue before the article could be passed. I also felt it was extremely rude of you to keep reverting him in the middle of the copyedit rather than leave a note on his talk page to discuss. You chased off not one, but two copyeditors with such actions. As such, the prose issues remained unfixed, and one of the biggest concerned left unaddressed. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 03:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone over this extensively on Malleus's talk page so I'm not going to go too deeply into it again here. All I'm going to say is that if I find that someone is editing an article in good faith and introducing spelling mistakes or any other kind of errors, I'm going to fix them whether the editor is still actively introducing the errors or not. I see this as no different. The editor was introducing punctuation "fixes" that were incorrect per the original sources, all of which I have in my possession. I did leave a message on his talk page. I can't quite see how I can be held responsible for another editor's feelings being bruised by an innocuous edit summary like "punctuation is correct per original source."
As for the second copy editor I supposedly "chased off," I posted exactly one comment in which I quoted part of a style guideline and explained that in numerous previous GA discussions I have been advised to title the sections "Notes" and "References." Again, the message strikes me as pretty innocuous and straightforward and I am baffled by the editor's extreme reaction to it.
I still think the GA fail was punitive and am quite frankly getting a little tired of this article being used as a punching bag over triviality. It was failed the first time because the reviewer didn't like the format of the cast list. It was failed the second time because of where some commas and periods were placed. Otto4711 (talk) 12:40, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. As long as quotations are punctuated in a clear and consistent manner, the precise method can hardly be considered a GA requirement, especially as the MoS is unclear on what "logical quotation" actually means. Although I don't consider it relevant to this reassessment, I have made an enquiry there.

Are there any other prose issues? Geometry guy 09:21, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As per my GA review "There are a few places where the article jumps a bit from topic to topic with no transition. For example, in Production, the second paragraph opens with "Paul Newman was originally unavailable to play Fast Eddie...", but nothing in the first paragraph mentions him being considered or desired for the part. After noting someone else was hired, it notes that Newman was freed from his previous obligation and took the part. Was Darin simply fired when Newman became available? There are also a few places where sentences are worded awkwardly, causing problems with flow, such as three paragraphs in a row starting the same way. Has the article been copyedited?" The specific examples were mostly fixed, though the first still seems to jump without any clue it is coming. The punctuation issue wasn't even one I looked at (I'm not an expert in that area), but the problems with the prose itself lead me to ask for a copyedit. I wouldn't have a clue about mispaced commas and periods beyond blatantly obvious ones like a period placed midsentence or missing or something. So despite Otto's beliefs, I failed it purely on the actual prose of the piece, the flow, tone, etc. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 14:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second paragraph now begins with the information that Newman's agent turned down the part. It seems to me that this includes the implication that the studio was interested in Newman's playing the part, else why would he have been offered it to turn down? I fixed the issue of multiple consecutive paragraphs, as you noted, and you also commented in the review - at least I took your comment in the review to mean, and forgive me if I misinterpreted - that you felt that the additional material in the production section addressed your concerns but you still wanted another set of eyes to look at it. If there are specific sentences that you believe are worded awkwardly, why not just say which sentences they are? I'm not Kreskin; I can't tell what sentences you like and what sentences you don't if you don't tell me which ones they are. Otto4711 (talk) 19:06, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those were only a few instances. I felt the entire thing needed review by a copyeditor to fix up such sentences, and to spot ones I might have missed as I am not a grammar expert. When you've written almost the entire article, it is very hard to see such issues. A copyeditor who is not tied to the article can see such things and fix them relatively quickly, which is usually why a CE is a good idea before any GA nom. Also, while the implication is there, it still reads oddly to just jump straight to choice two. -- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 19:16, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification. I'm a little confused by "punctuation is correct per original source". If it were direct quotations being altered, I'd absolutely agree that they shouldn't be touched. However, the article text should be the expression of unoriginal research in an original way that we strive for. Why then must the punctuation follow the source? EyeSerene^talk 18:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For instance, when Sarah rejects Eddie initially, she says "You're too hungry." The article has the period inside the quotation marks because the quote is the end of a sentence of dialog. Similarly, other instances of punctuation being moved outside the quotes are instances in which the quote is the end of the sentence. Putting the period inside the quotes indicates that it's the end of the sentence in the original source. Putting it outside the quotes creates the possible impression that it is not the end of the sentence, which may lead the reader to erroneously believe that there is more to the sentence and perhaps wonder what has been omitted and why. I don't see how placing the punctuation where it is in the directly quoted source implicates the concept of research, original or unoriginal. Otto4711 (talk) 18:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Clarification from me: the issue mainly concerns direct quotations of sentence fragments from the end of a sentence in the source. WP:PUNC (part of MoS) says "When a sentence