Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 08:03, 9 August 2008 [1].

Mangalore[edit]

Nominator(s): Kensplanet (talk)


I'm nominating this article for featured article because this article is already a GA. It has been peer-reviewed 3 times and copy-edited several times. Prose size is around 34 KB. I think it satisfies FA criteria, Kensplanet (talk) 06:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Oppose – Needs work on prose
  1. Unencyclopedic tone: "...some of its old world charm such..."; "prognosis of a prosperity in international trade looms", Mangalore is a multi-cultural and multi-lingual city that speaks four local languages
  2. Choppy phrases: The lead especially. The sentences do not flow.
  3. Style issues: AD > CE; wikify dates; India Today > italicise; transportation > transport (BEng)
  4. "The Government of India has identified Mangalore..." Has the GoI indentified or the Geological Survey of India. Distinction is necessary.
  5. Please check the elevation. For a port city, an average elevation of 100 m seems high. The figure more looks like the elevation of the airport. I googled the elevation, and 45 m is what is mostly turning up.
  6. In climate, it is mentioned that the temperature falls below 20 C. How much? Figures are needed. If possible, extreme values would help.
  7. "...gained a significant position..." sentence needs to be rephrased.
  8. What is Per-Humid (A) Zone? No wikilink of explanation provided. Not helpful to a reader.
  9. Too many unnecessary capitalisations: IT Sector > IT sector;, International Airport, Commercial radio, Million Metric Tonnes Per Annum
  10. "which is still in its infancy," redundant information. Infancy metric according to?
  11. What does "Mangalore also has access to Commercial radio providers such as WorldSpace, Sirius and XM." This information is unnecessary. It's nothing unique.
  12. "The city has still preserved much of its green cover compared with other Indian cities." -- reference
  13. Reduce the width of the panoramic image to 600px. The current width causes an annoying scrollbar for users with standard resolution (800x600).
  14. Lower the resolution of the image in the etymology section and right-align. The image pushes the title of the History section to the center.
  15. Rephrase: "The Albuquerque Tile Factory in Mangalore, is the largest tile factory in India, which manufactures the famous Mangalorean red roof tiles" to The Albuquerque Tile Factory is the largest red roof tile manufacturing factory in India.
  16. See alsos should come after a section not before.
  17. Some records show why the word some? Is it disputed?
  18. succeeded in defeating --> defeated
  19. In the 16th century, Mangalore received a huge influx of Goud Saraswat Brahmins and Roman Catholics from Goa. > such an event must have a reason. Portuguese Inquisition?
  20. "Rain measuring up"-- should be rainfall

=Nichalp «Talk»= 07:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I had consulted many copyeditors and had also given the article for many reviews. But still may be some prose issues are still present. I am sure there are no major issues regarding Style of References and reliability of sources. If there are, please let me know, KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 07:59, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see a problem with references as yet. I did check on a few when reviewing. Check the one on elevation though. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Done
Old Sentence: Mangalore still retains its old world charm such as red tile-roofed houses in spite of globalization pervading the city.
New Sentence: Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed houses in spite of globalization pervading the city.
Old Sentence: The late 20th century witnessed Mangalore develop as a business and commercial centre although Mangalore still retains some of its old world charm such as red tile-roofed buildings amidst coconut groves, and fishing boats silhouetted against the darkening skyline.
New Sentence: The late 20th century witnessed Mangalore develop as a business and commercial centre although Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed buildings amidst coconut groves, and fishing boats silhouetted against the darkening skyline.
Old Sentence: Mangalore is a multi-cultural and multi-lingual city that speaks four local languages Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, and Beary apart from Hindi, Urdu and English.
New Sentence: The city speaks four local languages Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, and Beary apart from Hindi, Urdu and English.
Old Sentence: The present day city bustles with activities in the upcoming IT sector and the prognosis of a prosperity in international trade looms.
New Sentence: The present day city bustles with activities in the upcoming IT sector. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 07:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pervading seems like a POV. Pervading has negative connotations, and globalization is not necessarily negative. "fishing boats sillouetted" is also more of something you find in a travel brochure. As for languages, you are making Mangalore anthromorphic. How about this: "Four languages are predominently spoken in Mangalore:"? =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done
Old Sentence: The city speaks four local languages Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, and Beary apart from Hindi, Urdu and English.
New Sentence: Four languages Tulu, Konkani, Kannada, and Beary are predominently spoken in Mangalore apart from Hindi, Urdu and English.
Well, I agree with you. In this sentence, Globalization currently has a negative gist. I have removed Globalization.
Old Sentence: Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed houses in spite of globalization pervading the city.
New Sentence: Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed houses.
Old Sentence: The late 20th century witnessed Mangalore develop as a business and commercial centre although Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed buildings amidst coconut groves, and fishing boats silhouetted against the darkening skyline.
New Sentence: The late 20th century witnessed Mangalore develop as a business and commercial centre although Mangalore still retains its medieval remnants such as red tile-roofed buildings. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2. Choppy phrases: The lead especially. The sentences do not flow.
We had carefully rationalized the LEAD. The First Para mentions extremely crucial details such as Location, etc..The Third Para is entirely dedicated to History. The 4th Para is dedicated to secondary details such as airports, culture, languages, etc..Are you trying to point at the second Para since that's the only Para where details are mixed. If it's not, then can you substantiate. Can you point at the sentences which do not flow. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 18:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3. I have moved the Page Transportation in Mangalore to Transport of Mangalore.
Another mode for local transportation is the autorickshaw.--->>> Another mode for local transport is the autorickshaw. HOPE, no US vs UK English issues now. Also italicized India Today.KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

