Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of New York Mets managers/archive3

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 19:13, 21 September 2009 [1].

List of New York Mets managers[edit]

Nominator(s): Mm40 (talk), Blackwatch21 (talk)

I am nominating this for featured list because I (duh!) think it meets the criteria. I felt it was ready last time, and it seemed on course to pass, but due to apparent miscommunication, some issues went unaddressed. This is the third attempt for the list (the other two were as List of New York Mets managers), so I'm hoping third time's the charm! Mm40 (talk) 02:20, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, shouldn't Blackwatch21 get nomination credits for this? He did do approximately half the work. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 02:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll ask him if he particularly wants it; it seems like he's done less than half the work, and the only content of his remaining is the list of managers. Mm40 (talk) 03:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well he did do some of the prose, like how many managers, and current manager, etc. I just think it'll be rude if an initial contributor does not get credit for half of the work he has done to an article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 03:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is the difference between the version after his last edit and the current version. In any case, I've sent a message to Blackwatch telling him that he can add himself if he wants to. Mm40 (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Can we standardize the name? It's inconsistent with other manager lists and redundant (repetition of "manager" is quite clumsy). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had the name as List of New York Mets managers, but it was moved after I left. How does Management of the New York Mets sound? Mm40 (talk) 12:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The correct name should be List of New York Mets managers, it doesn't matter if the general managers are listed. BW21.--Black Watch 21 21:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only way we should deviate from the "List of [team] managers" format is if there are owners listed (a la List of Pittsburgh Pirates managers and owners). KV5 (Talk • Phils) 01:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 19:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

~~Leftover comment from last FLC: The colors are only really needed in the name column. As I said before, it's a bit much to have them in all columns.~~
Done (thanks to chzz) Mm40 (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~"his .595–417 record , which gives him a 588 winning percentage". Space before comma, and period in wrong place for percentage.~~
Fixed. Mm40 (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Baseball America's Executive Database doesn't qualify as a reliable source since it accepts user submissions. This goes to show that not everything from what appears to be a good source actually is.
It says "Information for the Baseball America Executive Database was compiled through listings in the annual Sporting News Guide series, contemporary newspaper reports, interviews and other sources." Although it says they accept submissions, I'm guessing they fact-check them. Also, Baseball-Reference thinks it's reliable (linking to the page I used as a source). Additionally, the database is mentioned here. If all else fails, I can go through GM-by-GM. Mm40 (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Going through GM-by-GM would be the best option. The provided link doesn't say anything about whether the database fact-checks these user submissions, and I'm still not convinced that it's reliable. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an outsider who has never worked on sports-related articles, the source looks good to me. Lots of big websites accept screened user submissions, that's obviously nothing new. I'm highly doubting that this kind of website, that's otherwise gaining its information from official sources, would simply let suggestions come in without fact-checking/verification. JamieS93 15:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted at RSN on the subject. I think it's best to have non-sport editors think about it. Mm40 (talk) 16:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am continually shocked at how difficult it is to find official information on general manager histories. Some teams list them on their official page, and others do not. There obviously are reliable sources for most GMs - in annual team yearbooks and media guides, in the annual Sporting News guides (I think) - but it is surprising how difficult it can be to find this information consolidated reliably. There is a few things that support considering the Baseball-America database for this. For one thing, Baseball-America itself should be a reliable source for items they publish. And Baseball-Reference, which is a reliable source, supplies links to this database in its team encyclopedias. But the problem I see is Baseball America's own disclaimers about the database here: [2]. Particularly item 8: "In that regard, while we have taken a giant first step in building this database, it remains a collaborative effort between us and the baseball community, including you. There will be mistakes..." While we do not (and cannot) require reliable sources to be infallible, when the source itself acknowledges its uncertainty about the validity of the information, that seems like a red flag. I assume that even though BA checks the facts to the extent possible, they realize that some of the information (though not necessarily the information used in this article, which conforms to my recollections as a Met fan since the 1970s) in the database just is not readily verifiable. Rlendog (talk) 17:19, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus at RSN seems to be that BA is reliable. I guess we can wait though. Mm40 (talk) 18:14, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~The New York Mets parent category can be removed due to the presence of the managers subcategory.~~
Removed. Mm40 (talk) 00:00, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (17–14) 22:22, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Isn't Bobby Valentine's tenure 7 years, not 8 (96, 97, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02)? And isn't Davey Johnson the longest tenured, by either definition (tied w/ Valentine for 7 years, and has 9 more games)? Staxringold _talk^contribs 16:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And why does the table include awards that have nothing to do with that manager's tenure w/ the Mets, like MotY awards for Torre with the Yankees, Frank Howard's RotY award, etc, etc? Staxringold _talk^contribs 16:33, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done with both I think. I probably made the mistake because both Valentine and Johnson managed for part of seasons. Mm40 (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cautious support – Consensus on the source here and at RSN seems to be against my opinion, so I am willing to bend on it as long as others feel it's okay, though I'm not 100% convinced myself. Everything else appears fine. Giants2008 (17–14) 19:29, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

