Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 20:22, 15 October 2015 [1].

Vampire: The Masquerade – Redemption[edit]

Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2000 role-playing game set in White Wolf Publishing's World of Darkness. It was developed by Nihilistic Software and released by Activision for Microsoft Windows and Mac OS. The game is based on White Wolf's role-playing game Vampire: The Masquerade; it follows the adventures of Christof Romuald, a 12th-century French crusader who is killed and revived as a Vampire. The game depicts Christof's centuries-long journey from the Dark Ages of 12th-century Prague and Vienna to modern-day London and New York City in search of his humanity and his kidnapped love, the nun Anezka.

The article is as comprehensive and detailed as can be about this game. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cas Liber[edit]

Oh goody, never got to play this but did play Jyhad quite a bit...taking a look now. WIll jot queries below and copyedit as I go (please revert if I accidentally guff the meaning) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first sentence is misleading - need to add something that lets me know it is a computer-based RPG. I would swap the sentences around so it is something like this, but need to remove one "rpg" from first sentence. I have reverted it and you can play with it.
  • Sentences in the lead are a little on the short side, which makes the prose a little abrupt-sounding.
  • Do we have to say "playable character" all the time? Can't we just say "character" or "protagonist" or something....
  • I'd link mesmerize, melee weapon, gothic, and linear adventure (if possible)
  • and the monstrous Nosferatu are condemned to live in shadows to avoid humanity --> "and the monstrous Nosferatu are condemned to remain hidden in the shadows" (?)
  • The setting and plot sections overlap a bit too much for my liking - my solution would be to remove everything from "As a member of the Brujah under Ecaterina..." onwards and incorporate that into the following section.
  • ...while a duo called[Youth Engine provided - a glitch?

The prose flows better in the body of the article than the lead, which is a good thing. More later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:17, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for taking a while to respond, unexpected things came up.
  • The first sentence is misleading - need to add something that lets me know it is a computer-based RPG. I would swap the sentences around so it is something like this, but need to remove one "rpg" from first sentence. I have reverted it and you can play with it.
  • Sentences in the lead are a little on the short side, which makes the prose a little abrupt-sounding.
  • I've tried to rewrite this and expanded it a little by adding some of the gameplay functionality in there.
  • Do we have to say "playable character" all the time? Can't we just say "character" or "protagonist" or something....
  • I've tried to change it up a bit by alternating to different versions.
  • I'd link mesmerize, melee weapon, gothic, and linear adventure (if possible)
    • Done for all.
  • and the monstrous Nosferatu are condemned to live in shadows to avoid humanity --> "and the monstrous Nosferatu are condemned to remain hidden in the shadows" (?)
  • Done.
  • The setting and plot sections overlap a bit too much for my liking - my solution would be to remove everything from "As a member of the Brujah under Ecaterina..." onwards and incorporate that into the following section.
  • I see what you're saying, but I find that the separate setting/characters section allows you to go into more detail without bloating the plot which I like to keep 700 words or less and to the point. Like I could cover the Vukodlak backstory in the plot section but it would really start to get long. IDeally I'd also like to have the voice actors in there but apart from Curtis Armstrong as Pink (Booger from Revenge of the Nerds no less), I can't find evidence for any other actor.
  • ...while a duo called[Youth Engine provided - a glitch?
  • Yeah it was a markup error, fixed.
Thanks for taking the time to review this Cas, please feel free to give me any other feedback. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 15:24, 4 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, looking alot better - I see where you're coming from about the prose. It is a tricky one and I don't think there are any correct answers per se. I'll take another look. PS: Let me do the striking of my comments - happy if you slot in answers underneath mine. What I do is use colours - see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Suillus luteus/archive1..and no templates :) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:36, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, more:

Experience points are awarded for the completion of objectives and the defeat of enemies; these points are used to unlock or upgrade existing disciplines and improve each characters' statistics, such as strength or agility. - could be folded a bit, as in, "Awarded for the completion of objectives and the defeat of enemies, experience points are used to unlock or upgrade existing disciplines and improve each characters' statistics, such as strength or agility." or "Completing objectives and defeating enemies results in experience points, which are used to unlock or upgrade existing disciplines and improve each characters' statistics, such as strength or agility." - in these the subjects are linked more closely (not a deal-breaker but worth thinking about)
Changed to the second one, but shifted "results in" to "is rewarded with" Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
From the outset, the team wanted to make a large, ambitious RPG - err, people or plans are ambitious, not the end result. I'd remove it...or just use the adjective "grand" here or something
Changed it to grand. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In the Reception section you've flogged the adjective "mixed" a bit, why not use some synonyms...."muted"..."equivocal"..."cool".....(possibly) "ambivalent" etc.
Done. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:14, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I think I tentatively support on comprehensiveness and prose, pending more critical eyes than mine having a lookover. cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:34, 9 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your time Casliber. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:16, 10 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: this is just an aside, but would it be possible to include one or more decorative/illustrative images? Are any public domain photos of the team members available—or perhaps of the Gothic architecture that inspired the game's look? At the moment, there's a whole lot of text and not much visual interest, which gives the article a very intimidating first impression. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:42, 13 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have tried and tried again just now to find free images but there just don't seem to be any. Plenty of NFC but just no free stuff. I've added one image about Gothic art at least. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:36, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The two new images are a big improvement! Nice work. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:45, 14 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I managed to get a source and image for CUrtis Armstrong too so there's another image there JimmyBlackwing. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:52, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Article looks great now. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cyclonebiskit[edit]