4 Well the Government of India had published a vulnerability atlas in 2002 giving information on places which are vulnerable to earthquakes. The Reference incorporates data from this atlas. I couldn't find Geological Survey of India anywhere in the Reference. We are not sure whether the Geological Survey of India is involved here. However if Distinction is absolutely necessary, we can replace Government of India with Geological Survey of India. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the source. The source quotes two individuals who might not be considered as a "reliable source". You can change the reference to something else to exclude Union Government of India. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I have removed the Reference since the two individuals cannot be considered as a reliable source. I'll search for a reliable REF. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:03, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. A reliable Reference has been provided from the Geological Survey of India. If you check the seismic Map http://www.gsi.gov.in/images/zonation.gif then you'll observe that Mangalore falls in the yellow zone which is the Seismic III Zone. Hope issue has been resolved. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That seems fine. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

5. Premkudva is working on it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

6. Premkudva is working on it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

7 Done by Premkudava
Old Sentence: Thereafter, Mangalore gained a significant position in the state since it gave the erstwhile Mysore state the benefit of a coastline.
New Sentence: Mangalore remains a significant territory of Karnataka, providing the state with strategic access to the Arabian Sea coastline. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

8. There is no wikilink for Per-Humid (A) Zone. I coudn't find it anywhere. Best would be to create the article. Since giving explanation about the Zone on this article would be considered unnecessary details. Anyone interested in creating the article is very much welcomed. OR else, I'll do it later.KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

9. IT Sector --->> IT sector
International Airport --->> International airport
However Million Metric Tonnes Per Annum should remain since it has an acronym MMPTA. Even if you try googling on the name with Million metric tonnes per annum [2] still you will find Million Metric Tonnes Per Annum, KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its not a proper noun. See the google search results after the first three. The top most google search result is an acronym site. Such sites usually use title case. =Nichalp «Talk»= 08:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Either it should be Million Metric Tonnes Per Annum or million metric tonnes per annum. It should be either entirely in small or entirely in capital.KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:45, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it should be small letters only, the caps are due to the typical Indian habit of capitalising anything and everything.--PremKudvaTalk 11:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lower case for all =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done - Changed to lower case.--PremKudvaTalk 06:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

10: Done
Old Sentence: Mangalore is home to the Tulu Film Industry, which is still in its infancy, with only 31 films released to date and an average of about one film released each year.
New Sentence: Mangalore is home to the Tulu Film Industry, with 31 films released to date and an average of about one film released each year. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

11. You are right. Mangalore also has access to Commercial radio providers such as WorldSpace, Sirius and XM. has been removed, Kensplanet (talk) 08:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