"In its 48-year history, the New York Mets baseball franchise of Major League Baseball's National League has employed 19 managers and 14 general managers (GMs)." This is way too much information and blue (from the many links) packed into one sentence. The opening in List of New York Mets Opening Day starting pitchers is much superior.
"This was the beginning of seven losing seasons"-->This was the first of seven losing seasons
"employed four ~~different~~ managers"
"managers to win a World Series"-->managers to have won a World Series
"World Series: Hodges in 1969 against" Comma, not colon.
"1,012 games of service over seven seasons"-->1,012 games of service over 7 seasons (consistency in comparable quantities)
"full season or more was Johnson"-->full season or more is Johnson
Don't use bold as a marker; use a symbol instead (such as an asterisk)
The alt text needs some work; describe only things that you can verify from the image (for example, you can't tell someone's name by looking at the picture alone).
Why is it necessary to note that Johnny Murphy died on January 14, 1970? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Because it explains why his time at GM was over; I noted whenever the change was caused by something special. Mm40 (talk) 02:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. I've dealt with everything (hopefully up to your standards). Mm40 (talk) 02:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from KV5

Comments from KV5

List should be sortable. This means a format change in the headers is necessary.
Done (I completely reentered the table, solving all other table-related issues). Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You don't use the abbreviation GM, so you don't need to show it. If you are going to keep it in the article, then all other occurrences of "general manager" should be changed to "GM".
Done. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The manager with the highest winning percentage over a full season or more is Johnson; his 595–417 record, which gives him a .588 winning percentage, is first on the all-time wins list for Mets managers" - eliminate redundancy. You essentially say that he has the highest winning percentage twice.
Rewritten. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"This was the first of seven losing seasons" - clarify; were these consecutive losing seasons or not?
Yes, I've clarified. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What's a player-manager? I know, but casual readers might not. We don't want them to have to leave the article via a link to find out because they might never come back.
I've added a blurb. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Gil Hodges and Johnson are the only Mets managers to win a World Series," - comma should be a colon. In that sentence, I would also prefer to see the unlinked name first; it sounds better to have a last name followed by a first and last (at least to my ear). I do understand that they are currently in chronological order.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The year-links in the prose, while they give context, are easily found in the table and are therefore extraneous.
Removed. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Johnson managed the most games (1012)." - I would prefer 1,012 since it's in prose, but MOS says either is acceptable.
Done for consistency with rest of the lead. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Remove fixed image widths except in the lead.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 17:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Make sure that statistical rows are complete and consistent. If there are numbers, then they should all be numbers. For example, Yogi Berra's row says 1, 1, 1, —. If he didn't win any World Series, it should say 0, not "blank". Valentine and Randolph too.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Philips took a leave of absence in 1998, but his first term says only 1997.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some references say Baseball-Reference and some say Baseball-Reference.com.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All ref titles for managers are wrong. The title of the page is "[xxx name] Managerial Record", not "Coaching Record". This is especially important since a coach and a manager in baseball are two completely different things.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When are the statistics current to? No date is provided. If this is being updated in-season, it should not be. I would suggest a rollback to the end of 2008 to satisfy Cr.6 or, if other users disagree, place hidden comments in the article at the end of the 2009 season notifying editors not to update until the end of the 2010 season.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope these comments help. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 21:20, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Johnny Murphy died in 1970, but his term is only listed until 1969.
He died before the 1970 season started. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The table doesn't say that. It's not clear that it's referring to seasons only. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified. Mm40 (talk)
I would also denote managers who are members of the Mets Hall of Fame, as well as the NBHOFM.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now it looks like the numbers are members of the Mets Hall of Fame. I would either add another color for players who are members of both or (preferred) remove color for that and just use a symbol. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you ok with the current use? Mm40 (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perfectly fine. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 17:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KV5 (Talk • Phils) 17:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Rlendog (talk)

Comments

The GM references need to be resolved.
As I look at this now, there is a gap in the GMs between 1999 to 2004. I believe Steve Phillips was the GM for those years (the Baseball-America database lists him as such). I don't remember noticing this before, so it may be a recently introduced typo. But if there is a reason for the gap, it should be addressed in the article.
Yeah, it was a typo. Fixed.
Double check the links. The link to Joe McDonald (baseball executive) was to the wrong Joe McDonald. I fixed that one, but I would double check to make sure there aren't others.
Done. Mm40 (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, I would not denote members of the Mets Hall of Fame separately (especially since 2 of the 4 relevant members are already members of the Baseball HOF and one of the others is always on the cusp of election). But I see that was a response to a comment above and it isn't a problem to include. On the other hand, the comment that KV5 just made as I was trying to post this is the way I would handle this since I think it would look better and be more accurate.Rlendog (talk) 17:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Are you okay with the current solution? Mm40 (talk) 17:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes. And since the RSN seems to be agreeing that the GM source is reliable, I support. Rlendog (talk) 19:43, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. All issues resolved. Rlendog (talk) 19:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

"Johnson is the longest-tenured manager in franchise history, with 1,012 games of service over 7 seasons (1984–1989 and part of 1990)" If you're defining longest tenure by seasons then it looks like Johnson shares the record with Bobby Valentine, if you're defining it by games then the record doesn't need repeating at the end of the third paragraph. --Jpeeling (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the end of the third paragraph. Mm40 (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support The lead got cleaned up nicely. Staxringold _talk^contribs 04:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.