Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Samus Aran/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 00:30, 16 August 2009 [1].

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Samus Aran

Nominator(s): Gary King (talk) 03:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Featured article candidates/Samus Aran/archive1

This is the silent, female protagonist of the Metroid series of video games. I've been working on this article on and off since January and I think I've taken it as far as I can. Gary King (talk) 03:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments: Great work. Could 'Characteristics' be changed to 'Background and characteristics' or similar? Only to me, it doesn't begin to really discuss her characeristics until the last paragraph.

Alt text: Is everyone going to be familiar with a 'powered exoskeleton'? Could a bit more detail be included (bulky shoulders?)? The last image alt text needs to be altered to show that it is a low-detail, pixelated video game screenshot of a woman in a bikini, else it might as well be referring to the girls of Dead or Alive: Extreme 2! MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 08:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay I renamed the section to "Fictional biography" since it really just encompasses everything that we know about her fictional life. I've reworded the alts. Gary King (talk) 15:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Final comment: Alt text is much improved. One more thing: the last sentence of the lead seems slightly too long and misrepresenting, I could only find one reviewer who supported the curiosity connection. A suggestion for rewording: "A reviewer noted that part of people's connection with Samus is her curiosity for the unknown and the rewards she receives when she indulges it."

Okay done Gary King (talk) 16:21, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Support: As per my comments being addressed and it being an excellent article on an important subject for video gaming. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 20:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

• Limited support (postponed for now) - I say that because I have no opinion on the images and others will need to discuss those. As for the article - 1. I am confused by the dangling "including Samus" in Development. It seems out of place. It seems like it could be removed in general. 2. Things like "Samus's Morph Ball ability" wont be understood by those unfamiliar with the game. It might need a few words to explain what exactly it is. Try "Samus is capable of turning into a ball which allows her to collapse into a sphere to travel through tight areas. Calling it a "Morph Ball ability", developers conceived of it because it required less effort to animate than...." Not the best, but yeah. 3. "Ridley Scott's Alien" - "Ridley Scott's film, Alien". 4. It might be better to show which games revealed what details in the fictional biography. That would just make it seem more of a development than some recreated whole looking back. That would be the difference between in-universe and encyclopedic (first paragraph and a half is the only portion that really needs this, the rest of the section does do this already). But I am confused as to this section and the appearances section. They might want to be merged together (under one heading without any real changes). I don't see any real problems beyond that, and nothing that is major. It would be nice for you to get a few free images, but yeah. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

  All done except for the last point (#4). A lot of those points are not from any of the games; some are from manuals, comics, stories published by Nintendo, etc. I see the Fictional biography section as talking about Samus very generally, while the Appearances section says what she does in each game, chronologically. I think the two give very separate pieces of information about Samus. Gary King (talk) 23:19, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

  Are the manuals retroactive? Are there any errors between the two? I would hate to have a variation. You could preface that paragraph with saying that "according to the most recent version of the story, ..." or something similar. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:38, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

  I don't believe that Samus's background is contradicted in any official publications about her. The only place that I know that portrays Samus differently from canon are the comic books, but they aren't published by Nintendo. Gary King (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

  That is good to know. I remember with some game pages that there are all sorts of fights about what is "canon" and not. Rather annoying stuff. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support (I could even co-nominate, edited quite a bit) good and comprehensive enough, considering how hard it is to find some sources. One step closer to a Metroid FT! igordebraga ≠ 03:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
• Support as every last bit of information has been drained out of the Internet - writing articles about fictional characters is like squeezing blood from a stone. I'm not sure if forgoing the official art of Zero Suit Samus is a good idea, though, as the article doesn't showcase Samus' actual character design - I'm sure if Master Chief's helmet came off, there would be some kind of visual to show how he looked.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 05:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Question: are we using Samus' or Samus's? I'm not bothered either way, but it should be consistent throughout the article. -sesuPRIME 12:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Samus's since Samus is singular; I believe that's the rule. As for Zero Suit Samus's sketch, yeah that was a good image, but I don't know how we can justify using that fair use image unless we had some critical commentary on her appearance without her suit (we have plenty about her WITH her suit) or on the design of her body. Maybe if we had a source that said she was blonde, and that she had a particular type of haircut, etc.? Gary King (talk) 15:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You already have an image of a Zero Suit Samus cosplayer, so if you don't have any commentary on her appearance, you can't really justify the inclusion of THAT image either. You can't just put it in there for no reason other than the fact that the person allowed its usage.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:56, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