12: Removed The city has still preserved much of its green cover compared with other Indian cities.. No reliable references were found stating this fact. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions Kensplanet (talk) 09:29, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

13. Done The width of the panoramic image is now 600px. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

14 . Done.
The Image of the Etymology section has been lowered from 200px to 150px. The Infobox also doesn't interfere with the Image now. The image also doesn't push the title of the History section to the center now. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

15. Rephrased the Sentence.
Old Sentence: The Albuquerque Tile Factory in Mangalore, is the largest tile factory in India, which manufactures the famous Mangalorean red roof tiles.
New Sentence: The Albuquerque Tile Factory is the largest red roof tile manufacturing factory in India. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:41, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

16. Done. Tulu Nadu (Culture) is after the section. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

17. No, its not disputed. 100% Sure. In addition to the newspaper article http://www.thehindu.com/2007/10/29/stories/2007102958510300.htm , the Mangalore city Corporation Website also states that Mangalore was connected with the Southern Railway in 1907. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

18: Done
Old Sentence: In 1526, the Portuguese viceroy Lopo de Sampaio succeeded in defeating the Bangara king and his allies and the trade passed out of Muslim hands to the Portuguese.
New Sentence: In 1526, the Portuguese viceroy Lopo de Sampaio defeated the Bangara king and his allies and the trade passed out of Muslim hands to the Portuguese. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

19. Done.
Old Sentence: In the 16th century, Mangalore received a huge influx of Goud Saraswat Brahmins and Roman Catholics from Goa
New Sentence: In the 16th century, a huge influx of Goud Saraswat Brahmins and Roman Catholics from Goa migrated to Mangalore due to the Portuguese-Maratha Wars and the Goa Inquisition. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the word "huge". Redundant wording. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Removed the word huge. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

20. Done
Old Sentence: Rains measuring up to 4,000 millimetres (157 in) falls during the period from June to September. The rains subside in September, with the occasional rainfall in October.
New Sentence: Rainfall up to 4,000 millimetres (157 in) falls during the period from June to September. The rains subside in September, with the occasional rainfall in October. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

4 The elevation is high since the city is having a lot of hills, the airport elevation so noted is because it too is located on a hill, it does have its low areas, so we will have to locate a reference for the elevation highs and lows. Am on it.--PremKudvaTalk 11:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming that Mangalore is a coastal town starting at sea level. For an average elevation of 100 m, the city should be very hilly. Udipi just north, at 39 metres, and 5 km from the coast, has a more tempered elevation of 39 metres. =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Manglore is very hilly as compared to Udipi, but I have to locate references for the actual altitude mentioned in the article. On it.--PremKudvaTalk 06:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

6 Trying to locate proper reference for climate ups and downs.--PremKudvaTalk 11:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

12 The only reference avialable for green cover is the panoramic image;-) Sorry unable to locate a reference for now.--PremKudvaTalk 11:19, 19 July 2008 (UTC) }}[reply]

Comments

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 21:03, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise links checked out with the link checker, sources look okay. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Removed the Link. Also added http://www.hindu.com/mp/2004/06/10/stories/2004061000340300.htm instead. A reliable newspaper article. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Ealdgyth's Comments

