Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tecumseh/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 22 May 2021 [1].

Tecumseh[edit]

Nominator(s): Kevin1776 (talk) 23:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's been 14 years since I've submitted a Featured Article candidate, but winter and COVID conspired to bring me back. This article is, I believe, an important one. Two centuries after Tecumseh's death, he is still widely admired and studied, and places continue to honor him with new memorials. The internet is filled with old myths about Tecumseh, long since corrected in scholarly sources. This article can now serve as a source of reliable information that's hard to find online. Thank you for your time and attention. Kevin1776 (talk) 23:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment, watchlisting with an eye towards eventually supporting, you can install user:Evad37/duplinks-alt to check for duplicate links, which are a judgment call, as some can be justified. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • {u|SandyGeorgia}}, source review complete. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:40, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Gog the Mild headed home from cabin, can do review tomorrow, hard to review from hotspot on iPad. On my list, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 17 May 2021 (UTC). Oops, I see I already supported, will re-read tomorrow. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 17 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review pass per ACR. (t · c) buidhe 02:32, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comment[edit]

  • Citations: Several page ranges have "p." when they should have 'pp.'.
  • Sources: Not all books have publisher locations.
  • Infobox: All entries should start with an uppercase letter.
  • There are a lot of duplicate Wikilinks.

Gog the Mild (talk) 23:55, 6 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Very helpful, these have been fixed, thanks! Kevin1776 (talk) 02:01, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF[edit]

I'll take a look at this in the coming days. Might claim for WikiCup points. Hog Farm Talk 06:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because we've been having issues with a lot of stuff being transcluded onto individual FAC pages and then causing issues where not all of the FAC page will show, I'll be leaving my comments on the talk page of this FAC. Hog Farm Talk 04:18, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments have been posted. Hog Farm Talk 05:09, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support on WP:FACR 1a, 1b, 1d, 1e, 2a, 2b, 2c, 4, did not check the others. Hog Farm Talk 06:33, 14 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dumelow See talk page

  • Done! Thank you so much for this review. I've made adjustments to address these issues. I've added the IPA pronunciation for "Tecumtha" in the body of the article; this pronunciation may be far too uncommon now for the lede, perhaps. Kevin1776 (talk) 19:22, 25 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your changes look good, Support on prose. I've moved my comments to the talk page as there is an issue with the length of the FAC listings page - Dumelow (talk) 07:55, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Phonology of Shawnee name

  • /tɪˈkʌmθə/ looks suspiciously like English phonology, according to Shawnee language#Sounds the language does not have any of these vowel phonemes. (This academic paper agrees). In order to keep this a better source is needed. The Wikipedia article on Shawnee also states that stress in Shawnee is ultimate rather than penultimate as claimed here. (t · c) buidhe 04:38, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think you're right. We'll have to stick to the earlier version without the IPA. Kevin1776 (talk) 05:15, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

This has been open for over a month and has only picked up one general support. Unless there is considerably more indication that a consensus to promote is starting to form over the next two or three days, I am afraid that the nomination is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:55, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild, I will look in, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:59, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I thought and hoped that you might. Thanks Sandy. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leaning support, beautifully written, minor queries on talk. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:21, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support a fine piece of work that fills a previous hole in the internet! I suspect Victoriaearle may want to read it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:20, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Reiterate support after reading through new reviews below mine; it is important to stick with high quality sources, and avoid the myths and lesser quality sources, as Kevin1776 has done. Wikipedia does not lead; it follows. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:22, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kevin1776, I'm sorry that I didn't know earlier that this was at FAC. Not sure I can get to it in the time remaining but suggest leaving a note at Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America and more specifically asking Montanabw, who might be active. Also re the pronunciation of the names it might be useful to ask Maunus (if he's active) as he's a specialist. I've pinged both but it's okay to ask on their pages. Tell them I sent you. If I get some time, I'll try to get back here, but can't promise. Victoria (tk) 00:12, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no "s" sound in Shawnee, and the earliest recordings of his name give either tecumtha[2] or tecumthé. If our own page on Shawnee language is correct the pronunciation had to be [tekom'θe]. 09:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)·maunus · snunɐɯ·
This corroborates tekomthé as the best approximation.[3] Also it seems a source that could be incorporated.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:49, 11 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'm not sure if a newspaper column is the type of source we want to cite, but fortunately the pronunciation it gives (Tecumthé) is already cited in our article. Kevin1776 (talk) 08:42, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Tecumthé" is a problematic spelling, I think it should be complemented with a phonetic representation as [tekom'θe]. C is a ambiguous consonant with no geneally agreed upon pronunciation, and the vowel u is wrong since there is no u sound in Shawnee either. So in phonetic rendering it must be tekomthé (In english the u is often used to represent short o). I also think the Shawnee name should appear in the definition sentence - since this must be considered his real name. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:27, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I trust your knowledge on the ipa rendering, I just don't know how to cite it without straying into original research. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:12, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can we use this source (already cited in the article) and have Maunus render the IPA, or does the IPA need a source? Victoria (tk) 20:21, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We generally do not require sources for IPA renderings, only for the pronunciations that they render, requiring for the transcription itself would leave most articles without them.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:20, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Additional comments by Maunus[edit]

