Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd album)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:29, 13 September 2009 [1].

Wish You Were Here (Pink Floyd album)[edit]

Nominator(s): Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Ok so it isn't quite the greatest rock album ever like DSotM, but its probably up there in the top ten and certainly ranks top of some people's lists. Its slightly shorter than I'd like but that's more down to a paucity of written material than anything else (DSotM has entire books written about it, WYWH does not). Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The alt text is quite good and very detailed, but it's a bit long; see WP:ALT#Brevity. Relatively unimportant etails like "The sky is blue with no clouds." can be omitted. Eubulides (talk) 08:30, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'll give a more thorough review later, but here are a few right off the bat:
  • discogs.com is not reliable in the same way that IMDb is not reliable, as they're both user-generated. You've double sourced the release information you're citing anyway, so unless I'm mistaken removing the discogs citation doesn't change anything.
  • Reference 45 seems to be broken; check over this real quick, seems like a simple fix. It's evident from the ref name alone exactly what you were trying to cite.
  • Same issue as DSotM on the formatting of the "Sales chart performance" table.
  • Another minor issue, which also came up with DSotM; I'm not sure how exactly this is fixed, but it bothers me that the titles of web references are italicized and not in quotes as they should be. Can someone explain why this is?

--Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 07:48, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Regarding the citations, they're formatted entirely correctly; this article uses the {{citation}} template. There's no "as they should be" about it – while the {{cite web}} template puts them in quotes instead of italics, there's no requirement to use one template over the other as long as the use within the article is consistent. – iridescent 09:01, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • All done, ref 45 had been accidently deleted by another user. I prefer to use the Citation template (easier for newcomers to understand). Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:46, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A few other things I've noticed:

