Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Neil Brooks/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:06, 16 June 2010 [1].

Neil Brooks[edit]

Neil Brooks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, not a cricketer. Neil Brooks was an Australia freestyle swimmer of the 1980s who was part of the victorious team in the 4x1 medley relay at the Moscow Olympics. A rebellious character, he was suspended for a physical altercation with a coach (leading to a team revolt), booted out of the Australian Institute of Sport for indiscipline, and finally retired in 1986 after being suspended for drinking 46 cans of beer in one session on the return flight from the 1986 Commonwealth Games. Later, he became a journalist and sports broadcaster, but was sacked after a few drunken incidents YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:08, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources issues

  • Ref 24: the publisher appears to be marksonsparks, not Celebrity Speakers per ref. 23.
  • Why are Celebrity Speakers and marksonsparks considered reliable? Each seems to be a plug advertising the services of Neil Brooks, and neither appears to have a neutral encyclopedic quality.

Otherwise all sources seem OK. Brianboulton (talk) 12:46, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed the first point. For the second point, I considered those two as his agents, so they are effectively self-published sources. I only used them under the provision of WP:SELFPUB, only including the raw fact that he was a newsreader and swimming broadcaster, and not the fluff that he is quality, versatile etc, so there should be no POV problem. The fact that he called Olympic swimming and football for Channel 7 is not disputed by anyone in Australia and I could just delete the source and leave the material unsourced as it is not "likely to be challenged", if that is determined to be more efficient. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that the information cited to these sources is factual rather than interpretative, and I won't pursue the point, but on principle I feel that if possible, sources like these should be avoided lest a general impression is given that WP relies on material like this for the substance of its articles. Brianboulton (talk) 08:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I understand. I have a strong aversion to websites generally and never use them in Vietnamese history articles, and only a minority in sport articles, generally for stats databases not analytical comment. I'll be on the loohout for stuff to replace it if it comes up YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tentative SupportComments - as I said, I'd be happier with a more comprehensive treatment, but if there's nothing else out there then it is impossible to improve. Also, an image would be great (I get the impression he'd give us one if we asked nicely) but again, if we don't have we don't have. I don't see any deal-breaker clangers prose wise but suspect other reviewers might find bits and pieces. beginning a read-through now. I'll jot notes below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Duff was virtually outside Western Australia. - I have no idea what this means here.
Added "unknown" YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Known for his rebellious nature - Brooks or the coach?
Brooks. Tweaked YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Beatty Park Pool - might be good to anchor this to a suburb it is located in.
Linked. Didn't know it was an international quality pool for the Comm Games, rather innocuous name YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • who had a reputation for being wild - mmmm, think I'd reword but not sure what to. "wild reputation" sounds a little better.
Tweaked YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The inaugural director Don Talbot, a former head coach of the Australians swimming team, expelled him for indiscipline - be good to know why exactly/what happened.
True..but Talbot wrote in his book that he can't remember anything specific except general disruptiveness/indiscipline YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's a shortcourse pool? (or a longcourse for that matter..) - can we link them somewhere?
Yeah YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • His family aren't mentioned much after the beginning. I don't get much of a feel about them or his relationships with them, so if anything can be added that'd be good, but if not don't worry.
True. There is no biography of the guy apart from a minibio in an Olympic compilation book. Thanks YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:00, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did see this on google books, but only a snippet view, and also this looks intriguing. If you can check the first one might be a little more on some relationships. Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:20, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, the first book is by a much-loathed spammer/promoter, so I wonder if it would be considered RS in any case with its self-aggrandisations, but the book doesn't seem to be stocked in any library in the whole state. The second is Nadine Neumann's autobiography and only has one mention of Brooks when he itnerviewed her after a race YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:45, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I thought Markson might have said something interesting but I suspect from the link that it wasn't much related to swimming so is (I suspect) of less encyclopedic value really. Okay....Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You want more on the swimming or the other stuff? Daniel (talk · contribs) emailed both Brooks and Mark Tonelli two years ago and didn't get a reply YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:42, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Aaroncrick TALK 10:37, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