But, yeah you can. Gary King (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The relevant guidance on Commons is Commons:Commons:Image casebook#Costumes and cosplay. Commons hasn't come to a consensus. My opinion on the matter of cosplay in articles is that, regardless of the free/not free status of the image it's already far enough removed from the subject that it isn't a good representation of the character. Nifboy (talk) 01:24, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Hm okay, I'll remove the image for now as it isn't vital to the article in the first place. Ideally I'd like to find a free photo of one of the people who have worked on Samus's character. Gary King (talk) 03:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Using a costumed person as a substitute for fair use seems like an abuse of the policy. Not to mention that, without a comparison of the official design, the reader has no reference.--_{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:15, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

It is not the only rule. There is a long tradition of using one s for words like Socrates' where the final s is voiced to sound more like z, which would make Socrates's hard to pronounce. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:45, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support, per comments from peer reviews. Vantine84 (talk) 02:53, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
• Comment: I do not believe that the following is encyclopedic: "In a poll on IGN, 73.8% of 70,000 voters believed that Samus would win in a fight against Master Chief, the main protagonist of the Halo series.[14] Visitors also voted in favor of Samus against both Lara Croft of the Tomb Raider series,[15] and Solid Snake of the Metal Gear series.[16] In a reader-submitted scenario appearing in Game Informer's Video Game Deathmatch series, Samus successfully kills Mega Man to claim a bounty.[17] Samus also appeared in multiple GameFAQs Character Battle contests, winning the Character Battle V in 2006.[18]" Sure, it's sourced, but is this really worthwhile information? When writing a Wikipedia article, a historical perspective should be taken. The above is not historically relevant by any stretch; it's fan fiction, used by popular sites to generate traffic. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 05:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

  Okay removed Gary King (talk) 18:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support for Cr. 1a. Nice work; interesting content. Tony (talk) 16:14, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
• Comments from Wrestlinglover
  • I will start tomorrow, possibly. I usually intend to do removes, but forget to or just never get around to it. I have been wanting to read this article.--WillC 09:42, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

• Needs image and sources review: did all of the supporters check sourcing? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:24, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

On sources, I went through and found this immediately (1-5 are on the 1st source, 6-11 are on the 2nd source):

1. Wiki - "The style for the original Metroid game was designed to be a cross between the side-scrolling gameplay of the Super Mario games and the exploration and puzzle-solving aspects of the The Legend of Zelda series, with inspiration from science fiction."

1. Source - "The style for the original Metroid game was designed to be a cross between the side-scrolling gameplay of the Super Mario games and the exploration and puzzle-solving aspects of the The Legend of Zelda series, with inspiration from science fiction."

2. Second use of first source to verify that she left the Galatic Police "due to her grief following the death of her commander, Adam Malkovich" is missing this information.

3. The first source used to verify this cannot verify this - 'since her "bounty hunting" helps the galaxy get rid of unsavory elements such as the mysterious lifeforms known as Metroids...'

4. Wiki - "limited number of missiles"

4. Source - "limited number of missiles"

5. Wiki - A. "When the Varia Suit is destroyed, Samus dons the less protective Zero Suit." B. "Also in the Metroid Prime series, the eponymous Metroid Prime creature fuses with the remnants of Samus's Phazon Suit to become Dark Samus"

5. Source - A. "On occasion, the Varia Suit is destroyed and Samus is forced to fight in the sleeker but far less protective Zero Suit." B. "Metroid Prime fuses with the remnants of Samus' Power Suit to become Dark Samus. "

6. Wiki - "and the producer for Metroid, Gunpei Yokoi, took advantage of this shortcut."

6. Source - "and Yokoi's team took full advantage of their very clever shortcut."

7. The source cannot be used to directly verify this statement "which is used in the games to save progress and restore health and ammunition"

8. Wiki - "Samus typically works alone. She has never spoken in any game with the exceptions of Super Smash Brothers Brawl and Metroid Other M"

8. Source contradiction - "Maybe that's why nobody's heard Samus speak a single word in over two decades of free-form pirate extermination."

9. Wiki - "she let slip some emotions while dealing with her artificially intelligent computer"

9. Source - "She let slip a few emotions while dealing with Adam"

10. The source cannot be used to directly verify this statement "where she battles the Ing, creatures that are able to possess other organisms." or "Samus is infected by Phazon and is slowly corrupted by the mutagen while she works to prevent it from spreading from planet to planet"

- Ottava Rima (talk) 23:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Image review - The two fair use images are appropriate, in my opinion. NW (Talk) 03:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, 1c. I am very concerned about the way sources have been used. After reading Ottava's example, I checked one more at random, from this source:
  • Wiki: "While playing Metroid Prime, he felt a connection with Samus after sharing her exploration of an alien world and the catastrophe it experienced.
  • Source: "My connection with this character comes in sharing her exploration of an alien world and the catastrophe it has experienced."

A disturbing pattern has emerged of slight paraphrasing right down to overt plagiarism. An audit of all the sources is needed. --Andy Walsh (talk) 04:11, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.