  • This is the case with the first footnote, the publisher would be the newindpress.com or the name of the newspaper publisher, not Express Network Private Ltd, which manages the site.
    Done. Replaced Express Network Private Ltd with newindpress.com. That's the name of the Publisher. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same sort of deal with the second footnote, the publisher would be the Ministry of Finance or the Central Board of Excise and Customs.
    Done. The Publisher is now Central Board of Excise & Customs. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • And the same deal with footnote 6 (States Reogranization Act) where the publisher is the Commonwealth Legal Information Institute.
    Done. The Publisher is now Commonwealth Legal Information Institute. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:06, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please alphabetize your References/bibliography to make finding short form references easier.
    References are now alphabetized. Can you please cross-check it? KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.mangalorecity.gov.in/tourism.html (This is a marginal source, given it doesn't name its sources)
    Well the site is reliable. Infact, it is the most reliable site which we can ever have. Anyway, I understand your concerns. I have removed that site. Instead of that, I have taken details from a Document published by the Mangalore City Corporation. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://viswamurugu.com/tuluweb1.html also looks self-published
    The research is published by Tulu Research Institute for Esoteric Physics, a well reputed and reliable organization in Mangalore. The research has been conducted by Mr. Viswamurugu. Mr. Viswamurugu is a member of the Tulu Research Institute for Esoteric Physics. Although it is found at Viswamurug's Web site http://viswamurugu.com/ ,that doesn't make it unreliable. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 17:04, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have removed the site since it is very difficult to prove whether the site is reliable. Replaced with (http://www.thehindu.com/mp/2008/06/21/stories/2008062151860400.htm), a reliable link. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 10:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've found reputed Newspapers mentioning that Weatherbase is an authoritative and reliable source. Some newspapers mentioning this are The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Seattle Times etc..(http://www.weatherbase.com/about/press.php3?refer=).
Hope the site is reliable. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, sorry to be a pain, but a "brag" page from the website itself isn't the best source for information like this. Shouldn't be that hard to look up in those newspapers. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think this should work (an article from New York Times)
(http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B02EFD6153FF933A25755C0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2)

I think this should prove that Weatherbase is a reputed site. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well I have found that the United States Geological Survey recommends Falling Rain Genomics for general coordinates of places. (http://tin.er.usgs.gov/metadata/ofr-2006-1135.faq.html)
If the US Geological Survey recommends it, we can be sure that the site is reliable. Do check it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Works. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cosmas_11_book11.htm (current ref 17) is an online reprint of a book originally published in 1897. Please list it as a book, not a webpage. And might I suggest something more recent might be a better source?
    Done. Mentioned it as a Book. But finding a recent source is not possible. It's very very difficult to find Reliable References for such things. Mangalore is also not a very major city of India. Hence, References are limited. Hope, no reliability problem arises just because the book was published in 1897. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 18:00, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, It's not deadlinked. Please recheck it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the link's not working. It has been removed. The sentence The Yakshagana is a night-long dance and drama performance practiced in Mangalore with great fanfare already has 2 Refs. So removing 1 ref won't harm its reliability. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:42, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • The Chand book/reference needs to give the publisher etc just as with a book.
    Done. Actually, the publisher was Chand. I have modified it. Do check it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 10:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, you need to do this on several of the book references, adding in the publisher, etc. for the references.
    Done. All Books have publisher now. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because of the length of this page, with most responses not threaded, the remaining sourcing questions moved to Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1#Unresolved sourcing questions. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:19, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments

The last paragraph in the lead can be done away with. The sentences seem to be of different thoughts with no connection. Except Mangalore tiles, the rest should be removed. Take for example the mention of banks. Is there something unique about banking in Mangalore. Swiss Banks, Cayman Islands, Grameen Bank all are something unique to the region and are interlinked with the city character. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Removed a few sentences from the Lead. Retained Languages (Since I don't think there is any other city which speaks four local langauges), coconut palms (Whenever you observe Mangalore in brochures etc.. you'll always find coconut palms. It's an indentity of M'lore) Mangalore tiles (unique and well-known)
I think these should be retained. But however you think anything is unnecessary, then do tell us. Or you can try your own hand at copyediting the last paragraph of the lead. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 18:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments

  • In "Etymology", "In 1526 AD, the Portuguese took possession of Mangalore, thus corrupting the word Mangaluru to its present form Mangalore". But it has not been mentioned when the name was Mangaluru. The preceding sentences say that the name was Managalapuram and Manjarur, but nothing is said about Mangaluru. Yes, in the next paragraph, we get to know the name Mangaluru. However, to maintain flow, IMO, that should be mentioned prior to the Portuguese change of name.
  • Done. Updated the text to maintain the flow. Thanks - KNM Talk 16:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "History". says that the city was merged into Mysore sate. But when did it become a part of Karnataka?
  • "Geography". The topography of the city ranges from plain to undulating, with four hilly regions natural valleys within the city Probably some words are missing in this sentence?