  • I would encourage that in articles about topics related to indigenous peoples, one make an effort to include the voices and perspectives of the relevant communities, even if that sometimes means citing sources that are not academically published. Sticking strictly to established ideas of "reliable sources" unfortunately sometimes means, excluding those who have the most intiomate knowledge because they don't have access to academic venus of publication. I would certainly try to find ways to include contemporary Shawnee views of Tecumseh in the article. The legacy section for example does not say anything about how Shawnee people today see him, or how theyv have been affected by his actions. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • An article by the current chief of the Shawnee Tribe, Ben Barnes, is cited in the article, but I agree more on his legacy among Shawnees today would be good. Your suggestion about altering the definition of "reliable sources" is a Wikipedia policy decision beyond the scope of what we can do here, I believe. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not talking about altering the definition in policy, but about how that definition can be applied in articles about different topics. There is nothing in policy that says a testimony in Indian Country Today is not a reliable source per definition.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:20, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • One source of Shawnee views of Tecumseh, might be this book. Especially the first chapter after the introduction deals with the conflict internally in the Shawnee tribe around time of Tecumseh's war- focusing on two Shawnee leaders who fought on the American side against Tecumseh - Captain Lewis and Black Hoof.
    • That book is cited in the article. There's not a lot about Tecumseh in that book, since it focuses on Shawnees who did not follow his path. BTW I've cited that chapter you mention extensively in my draft article on Captain Lewis here. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Great.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • And here is an eye witness account of Tecumseh's death[4].
    • There are many such accounts, of varying reliability. Scholars have examined them all in depth. Is there something about this primary source that caught your eye? Kevin1776 (talk) 09:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Only that it was recently made available on that website. If there is a lot of discussion about the sources and circumstances regarding his death, then I think the article should reflect that.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • And an article about the debastes about who killed him: Simmons, D. A. (2012). " Thus Fell Tecumseh": The 1813 Struggle for the Northwest Territory, and the Mystery Surrounding Who Killed Tecumseh, Revealed through the Personal Accounts of the Participants by Frank E. Kuron. Michigan Historical Review, 38(1), 161-162.
  • And here is a book that can be used to flesh out the account of the events at Vincennes[5].
  • And here is an article that tells of how Tecumseh has been used differently by Indigenous and non-indigenous canadians in telling their relations with the British Empire.Brownlie, J. (2017). " Our fathers fought for the British": Racial Discourses and Indigenous Allies in Upper Canada. Histoire sociale/Social history, 50(102), 259-284.
  • Here is another by Brownlie on Tecumseh's legacy and commemorations:Brownlie, Robin Jarvis. "COMMEMORATING TECUMSEH." Canadian Issues/Thèmes Canadiens (2012)
  • And Gordon Sayre has a chapter on Tecumseh in his "The Indian Chief as Tragic Hero: Native Resistance and the Literatures of America, from Moctezuma to Tecumseh. Sayre mentions that in the biography of Benjamin Drake there are some materials from an account by Stephen Ruddell, who lived as a prisoner with the Shawnee and knew Tecumseh as he was growing up - he mentions that he disliked the practice of torturing prisoners. This might be something to include. ·maunus · .snunɐɯ· 18:16, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • The modern biographies of Tecumseh draw extensively on Drake's materials and Ruddell's testimony. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Good. I think the article might want to mention Ruddell as a source of information about Tecumseh then.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ruddell was just one of many informants. Others include Anthony Shane, John Johnston, John Richardson, and a host of others. We can't mention them all. Ruddell and a couple others will likely be mentioned in the spin-off article Family of Tecumseh at some point, but I don't think we need to name-check him here. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:21, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is an article on the New Madrid earthquake's that discusses how they aided him n securing support in Alabama - apparently suggesting he might have known about the area's history of earthquake (judging from the abstract). Hough, Susan Elizabeth, and Roger G. Bilham. "Tecumseh’s Legacy: The Enduring Enigma of the New Madrid Earthquakes." In After the Earth Quakes. Oxford University Press.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 18:28, 13 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I concur with Montanabw that it would be beneficial to try to give a better idea of what SHawnee politics was like, than one gets by just saying he was a "chief" - I think footnote 4 should be in the actual text, perhaps with some citations. Also the fact that a "chief" had no coecive power and dependened entirely on whether people chose to follow their lead, would perhaps be relevant to emphasize a bit more even. Lakomäki describes this for war leaders (he does not say war "chief" does he?), and how you can demand being recognized as war leader but that doesn't mean anyone will actually consider you that. The Shawnee terms for peace/clan leader and war leader are Hokima and 'Neenawtooma respectively, which should probably also be in the article.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:26, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, btw, Lakomäki uses the term "war chief" often. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

