Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Philadelphia Phillies managers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:Gimmetrow 16:51, 3 August 2008 [1].

List of Philadelphia Phillies managers[edit]

I am nominating this list, which I have recently updated from a bulleted text list with no formatting. I have reviewed the FLC criteria with it and believe that it meets the criteria. Thanks for your consideration. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments (Gary King)
  • Unbold the "This is a list of managers and general managers of the Philadelphia Phillies." and make it more interesting. Also, it's just a stub paragraph at the moment.
    • I think it's pretty much got all the information this list could use. If you have suggestions, I'd like to hear them, especially if they are more helpful than "Make it more interesting." Sorry if I sound like a jerk, but it sounds like I didn't just spend an entire day fixing this. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • I have added some more information, after reading several other baseball and football FLs and re-reading the info that was already there. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Use ""Philadelphia Phillies Managerial Register". Baseball Reference. Retrieved on July 23, 2008." as a General reference if it's going to be used that many times.
  • "External links" goes before "References"
  • Why not place "Numbers in bold are franchise managerial records." in the Table key?
    • I actually had already done that, but forgot to remove the duplicate line. Green tickY Done. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
  • "In their 125-year history" – "In its 125-year history" as it's the franchise we're talking about, not one specific group of people
    • Green tickY Done.
  • "Of the former 51, 15 of the Phillies' " – place the numbers further away from each other to cause less confusion, otherwise it doesn't read very well

Gary King (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Questions (Maclean25)
Comments (The Rambling Man)
    • I'd like to see a lead image.
    • Four paras in the lead is twice as many as I'd expect here.
      • I removed one short paragraph (just a sentence), but this was just recently expanded in response to an earlier review. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • Consider linking franchise for non-experts in this field.
    • The seasons article you link to includes current statistics for 2008 so your "124 completed seasons" piped link is misleading - the stats will not tie up.
    • Why start talking about record losses first? Seems illogical, I'd go for success first then failures...
      • I made that choice because the Phillies have lost so many games (over 10,000) and are seen at times as a perennial loser, though that's not currently the case. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "losing seasons" -jargon, until I'd reviewed half a dozen baseball article, I had no idea what a "losing season" meant.
    • "The Phillies posted their franchise record for losses in a season during their record-setting streak of sixteen consecutive losing seasons, with 111 in 1941." - the "with 111 in 1941" feels too far away from the original assertion of losses for me.
    • "below .430 for their careers." - careers in total (i.e. including jobs outside of the Phillies) or just for the Phillies?
    • " with skipper Danny Ozark leading in playoff appearances with three." - skipper (in England at least) relates to the captain of the team, not the manager - rephrase and reword.. "Ozark leading the team to three playoff appearances."...
    • "Dallas Green is the only Phillies manager to win a World Series" when? I'd add "in 1980" and link the 1980 to the WS win and World Series to the World Series.
    • "11 years of service time" -time is redundant.
    • "as the general manager, from 1972 " and "Owens also served as the team manager in 1972," so he was team manager and general manager at once?
    • "a team executive" meaning what, exactly?
      • He served in several front office positions; I decided it was more efficient to say he was a team executive rather than stating all the different things he did. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "and he was inducted into" - he is redundant.
    • "in recognition for his " - normally "recognition of his..."
    • "with service in parts of eight seasons" - odd sounding. How long, exactly, did he "rule"?
    • Sorry but although "winningest" may be a word in US-English, it's absolutely appalling and should be banned for life. Can we actually say what it means, i.e. "The manager with the most wins.." so all international English readers can appreciate it rather than just US readers?
    • Why wait until the third or so time of Winning percentage before linking it?
    • "who went winless in the last two games of the 1938 season," is losing two games really significant?
      • It is because it posts a .000 in the winning percentage column, even though he would later manage the team to other wins. Otherwise the lowest record is much higher than .000. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • And it's not clear why he would "come back" (if you like ) from the last two games in 1938 to post .278 in 1942. I'm guessing war? Or did the management give him four years to improve?
      • I don't know either, I never found a reference to that effect. However, he's not the first manager that the team re-hired for a second stint. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 14:58, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The worst official winning percentage..." - suddenly the % is official. Are any of the others?
    • " by inaugural season manager Blondie Purcell, who posted a 13–68 record in the second part of 1883[7] (Bob Ferguson was fired after 17 games).[8]" - avoid the parentheses info - what's its context here? Unclear.
    • Not sure I get the key - a .714 in pink is Franchise managerial records? This is all about the managerial records. If you mean the best achieved for the franchise, you should consider a reword.
    • Why the two small grey boxes in the key?
      • They are just there as spacers; I left them blank and also took them out completely, and neither of them looked good aesthetically, IMO.
    • The key is also incomplete - what's PA, PW, PL etc?
      • That's why the footnotes are there. There are no links to appropriate articles for playoff wins, ployff appearance, etc. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • "First Year" - just "First year" is fine. Same with Last year.
    • You have a WS col, at least one guy has 0 and then others have the en-dash. Difference between 0 and – is...?
      • Actually, they are em-dashes, but I chose to do that because it matches another current FLC candidate, and because it makes it easy to see which managers made the playoffs. There were previously lots of 0s, and it looked very confusing and muddled.
    • I would left-align the names.
      • This was an aesthetic decision as well; I think that the table looks better if everything is centered, rather than one column being different. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • Why not make the table sortable? (KV5 moved this question)
    • I'd actually merge the first and last year cols to make a year range.
      • If the table is to be sortable, I can't do this. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
      • Made the table sortable, did some research on sortkeys and combined first year and last year columns. Green tickY Done. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
    • present doesn't need to be in italics.
    • If you want to use GM as an abbreviation, put it behind the first instance of "General Manager"
    • Refs 3 and 4 need publisher or work info as a minimum.
  • The Rambling Man (talk) 19:29, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (blackngold29)
  • Support - This is a fine model for the rest of MLB's manager lists. Blackngold29 18:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I can't ask for a higher compliment than for others to use my work as an example. Many thanks! KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 19:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Questions for the reviewers
  • Do you think that I should put a hidden sortkey in the table so that the names sort by last name instead of first?
  • Does the general manager table need to be sorted?

--KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 15:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't see a need to sort the general manager table. --maclean 19:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (Crzycheetah)
  • Oppose
Resolved comments from Crzycheetah 19:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The very first mention of the franchise should state the full name "Philadelphia Phillies".
    • 51 managers and ten general managers should not be in boldface.
    • Why link the years to "year in baseball" when you can link them to pages listed at {{MLB seasons}}?
      • I don't know anything about this template; this is the first I've heard of it. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
        • So? You still didn't link the years to MLB seasons.--Crzycheetah 18:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • So... I don't know how to use the template. I feel as if I'm being treated as if I know nothing about the encyclopedia because there's a template I haven't seen before. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
            • OK, now I understand the problem here. What I want you to do is to switch {{by|1941}} to [[1941 Philadelphia Phillies season|1941]]. 1941 is just an example. Why? because right now, your years are linked to the general basball pages while I suggest to link them to the Phillies seasons links.--Crzycheetah 20:45, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • Should I link each season manually, or is that a template I can use, above? KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 20:47, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • Manually, you can just copy the code above and just change the years.--Crzycheetah 21:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                • I think he wants you to use [[1995 Major League Baseball season|1995 season]]. Blackngold29 22:15, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
                  • To be honest, using Major League Baseball season would probably be better anyway; the Phillies seasons are far from completed. The articles are mostly empty with just an infobox. Thoughts? KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 03:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(→)That's what I suggested at first. Go ahead!--Crzycheetah 04:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Crzycheetah 08:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC) I feel that there are some assumptions of bad faith in this review. This editor and i have conflicted previously in an FLC review and I feel that this is being used as an opportunity for an argument rather than an honest review. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 18:55, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're the one assuming bad faith right now. I provided some comments and you just started arguing each and every one of them.--Crzycheetah 19:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Do not begin a sentence with Of those 51 managers... - reword that sentence
      • Why? This was already reworded in response to an earlier problem. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
        • Don't start sentences with "of". You can write Fifteen of the 51 managers have been...--Crzycheetah 18:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • You still haven't given me an answer. The question was "why?" not "what can I do instead?" KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
            • Why? Because sentences do not begin with "of".--Crzycheetah 19:47, 2 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why are "Franchise's most by a manager" colored? If I want to know that I can just sort the columns to see who comes first.
    • Current similar FLs, Mariners and Rangers, use orange color and an asterisk to indicate Hall of Famers while here yellow color and a cross are used. How about some consistency?
    • Table footnotes "a" through "f" should be in the Key section instead; plus, the WPct explanation.
      • I used the same convention here as I used in Philadelphia Phillies seasons; there was no issue with this exact same format for that featured list. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
        • It's like me saying "hey, I paid $3 a gallon one time, why should I pay $4.50 now?" Times are changing and standards change as well.--Crzycheetah 18:16, 1 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • I reformatted the level 4 headings on this page to ;headings as they were playing havoc with WP:FLC, sticking edit sections where they shouldn't be. With regards to the list,
  • "player-managers,"[1] -- comma should be outside the quotes
  • "meaning that" -- unencyclopedic tone
  • "The Phillies posted their franchise record for losses in a season during their record-setting streak of sixteen consecutive losing seasons," I don't get this.. I think its due to the use of "season" twice.. Can it be recast?
  • footnote [a] (Lede) could easily be worked into the sentence as prose
  • "Seven managers have taken the Phillies to the postseason," Where is this?
  • "The manager with the highest winning percentage in franchise history is Bob Allen, who accrued a .714 winning percentage over his 35 games as the Phillies' skipper, though Andy Cohen did win the only game he managed." -- so the manager with the highest winning percentage actually is Cohen.
  • Keys are needed to explain what WPct, PA, PW, PL, and WS mean, instead of being in footnotes
  • Instead of "* = Manuel's statistics and franchise totals through 2007 season" and the * by his name, simply put in the Lede or just before the table, "Statistics correct through the 2007 season"
  • If you decide to leave the footnotes in, the footnotes section shouldn't be divided into subsections, because clicking the second [a] doesn't take you to the [a] in the table
  • Caption could be recast as "Player/GM Herb Pennock, 1944–1948"
  • Use {{cite web}} for the general reference, too
  • Can we get an external link to the team's website?

Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 07:41, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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