19. The sentence night time temperatures fall below 20 °C replaced with night time temperatures drop to about 19 °C--PremKudvaTalk 06:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • History". says that the city was merged into Mysore sate. But when did it become a part of Karnataka?
    Mysore state is Karnataka state. Mysore state was just renamed to Karnataka state in 1973. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: In the history section, the image of The Sultan Battery overlaps some of the text, making it difficult to read on my computer. There are also examples of the text being squeezed between two images, which is frowned upon by Mos Images policy.-- Seahamlass 14:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll fix it soon. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issue resolved by Premkudva and Arejay. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All issues by Dwaipayanc resolved by Premkudva, KNM, and Arejay. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The prose still needs a lot of work. I think the article can benefit from another round of WP:PR. I've listed some issues that I noticed as I read through the first few sections of the article:

  • "Its port handles 75% of India's coffee exports and the bulk of its cashew nuts": Sentence is ambiguous...bulk of whose cashew nuts? India's? Mangalore's? The port's? The way the sentence is structured, it's not clear what the intention is.
  • Etymology and Mangaladevi. Is this a myth or a historical fact? If it's a legend, it needs to be noted as such. Also "They could not proceed further" – I don't quite get what that means. Maybe clarify? Also is Nath a "cult" or a "sect"? I feel the word "cult" carries a negative connotation. The Nath article uses the neutral word "tradition"...maybe we can use this too.
  • Mangaluru does not literally translate into "the city of the Goddess Mangaladevi" in Kannada. Literal would mean a word-for-word translation, which Mangaluru is not. You could perhaps say something like, "..in Kannada, the city is referred to as Mangaluru, a reference to Mangaladevi (the suffix ūru means town or city in Kannada)".
  • This article appears to draw a logical relationship b/w the Portuguese taking control of the city and the corruption of its name to "Mangalore". I think this needs to be clarified.
  • Mythological context in the History section is very choppy.
  • Text should be simplified a bit further. Too much use of past-perfect tense ("Vasco Da Gama had landed..", "the Kadambas had ruled...", "Mangalore had been...".

I will review the rest of the article this evening, but I do feel that there are enough issues in the prose to warrant a more qualitative PR at this point. Thanks AreJay (talk) 21:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I appreciate your review. But I think there are a few sections which need to be washed. We are sure we'll do it during the FAC. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Premkudva has already done a good work. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1. Done
Old Sentence: Its port handles 75% of India's coffee exports and the bulk of its cashew nuts
New Sentence: Its port handles 75% of India's coffee exports and bulk of the nation's cashew nuts. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 11:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2. Done
Mentioned According to a legend. It is a legend according to the Ref.
Mentioned Nath tradition but retained Cult in the following sentence since it ultimately converges to tradition.
Removed They could not proceed further as these details are unnecessary. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3. Done
Old Sentence: In Kannada language, the city is known as Mangaluru, which literally means the city of Goddess Mangaladevi.
New Sentence: In Kannada, the city is referred as Mangaḷūru, a reference to Mangaladevi (the suffix ūru means town or city in Kannada) KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

4. Done
The Portuguese were the first to use Mangalore and not the British.
Old Sentences: In 1526 AD, the Portuguese took possession of Mangalore, thus corrupting the word Mangaḷūru to its present form Mangalore
New Sentences: In 1526 AD, the Portuguese took possession of Mangalore. During their regime, Mangalore (a corruption of Mangaḷūru), stuck as the official appellation. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 13:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

5. Mythology has been brilliantly copyedited by Premkudva. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions Kensplanet (talk) 13:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