  • The paragraph that begins "In 2007, one of Germany's largest public radio stations..." in the "Sales" subsection should be up in the "Reception" section with the other retrospective ratings and listings.
  • It is not made clear in the text that Ben Edmunds is writing for Rolling Stone.
  • Names are used inconsistently; After the first mention of the full name in the main text, the person should be referred to by last name only. Also, you say Rick Wright and Richard Wright, which is potentially confusing.
  • "première" and "premièred" - Are the alternate spellings necessary?
    • I'm uncertain what you mean here? The word is spelt as it should be (check the OED). Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that the first Gilmour quote would be better positioned in Template:Quote box. In general, blockquotes work best when they're followed by a sentence that ends in a colon, like the Edmunds quote. In this case though the Gilmour quote just sorta floats there.
    • Not a fan of quote boxes tbh. I think it looks fine as it is but it isn't a big deal for me. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This last one by no means bars the article from a support, as the info may not even exist as far as I know, but I'm curious if any band members other than Wright and Gilmour have said anything retrospectively about the album. Is there any Mason or Waters perspective here? --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 01:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Waters has said that he felt that the long instrumental sections were unnecessary, that the lyrics should introduce the music, rather than the music introducing the lyrics. I'll have to check on what Mason thinks. I already have a fair bit from Waters in there though. I'm creating a completely new Pink Floyd article in my sandbox here and may expand upon this there, as I feel Waters' criticism is more to do with the direction he was taking as a lyricist, rather than criticism of the album per se. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All my points have been sufficiently addressed and I now believe that the article is feature-worthy. I really have to commend the awesome job you're doing with the Pink Floyd articles, Parrot of Doom. Nice work! --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 04:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
    • http://www.hypergallery.com/prints/wish-you-were-here-26.html
      • A direct outlet for Hipgnosis' work, I believe the short narration from Thorgerson is from an interview performed for the site, by the site. IIRC I discovered the link in an article on a Pink Floyd fansite. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • It doesn't matter now anyway - I've sourced the same information from Schaffner's book, which is used throughout the article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.rocklistmusic.co.uk/qlists.html
      • [2] - basically a fansite. I've looked around it and cross-checked it with other sources (sadly Q Magazine doesn't host its lists itself), and it appears solid and reliable to me. Although it lacks spit and polish, I've found that such fansites are often quite meticulous. Of course some aren't, but this one appears fairly sound to me. Its only referencing a single factoid however so it wouldn't be a loss were it to be removed. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • One of my concerns is do they have permission to host the list? Presumably it's copyrighted, and if they don't have permission, we're linking to a copyright violation, which is a no-no. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Deleted this from the article, moved it to the talk page. Hopefully someone will have a copy of those magazines, and we can then reinsert at a later date. Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.inthestudio.net/famous-interviews/index.asp
      • This is Redbeard's own site, hosting his own radio broadcasts. The interview with Richard Wright (used as a source on this article) is contained within. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I did some minor tweaks, but comprehensiveness and prose look good. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I am pretty contented with this.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 11:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, on (rather unusually) 1e. The article is currently indefinitely protected, with the protection log note "edit warring/content dispute". I see edit warring by multiple authors, but no discussion or resolution on the article talk page; rather it appears an admin simply locked some editors out of the dispute. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 04:38, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to refer to this new editor inserting this source. I guess this can be settled on consensus as to whether it is a reliable source or not. PS: Well picked up though. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:48, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It is related to the actions of that editor, who proceeded to spam unreliable review links across a range of Pink Floyd articles using first an IP, and then an account. The source he used contains 'reviews' from members of the public. When repeatedly asked to justify the reliability of the source he resorted to abuse, using his IP address to create edits like this. You can see similar issues on DSotM, and Meddle.
This is not an edit war - its vandalism, pure and simple, hence the article's protected status. You can check the history of those three articles and see that this user is alone in making these changes, and that several users and admins reverted them. Parrot of Doom (talk) 08:40, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed the protection now. It was intended as a short term measure to prevent disruption as described by PoD above. As Casliber says, consensus will prevail, but I'm pretty sure it was as described by PoD. Apologies for any inconvenience. – B.hotep •talk• 09:12, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – with regard to criteria 1a-e, 2 and 4. Have the images been reviewed? Graham Colm Talk 11:45, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • An image review is lacking, and will supporters please review and comment on the outstanding issues of reliability of sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think reference 41 is not needed; the facts are unlikely to be contested, and are indeed common knowledge to Floyd's fans. Q Magazine (refs 51 and 52) is a respected publication, and although the references do not link directly to the publisher's website, again I think that these facts are unlikely to be contested. IMHO, the image review remains the major obstacle—but I still rely on other reviewers for this. Graham Colm Talk 19:49, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If pushed I can probably remove the Hypergallery reference without losing too much information. It'll have to wait until tomorrow though. As for the Q list, it isn't a major loss if it goes. Parrot of Doom (talk) 20:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, and we seem to be forgetting that citations are required "for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged". Graham Colm Talk 20:36, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This won't be a problem now - see above Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. File:Syd Barrett Abbey Road 1975.jpg is used in flagrant violation of WP:NFCC#8; readers do not need to see Mr. Barrett to understand the section of the article, and the photograph is not the subject of critical commentary. File:WishYouWereHereBag.jpg has dubious fair use tagging and could be considered to violate WP:NFCC#3a, although it is the subject of separate commentary so I wouldn't oppose on that alone. Stifle (talk) 17:08, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Really, despite not a single member of the band recognising him? You don't think such a major change in physical appearance warrants the use of this image? How are readers to fully understand the transformation Barrett had undergone, without an image? Parrot of Doom (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • IMHO this image is important—the album is a tribute to Syd Barrett—it's use is not a "flagrant violation". The irony of Barrett's unexpected appearance at the recording, and his not being even recognised must be described and illustrated if this article is to be deemed comprehensive. Graham Colm Talk 18:59, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Parrot: this is an article about the album, not about Mr. Barrett. @GrahamColm: I still can't see how this is essential to readers' understanding of the article, or how its omission would be detrimental to that understanding. Stifle (talk) 20:31, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • "an article about the album, not about Mr. Barrett." - I trust you understand, or have read, what the album is about? Parrot of Doom (talk) 21:15, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • The image is also used in Barrett's page here. Essential is a tricky word to define...I think the photo adds alot, surely, but the article is not unreadable without it (?) I can go either way on this one. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • @Parrot: Yes, I have. I still don't think readers need to see this image of him to understand the article. Stifle (talk) 08:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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