Resolved comments from Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
*I've made a couple corrections/changes myself here and there to fix grammar or sentence flow. Please double check these to make sure they retain the intended meaning of the original.
  • The article needs a decent copy edit all around from what I can tell; the prose in general is a bit clunky. I'm not the greatest at copy editing, but I'll offer what help I can below. I'd suggest requesting assistance from a dedicated copy editor (see: members of the Guild of Copy Editors). A good rule of thumb for copy editing is to read something out-loud, and correct what sounds weird.
General review
  • First thing I noticed was there is almost no information regarding development in the lead; the only mention is when it began and how much it cost. I'm not sure if this is normal practice, but considering how large this section is, it warrants another sentence or two.
  • Both "12th-century" and "12th century" are used throughout the article. The latter of these is the proper version so instances using the hyphen need to be corrected.
  • When discussing options "or" should be used instead of "and" to show it's a set of different choices. Also, when listing "things" in this fashion, a colon (:) should be used, not a semicolon (;).
    • i.e. Characters can be set to one of three modes; defensive, neutral, and offensive.
  • Make sure foot notes are in order. There are three instances of this:
    • The playable character can lead a group of three additional allies into battle, controlling their actions to attack a single enemy or to use specific powers.[3][1]
    • The game's graphics received near-unanimous praise. Game Revolution said its "brilliant" graphics were among the best in gaming and Next Generation said the graphics were the best in any PC RPG.[17][10]
    • ...pathfinding failures meant allies would become stuck on environmental objects or each other during combat, use up their costliest abilities on enemies regardless of their threat, and were poor at staying alive in battle.[15][17][81][8]
  • When discussing disciplines, the prose suddenly switches to mesmerizing then comes back to disciplines. Needs to be reordered or reworded to flow more smoothly.
  • The last paragraph of the gameplay section needs to be re-written for flow and comprehension. One sentence in particular is quite overwhelming: Players can also use the multiplayer tools to create new scenarios using the Storyteller interface, which allows the Storyteller to place items, monsters, or characters anywhere on the current map; modify character statistics such as experience points, abilities, and disciplines, and control any character in the game.
Comments

I've only reviewed through the gameplay section, but I'll have more tomorrow when I'm more awake. Would rather not provide a half-asleep review~ Cyclonebiskit (talk) 01:39, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • The article was actually copyedited by the GOCE in June.
    • It might be because I'm used to a different writing style stemming from tropical cyclone articles... I'll readdress this with specific points where I feel another copy edit is necessary as I go through the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've addressed the ref ordering issue.
  • Fixed "12th century"
  • Went through the article and changed ", and" to ", or" where I noticed options. Similarly changed ";" to ":"
  • I'm unclear on the "mesmerize" point raised, it is a Discipline and the ones mentioned after it are also Disciplines.
    • Ah, that needs to be made clear then. The way it's written now led me to assume that mesmerizing was a different aspect and not part of disciplines. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • RE: Last sentence of gameplay - "Redemption features an online multiplayer component, allowing players to play through scenarios together. One player becomes the in-game Storyteller, who guides the other players through a scenario using the Storyteller interface which is used to modify or create scenarios. The interface allows the Storyteller to place items, monsters, or characters anywhere on the current map; modify character statistics such as experience points, abilities, and disciplines, and control any character in the game. These functions allow the Storyteller to dynamically manipulate the current play environment while the other players traverse it." Yay or nay? Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Try this version: "Redemption features an online multiplayer component, allowing players to engage in scenarios together. One player assumes the role of the in-game Storyteller, guiding other players through a scenario using the Storyteller interface. This interface allows the Storyteller to modify or create scenarios, including the placement of items, monsters, and characters across the current map. Character statistics, such as experience points, abilities, and disciplines can also be modified. Additionally, the Storyteller can assume the role of any character at any given time. These functions allow the Storyteller to dynamically manipulate the current play environment while the other players traverse it." Cyclonebiskit (talk) 21:49, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I added "Disciplines can also allow the player to mesmerize an enemy" to the start of the sentence, I think that makes it more clear?
      • I like your Storyteller version, I added that in.
      • I added some info to the lead that covers some of the broad development strokes - "Founded in March 1998, Nihilistic's twelve-man team began development of Redemption the following month as their first game. It took the team twenty-four months to complete on a budget of US$1.8 million. The team relied on eight outside contractors to provide elements that the team could not supply, such as music and artwork. The game's development was difficult: late changes to software forced the developers to abandon completed code and assets; a focus on high-quality graphics and sound meant that the game ran poorly on some computer systems; and the original scope of the game exceeded the game's schedule and budget, forcing the team to cancel planned features." Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:40, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • All my concerns have been addressed and after some additional minor copy edits, I'm happy to support. I do have some qualms about how the "Reception" section is written, with the prose becoming a monotonous repetition of "X said Y. Z said A. B said C. etc..." but I don't really see a way around this without fluffing the section unnecessarily. Additionally, my prior statement about needing a(nother) copy edit stemmed from similar writing to this. There's nothing technically wrong with the article, which is why I'm supporting it, but it could be written in a more engaging manner in places. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Image review
  • All images check out
  • I've left the image review separate for the convenience of the FAC delegates. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:46, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Cirt[edit]