6. Issues resolved by Premkudva. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Additional concerns
  • Images: Some sections have too many images and are sometimes not used to compliment subject matter. For example, I'm not sure how "Light House Hill" shows "demographics" of the city. The locality is not mentioned until a minor reference in the Utilities section. Similarly Jyothi Talkies is not mentioned in the article anywhere. While the images look ok on a 768x1024 screen resolution, they appear to bleed into other sections of the article in other resolutions. Getting rid of a couple of non-essential images would be good.
  • The reference [3] points to no information about Deeva Raaja Odeya or Mangaluru Raajya, as has been cited in the article. Additionally, the spellings appear to be unconventional. I would have thought that they would have been spelled "Deva Raja Odeya" and "Mangaluru Rajya", resp.
  • History: The history section appears to be too long. Detailed mythological history should be condensed. Non-essential sentences (such as the back-and-forth changing of guard from Tippu to the British) should be removed and/or summarized . Also there is little to no information about Mangalore's history after 1956, apart from a brief mention about growth of IT and commerce.
  • As mentioned in the talk page, sports and eduction should not be in the same section, since they are unrelated.
  • Transport: are there any issues relating to transport and infrastructure a la Bangalore? If so, they should be mentioned in this section (or alternatively, in the Civic administration section)
  • What about statistics on the level of crime in the city? The National Crime Records Bureau may have some data on this.
  • Some statistical information, though not necessary, would go a long way in making this article a great read. Here are some links from the Directorate of Economic Statistics of Karnataka [4]. Some info from here (I saw some data about Mangalore Port traffic, Infrastructural info (MESCOM, etc) and Mangalore Municipality size and revenue data.
  • The reference [5] seems to time out.

Thanks AreJay (talk) 22:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • 1. 2 Images removed. One from the Education section (National Institute of Technolgy) and one from the Demographics section (Light House Hill). Also mentioned details of Jyoth talkies. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2. Entire details of inscriptions removed. I think these are added from tourism sites and blogs. Hence, they are unreliable. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3 History. Agree, its a bit lenghty. Here are some modificatons..
    Removed (Roman writer Arien called Mangalore Mandegora. A 7th century copper inscription referred to Mangalore as Mangalapura. )
    These cannot be proved by reliable sites though unreliable sites do have them. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed (Mythological great sages Kanva, Vyasa, Vasistha and Vishvamitra meditated in this region, according to legend.)..These sentences cannot be proved by the reference. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed (The sage appointed Bhanu Vikrama king of the region, who further deputised his brother, Udayavarma, to rule the territory between the Payaswini river in the south and Gokarna in the north.)
Since there are no wikilinks to Bhanu Vikrama and Udayavarma, I think these are extra details. I think Mythology is short and fine now. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 13:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed (Further, in the Mahabharata, the Pandavas, who lived in Banavasi during their exile, visited Sarapady, a village near Mangalore.)
They visited Sarapady which is not in Mangalore. Let's stick to Mangalore only. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed During Tippu's regime, the city was constantly caught in the crossfires of Anglo–Mysore Wars.. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Removed The British annexed Mangalore again in 1791, only to surrender it to Tippu in 1794. Also added some details of 1950+ history. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the details on Sports should be enough now. Please have a glance. If not, then inform us. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 5. There are no major problems or issues relating to transport and infrastructure. There may be a few, but are very very minor and I don't think they deserve any mention. Traffic congestion is not observed in Mangalore. The Port is excellent and traffic is very smooth there. Infrastructure is quite good atleast for a city not exceeding .5 million. If you figure out some, then do inform us. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:23, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 6. Well, the National Crime Records Bureau has absolutely no details on the crime rate of Mangalore. If you can find it here or anywhere else, then do inform us. Anyway, I have added Crime details in the Demographics section. Do check it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 13:45, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 7. The site was excellent. Mangalore Port traffic, Infrastructural info (MESCOM, etc) and Mangalore Municipality size and revenue data have been added. Here are the data which I have added.
  • During 2000-01, Mangalore generated a revenue of Rs. 33.47 crore (US$ 7.77 million). (Economy)
  • The traffic at this port was 122 thousand tonnes during the years 2003-04. (Economy)
  • As of 2001, the Mangalore municipality covers an area of 73.71 km² (28.46 sq mi). (Civic administration)
    Your copyedits will surely help here. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:10, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 8: Well these are temporary problems. They may be due to web page maintenance etc..If you encounter any deadlinks, then do mention them. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:02, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

  • Conditional support: Great work by Premkudva and Kensplanet! I conditionally support this article for FA, pending the resolution of the outstanding issues of other reviewers. I'll take another crack at copyediting the article either this evening or sometime tomorrow. AreJay (talk) 02:03, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Review 2

Almost there, but take care of the following:

  • City experiences a --> has a
  • in that a myriad of --> with several
Replaced--PremKudvaTalk 10:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • red clay --> red-clay
  • According to legend -- > what legend? local?
  • How did the British rule Mangalore the first time in 1757?
  • Why is the Aranian Sea termed as "strategically important"?
  • medieval is not a preferred term used by Indian historians.
Would old or ancient be a better alternative?--PremKudvaTalk 11:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The current framing of the sentence that red roof tiles are "medieval" is odd. Red roof tiles are still common in many parts of India. The sentence reads as if (i) the use of the tiles today is an abberation conventional roofings (ii) some interesting piece of unique and localized historical trivia. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is KREC?
Replaced with Suratkal, KREC is NITK. But the beach there is known as Suratkal.--PremKudvaTalk 10:53, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per-Humid zone needs to be explained
  • recorded was 93% in the month of July --> is 93%...
  • Why does Mangalore receive more precipitation than other urban centres? Is it due to convectional rainfall due to the presense of the Western Ghats?
  • ...and timber[49]. --> the full stop should come before the reference
  • Albuquerque Tile Factory --> would make an interesting article
  • In culture, the first image should come after {{main}}
  • is practiced in Mangalore with great --> is held
  • which is located --> located
  • Why is "practiced" so commonly used? Use synonymns, and terms such as worshipped, or celebrated.
  • "air cable" ambigious --> change air to broadcast. Infact that sentence does not reall add much weight. Maybe by adding the term "also provides"?
  • Canara Tv could do with a redlink, it looks like a typo
  • Grammar: "In addition, the city also"--> Either use in "addition", or "also"; they mean the same
  • Number of air passengers needs a reference
  • across the Netravati River at Thumbe --> How far is Thumbe, the distance would be helpful
  • What is the highest point in Mangalore
  • GSM and Code division multiple access (CDMA) mobile services are available in the city --> Cell phone operators include both GSM...
  • Merge sister city with culture. A single bullet is meaningless

=Nichalp «Talk»= 07:35, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Nichalp's Review 2

Reply
  1. Replied about the use of medevial above.
  2. I'm still not happy about how the British gained Mangalore. Was it ceded, was it wrested away? Was there some treaty.
  3. Secondly, the linkings to the British are not correct. It should be linked to and noted as the British East India Company (Honourable East India Company).
  4. Climate: The Per humid thing is odd. The Koppen system on the other hand is reliable and wide spread. Modify the sentence to: Under the Köppen...Manglore..."Tropical/megathermal climates", Tropical Monsoon..."

=Nichalp «Talk»= 11:16, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply

  1. The red roof tile sentences have been modified in the best possible manner. Your copyedits are very much welcomed
  2. It was wrested out. I have mentioned it. Thanks
  3. All events before 1799 linked with the British East India Company and 1799+ with the British.
  4. Fixed Climate. Under the Köppen climate classification, Manglore belongs to the Tropical/megathermal zone
  5. The highest point in M'lore is not available. I searched a lot. If you can find it, then do mention it in the article. Hope the article is still comprehensive. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 18:15, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

}}

Final issue
  • I am still interested in how the British (East India co) managed to get a foothold in Mangalore in 1767. Did they win it in battle during the First Anglo-Mysore War?
  • I'll support once the referencing issues are taken care of. =Nichalp «Talk»= 09:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to final issue
  • Well, that's a long story. Mangalore didn't play a major role in the Ist Anglo mysore war. Actually, the Deewan of Mysore had declared Hyder Ali as a rebel for some reason. The Deewans stance made many Malabar chiefs and Mangalore chiefs doubt the policies of Hyder. They themselves surrendered themselves to the British when Hyder was busy in warfare with someone. The Ist Anglo mysore war is not very much involved here. Perhaps, this will give you all the details (http://books.google.com/books?id=GYpCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA114&dq=british+captured+mangalore+in+1799&lr=&as_brr=3#PPA114,M1)

Mentioning these sentences is not possible there. But surely the First Anglo-Mysore War is not at all involved. If you can modify it,then please do so KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 19:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All sourcing issues have been resolved. Please check Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