* Comments — I've read through the article and looks very solid as always; however, I'll read through it again and jot things down.
    • "Shortly after, he switched to the tutelage of Kevin Duff, who coached him for the next fifteen years, and came third in the 50 m breaststroke at the State Age Championships just six weeks later." — Makes it sound like Duff came third.
    • You link England (a link I removed) but you fail to link Western Australia. I'm not sure a link to Western Australia is entirely necessary though.
    • "Brooks was known for his rebellious nature, and had a glowing assessment of his coach, opining that "He's not pushy like many other Australian coaches and he's not in the politics of Australian swimming." — Capital H?
It was a whole sentence, hence the caps YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "W'ithin a year, Brooks' physical growth began to catch up and he started to regain the dominant position." — You use up in the previous sentence, can you perhaps tweak?
    • And you've linked Canada, what's the go there?
Removed YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The inaugural Australian Short Course Championships in Launceston? Lol, you sure? Well, they must have been desperate!
True. Well since the scoreboard at the Adelaide Aquatic Centre crashed and cost Glen Housman his WR they haven't been back there either YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Brooks walked out of the camp to return to Perth to train under Duff." — Can you add a word, possibly thus to join with the previous sentence?
    • "The Australian Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser..." — Should there perhaps be a comma before Malcolm and after Fraser'?
It is allowed but not necessary YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, I know it's widely used, but a reference before an mdash is extremely annoying.
And legal too, but a s-colon works too YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Brooks dedicated his win to his mother, who had died from cancer the previous Christmas." — His win? I sorta of understand what you mean, but he was part of a team.
    • "He later felt that the victory had diminished his hunger for further success." — You'll probably disagree, but wouldn't adding however before he help with the flow of the sentence?
    • "Brooks suffered from a lack of motivation after the Olympics." — You're basically repeating what you've already said. You could perhaps merge with the previous sentence?
    • "He then won the 1981 Australian title in the 100 m freestyle in a time of 52.61 s without training, substantially slower that his personal best." — I get what you mean but the bit after training just doesn't flow.
    • "He enjoyed the less paternalistic treatment that the coaches accorded to their swimmers, saying that "In Australia, after a race they want to lock you in your room." — Again, why does in have a capital I?
Per above
    • "Brooks spoke out about the accommodation, leading officials to make improvements." — Perhaps clarify by saying he spoke out about the quality. I guess the bit after the comma basically spells it out, but it could mean the location, ect.
    • "He received as one month ban, effective after the conclusion of the Commonwealth Games." — Do you mean a?
Done the rest YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 02:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Brooks stood 200 cm and weighed 95 kg." — I don't get why this is randomly just wacked after talking about what sports he played after swimming. When was he 95 kg? Wouldn't it be better to merge it with the bit about his weight increase?
  • "He also fought a battle with obesity, after ballooning to 150 kg, but has now lost the weight and fought off his alcohol problems." Lost how much? Back down to 95kg or what? I highly doubt it. Aaroncrick TALK 08:23, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Done. It didn't say how much, but the last time there was an ACA ad fro his business dispute, it showed him looking normal YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 08:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Very interesting article. Thankyou YellowMonkey for being so quick to respond to my concerns. Aaroncrick TALK 09:22, 10 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—comprehensive article.--Grahame (talk) 02:05, 11 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Read through the article from start to finish, and for the most part it was a good read. There were a few copy-edit needs remaining, but I went through the article and took care of the things I saw, though I forgot that there were a couple of abbreviations (FINA and NCAA) that could use spelling out. Also, the "He has now lost substantial weight" sentence is time-sensitive as is and could use some re-wording, especially since the source is from 2007. Still, the article is of the standard I've come to expect. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:56, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Giants: "Brooks retired thereafter, moving to Nambour, Queensland and started a rock band called The Union. How come you changed started to starting? Aaroncrick TALK 04:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've always thought that in a situation like this, the elements should be both passive or active voice, not both, as with "moving" and "started". I didn't think they worked well together, so I changed one of them. I wasn't sure if a comma was meant to be after Queensland, but didn't think one was needed so I made the passive voice change instead. If you don't like the switch, go ahead and switch it back. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 14:31, 13 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure for FINA and NCAA YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:29, 15 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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