comments by Montanabw[edit]

  • I’ll leave a notice at WP Indigenous people of NA.
  • But as it sits, the first thing that leapt out at me was overuse of the word “chief.” It pops up 21times. That’s the white man’s word and should be minimized in its use (i.e. mostly if used direct quotes from historic documents, etc.). The exception is if the nation themselves has officially adopted the term “chief” as a formal title or honorific. This needs to be examined. Usually the word “leader” is a better word, and particularly watch out for overuse of “chief” with other people mentioned in passing.
  • I wouldn’t fret too much on the pronunciation issue, I’d use both the standard way the name is spelled and pronounced by mainstream historians with IPA and ALSO put in the traditional transliteration with as close as possible sourced actual pronunciation of how he may have said his own name, i.e. “Tecumseh (IPA), in Shawnee Tekomthé (pronunciation) [citation]...”
  • I share the perspective of Maunus that relying too much on academic sources, particularly older ones, is fraught. Absent tribal views, too much academic content is prone to inaccurately portray native perspective and promote colonialism. Seeking content from present-day official sources from the Shawnee tribes, tribal colleges, and so on is wise.

Ping me at my talkpage if you want me to take another run. I’m not on WP a ton, but I’ve got my settings so TP messages shoot me an email Montanabw(talk) 02:20, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that Ben "that's Chief to you" Barnes, current chief of the Shawnee Tribe (who's cited in the article), and Glenna Wallace, current chief of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe (author of "Chiefs of the Eastern Shawnee Tribe") might be surprised to learn from Wikipedia that they have "white man's" titles. Kevin1776 (talk) 08:30, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Z1720 - pass[edit]

Spot checks not done. Version reviewed

  • After reviewing the authors and publishers, I believe these are high-quality sources.
  • The hyphens in the ISBNs on the listed sources are formatted differently: sometimes there are hyphens, sometimes only one hyphen, sometimes many. Please standardize.
  • The Cheeseekau's war chief status and year of his death are mentioned in the lede but not in the body.
  • "Shawnee Chief Blue Jacket's armed struggle against further American encroachment" is in the lede. While the battle and defeat are mentioned in the body, Blue Jacket's leadership/ownership of the conflict is not.
  • Infobox says he was born in Chillicothe, but the article says it was near Chillicothe.
  • Sugden (1986) has a JSTOR link. Since other JSTOR journal articles have a link in the title, I suggest linking this, too.
  • Why are alternate editions of Sugden (1997) and Sugden (1986) provided? This is not done with other sources.
  • Yagelski is available on JSTOR here: [6] I suggest adding it to the reference.

Let me know if you have any questions. Z1720 (talk) 00:22, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good deal, I'll get to these and other comments this weekend. Thanks! Kevin1776 (talk) 06:14, 30 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for these comments. I believe they have all (finally) been addressed. Kevin1776 (talk) 09:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed. I will pass this source review. Z1720 (talk) 23:38, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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