  • Support. The article is really of quite a high level of quality and the writing certainly is, as well. The sourcing appears to be meticulous, throughout, and supports the factual statements in the article's body text. Good fleshed out Reception section. I'd like to see the game's sequel, Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines, brought to WP:FA, as well. :) Good luck, — Cirt (talk) 03:37, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SnowFire[edit]

Mostly looks good. The development section in particular is amazingly detailed, great work! A few comments / questions, though:

  • Design: "They came up with a basic solution that would be solved later into development". I think you should be more explicit that "They came up with a basic solution and planned on improving pathfinding later into development" or the like, since the later sentences make clear it wasn't really solved.
  • Release: You jump right into the Collector's Edition, but while obvious, it might be worth somehow indicating there was a vanilla edition that didn't have the cool gizmos, right?
  • Reception: This is something that other Wikipedia articles like to do, in fairness, but I don't think "sound" / "audio" is actually a thing. There's no guarantee that voice acting, background music, and sound effects have any relation to one another in quality, barring some kind of general encoding problem. It's fine to discuss those three topics, but I wouldn't pretend that there's something called "sound" which got mixed reviews.
  • Reception: "counter to the greater focus on political intrigue and social interaction prevalent in the first game in the series, Vampire – the Masquerade." This seems misleading, as it implies there was another computer game earlier in the series. "prevalent in the original table-top role-playing game" perhaps?
  • Reception: I'm quite shocked that the multiplayer was apparently reviewed so well, with all 3 reviews being largely positive. If that's truly the case, I suppose it's fine, but I seem to recall that this was something that was *severely* overhyped in previews, and landed with a dull thud. Basically the MP had been suggested as something that would allow people to play a more story-heavy game online, closer to the tabletop roots, and the tools just plain weren't there for that. It's a game where you do Diablo-esque hacking through hordes of enemies and that's it. This is in addition to the MP bugs already mentioned. I'm pretty sure the game never acquired a notable multiplayer following (unlike, say, Diablo II of the era) but I suppose the *lack* of something can be hard to source. Additionally critical reception for multiplayer is classically a weird area, since critic reviews are published at time of *release* and often can't comment on whether there was a long-term MP following. Anyway, I'm not sure it's possible, but I'd definitely hope for more sources on the multiplayer aspect's irrelevance. (Or maybe I'm just crazy and all the sources really do disagree with me.) SnowFire (talk) 22:56, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • --> changes so far
    • Modified the design sentence
    • Modified the release sentence
    • Modified sentence about the combat being prevalent in the tabletop game (a victim of copyediting)
    • I removed the sentence lead-in about Redemption's sound so now it's just a general paragraph related to audio.
    • I can't say I ever played the multiplayer part and I wouldn't have had the same access to the net then as I do now so I'm just going off the three reviews that covered it, but I'm gonna go back over them. As you say it's harder with MP as those reviews will cover immediate reactions but not something like Diablo-esque longevity. Though I think Diablo probably had a more interesting base-game to bring more people in. Reading the development section, the part that perhaps landed with a thud is that they promised to let you co-op the Singleplayer campaign? The sources from that time that I've read at least don't seem to promise anything multiplayer wise besides that, that was not in hte final game.
    • BTW, thanks for taking the time to review this.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:03, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looking at a few more reviews, the multiplayer seems to be the part that's genuinely singled out as good (IF the vampire community gets behind it). Here's ZDNet and Gamespot only really talking about the limitations of the interface itself to craft the scenarios. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:16, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It's weird to me how the MP was well-reviewed, but if that's what the sources say, so be it. (Probably too obscure now to find fansites or the like which would be the main source of a contrary opinion, I'd imagine.) Looks good otherwise. SnowFire (talk) 18:04, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks SnowFire. I've tried looking around a little more but can'#t really find anything bad said about it, like at GameOver, it looks like it was just somehing that never really clicked with people. I did add a little negativity to the review section regarding the interface criticism however.Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 19:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

FAC Coord's Note - Did I miss a source review? Graham Beards (talk) 16:55, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe so. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:21, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have made a request at the FAC Talk Page for one. Graham Beards (talk) 17:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review by ProtoDrake[edit]

I've gone through all the sources, passed them through Checklinks, and checked for consistency. Everything seems very much in order. I am willing to give my Support to this article's promotion to FA. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:54, 12 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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