fragment is quoted, the period is outside." Consequently Malleus tried to copyedit the article to move periods outside direct quotations of sentence fragments. Otto objected, because the period was in the source, hence part of the quote. This would certainly be in the spirit of WP:Logical quotation, which is the principle MoS is using. Furthermore, WP:PUNC, bless it, goes on to contradict its own injunction. In short, a perfect demonstration of why the finer details of MoS are not required for GA. Lets concentrate on other issues shall we? Geometry guy 19:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both for that. I agree, it's trivial. The reason for my initial concern was that the "punctuation is correct per original source" sentence could be read as implying sections of the article had been lifted verbatim from the sources, although I very much doubted that was really the case, or it was what Otto4711 meant to imply. With that put to rest, I don't see any real reason why this shouldn't be a GA. The prose isn't perfect, but it's by no means bad, and it ticks all the criteria boxes for me. The only slight nitpick is that the image used should have a descriptive filename, but that's minor. EyeSerene^talk 20:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I made some very minor copyedits, and spotted one sentence needing citation, otherwise this should be fine as a GA. Geometry guy 22:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The tagged sentence is I believe supported by the sentences that follow it, Rossen's assessment of his work and Ebert's review, both of which discuss the theme of humanity, winning and losing. Otto4711 (talk) 22:41, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I provided a ham-fisted way to cover this, but there may be a better way to restructure the sentences/paragraph to make clear that the given sentence is a summary of reliably sourced material. For now, though, I have no further concerns and recommend listing as GA. Geometry guy 22:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the duplicate sourcing is a fine solution. I'm continuing to poke around for thematic material for what I hope may be a FAC push at some point so with a little luck I'll turn up something a little better. Thanks. Otto4711 (talk) 22:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. As I have been mentioned here, I think it only appropriate to comment. As it happens, I think the article is just about good enough to meet the GA criteria, although a long way from being a credible FA candidate. And I made at least a couple more changes other than just moving a few fullstops around. But take this sentence for example: "Sarah pleads with Eddie to leave with her, saying that the world he's living in and its inhabitants are 'perverted, twisted and crippled,' but he refuses." The punctuation is clearly wrong, don't you think? Not a GA fail I agree, but when someone offers to help correct errors like that perhaps it would be as well to be a little more gracious in refusing such help? That's all I have to say. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 00:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I've already said, I am sorry about how this whole situation went down. I had no intention of belittling your efforts or making you feel like you were not appreciated or in any way dissing your contributions. I was 100% in "this seems wrong to me, I'll fix it" mode. There was absolutely no intention on my part to imply that your actions were not undertaken in good faith. Otto4711 (talk) 05:10, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I'm not at all upset at having my work described as "mistaken trivial copy edits", even though others did have to go through and repeat much of it after you had calmed down. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You know what? I was totally ready to let this die, but seeing as how you've back-handed me not once, not twice, but three times over this, I really now feel the need to point out that it's time for you to get the hell over it. One more snide remark about it and I will pursue the matter of your incivility further. Otto4711 (talk) 23:12, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please feel free to pursue what you perceive to be the matter of my incivility wherever you like, I really couldn't care less. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:26, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we both know that's not true, don't we? Otto4711 (talk) 00:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Malleus: I went through last night and fixed a few examples of commas at the ends of quotations similar to the one you quote, but I missed that one. Punctuation is needed outside the quote here, I agree; this is even more clear if one decides to use a semicolon instead of a comma, as I have suggested in my fix. I remain agnostic about the periods, and have left them inside. Geometry guy 07:24, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's more of a grey area when the quotation is at the end of the sentence and is itself the end of a sentence (if you see what I mean), I agree. The rule seems clear enough to me though that if the quotation is not a complete sentence, then as a matter of definition the punctuation at its end is not part of the quotation, but part of the sentence in which it's quoted ... I'm starting to confuse myself now, and this is not really relevant to this GAR anyway. :-) My feeling is that on balance the article should be listed as a GA. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 13:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, had I been copyediting the article, I would have made the same changes you did. However, no big deal ;) EyeSerene^talk 17:13, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I might have changed some myself too, but my query has so far led to more heat than light at WT:MoS, sigh :-) Geometry guy 23:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, well everyone knows the MoS is only a guideline... EyeSerene^talk 07:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List as GA. Any objections, or can this now be closed? Geometry guy 23:17, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- No objection from me. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 23:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - Nope, none here. EyeSerene^talk 09:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously I'm good with closing as list. Otto4711 (talk) 23:30, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]