Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/delist/Geisha Kyoto Gion

Delist: Geisha_Kyoto_Gion.jpg[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 15 Jun 2014 at 08:11:52 (UTC)

Reason: Simply put, a poor photogaph that does not at all meet the FP criteria.

Resolution is way too small - only 912 × 1,000 pixels (cp FP minimum 1500x1500).
Composition is simply bad at best (the client is cut off in half, objects on the table likewise). The background is uninteresting (one could for example have hoped for a shoji if they're in an ochaya or ryotei).
The picture is taken with a harsh flash throwing shadows on the wall...
...but it is still extremely grainy, noisy and lacking in sharpness. There can simply be no discussion that this picture obviously flaunts the two first FP criteria.
What about encyclopedic value then? Well, it certainly has quite a bit of value, but the picture is atypical and certainly not the best representation of what it's like being entertained by a geisha. A geisha might very well light a cigarette for a client, but cigar smoking is very unusual indeed in Japan. It is also very atypical for the client to be foreigner, and a young one at that - this subtracts EV, not adds to it, as it's not a good representation of how things typically would happen (the perfect client would be a red-faced (from drinking) and smiling 50+ Japanese businessman).
More on representativeness: a geisha/geiko/maiko most typically entertains by 1) talking and, importantly, laughing at what the client says 2) playing games 3) drinking and pouring alcohol (assuming we treat the dancing, singing and shamisen playing etc. as something separate, of course). A picture showing a geisha doing any of these activities would be a much better representation of "geisha entertainment." If the picture quality were better, I think these perhaps minor "representativeness" issues could definitely be forgiven, but I just want to make it painstakingly clear how I think the picture falls short.
Is the picture then, at lest, somehow unique? - No. The original nominator made several false claims in the nomination, among other things that these men (the photographer and the client) might be the only Americans ever allowed into the closed world of geisha, which is patently untrue. There are services in both Japanese and English (check google) who can set up any tourist for "banquets" exactly like the one depicted. As a matter of fact, I could myself set this up for any Wikipedia photographer interested.
There are also better and more interesting pictures available online - for example these 2 from 1955 on Flickr, available under a CC BY-NC-SA license: [1][2] and this on already on wiki, but not in the English-language article: [3] (though I wouldn't say these are FP quality either). Non-free examples here that better show what geisha entertainment is really about: [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11]

Articles this image appears in: Geisha
Previous nomination/s: nom, previous delist nom
Nominator: JPNEX (talk)

Delist — JPNEX (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per above (though, just to be clear, the CC-BY-NC-SA license is non-free, as far as Wikipedia is concerned). J Milburn (talk) 08:48, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have read the nomination and previous delist. I've also read comments about obtaining/using realistic pictures on the article talk page. Although the image isn't great technical quality, it has good illustrative value and the composition is absolutely fine. The issue of whether such an image of a genuine geisha entertaining a client is hard to obtain is relevant for judging if this can be a mitigating factor wrt technical issues. All I see above is an opinionated rant, frankly, and not supported by any evidence. The most important evidence is whether a better picture of a genuine geisha entertaining a client can be found and gains acceptance in the article. In the last eight years, nobody has done so. -- Colin°^Talk 12:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"All I see above is an opinonated rant"..? I don't think that's true. Also, "the picture isn't very good, but there is nothing better" is　a good argument for keeping it in the article, for sure, but not for keeping it an FP. Is it really fair to call this picture one of Wikipedia's best? JPNEX (talk) 14:33, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Colin: I have to agree with JPNEX- the nomination statement seems to be well-argued, while you seem to dismiss it without comment. I also agree that "we don't have any better" is not a good argument in support of featuring (or not defeaturing) an image. J Milburn (talk) 17:45, 5 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The rules for delisting are not "would this pass FP today" and never have been. See Hysteresis. Nor have "we could do better" ever, ever, been a reason for delist. And anyway, as I demonstrate, no we haven't done better for eight years. We don't delist based on speculation. The example images listed are neither free nor are we sure they are genuine geisha. Please read the various discussions I mentioned. And you will see we simply have one person's strong opinion vs another as to whether this image is hard to obtain. There are lots of current FPs that would not pass today and we have no intention of revisiting them all on a regular basis. Some of JPNEX opinions are plain wrong: the composition is very good and resolution is never a reason for delist. But you will note, here, I have not voted keep. -- Colin°^Talk 12:49, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delist Not a good or very useful photo Nick-D (talk) 09:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per all above. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 17:04, 9 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delist The quality is of a low technical standard, even by 2005 standards. The lighting, color, and especially the composition are all off. Sven Manguard Wha? 08:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Delist per my arguments in the other geisha delist nom. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 12:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily a better photo (the maiko has her back turned towards the camera, for once) but here's one I took yesterday of a maiko entertaining a guest at a ochaya also in Gion: [12].JPNEX (talk) 05:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree it's not really a better photo, but I liked some of your other geisha/maiko photos and some of them may be useful for Wikipedia. Ðiliff «» (Talk) 09:58, 12 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think several of the images in his feed would probably be featureable. The bonsai is nice, although having the entire tree would have been preferable, and the children sumo wrestling would have a chance. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:05, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Delisted --Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 08:29, 15 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]