RELIABILITY ISSUES

  • I checked the Frequently Asked Questions of that site. The below mentioned Question is from that page.
    What are the data sources of the World Gazetteer?
    If possible, official data sources are used. In many cases however no official figures are available. In that case, secondary sources such as year books, encyclopediae, atlases etc. are used. I have also received data from other stats lovers.
    Well that means World Gazetteer incorporates data from municipal corporations, books, encyclopediae, atlases etc. which I think all are considered as reliable sources. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They may consult those sources (they probably do, actually) but without either knowing more about who is behind them or them citing the sources on the pages, it's hard to know where they got the information. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'll have to contact Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities for that. We had added World Gazetter since it was mentioned in the guidelines for Indian City articles (Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian cities#Demographics) KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I have a got a page from the Princeton University which recommends World Gazetteer for population data. (http://www.princeton.edu/~shawatw/interne1.html)
Since, the University recommends it, I think it is reliable. Do check it. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 10:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Closer. Just a couple of notes on this ... the page was last updated in 1998. And who is the author? Is it a graduate student? Undergraduate student? Professor? Who the author is will have some bearing on how much importance would be attached to it. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
According to (http://www.princeton.edu/~shawatw/resume.html) (Wangyal's resume), Tsering Wangyal Shawa is a professor. Looks quite experienced. I think this should have significant bearing on the notes. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 16:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to leave this one out for others to decide for themselves. Something on the web that hasn't been updates in 10 years is really really out of date in terms of the web. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved. All sourcing issues have been resolved. Please check Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:00, 5 August 2008.
Well I have an article from The Hindu, the National Newspaper of India (http://www.thehindu.com/thehindu/mp/2007/05/12/stories/2007051250850100.htm)
I think this should prove that the site is reliable. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 09:26, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm thinking this one is marginal. I'll leave it up for others to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't know what more should I do to convince you. An article from the newspaper surely means that the site is reputed. Newspapers won't publish details of any sites unless they are noteworthy and reliable. You seem to be convinced with the New York Times article on Weatherbase but not this article. In both cases, situations are absolutely similar. Can anyone find differences? KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 13:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The difference is in the tone of the articles. The NYT article discusses the fact that the site is a good spot to go for weather data, which is what you are using it to source. The Hindu article discusses more about the guy behind the web portal and doesn't discuss the accuracy of the site. It describes volunteers contributing to the website, but doesn't say anything about how accurate it is. I didn't say it wasn't a reliable site, but it hasn't shown that it is reliable either. If the Hindu article had said that the site was a great place to go for accurate information on Mangalore, then it'd prove the reliablity. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agree both the sites could be relied upon.--PremKudvaTalk 11:26, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved. All sourcing issues have been resolved. Please check Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:00, 5 August 2008.

UNRESOLVED ISSUES (Ealdgyth)

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~dludden/ is the page for either a professor or a student of the university. Probably a professor. It's not strictly speaking "published" by the University, as it's a personal website, looks like it hosts class materials. I'd prefer to see something about why this particular author is considered enough of an expert in globalization to rely on his work, but the source is borderline, and passes muster (barely) for the information sourced to it. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The homepage apparently belongs to David Ludden, a professor at Penn who specializes in comparative world and South Asian history. When I saw the link, my first suspicion was that this was a grad student's homepage. I'm more comfortable with the reference now that I know that it was written by a professor specializing in S. Asian history. However, the distinct lack of references in that article does somewhat concern me. AreJay (talk) 23:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm mainly concerned that it's not giving it's sources and it's author hasn't been shown to be considered to be an expert. I'm willing to leave this one out for other reviewers to decide on their own, though. I'd consider it borderline as a source. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved. All sourcing issues have been resolved. Please check Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:00, 5 August 2008.

As below, a "brag" page on the website itself isn't very useful for showing this. http://www.rediff.com/search/2001/jan/08hist.htm is a bit more help, but it doesn't show why we should trust someone that the review itself says isn't a subject matter expert and that doesn't give its sources. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, even books rely on data from Kamt's Potpourri. Check this book like Leadership Roles for Librarians By Herbert E. Cihak, American Association of Law Libraries, Joan S. (http://books.google.com/books?id=gnDwfbiRoCQC&pg=PA87&dq=Kamat%27s+Potpourri&lr=&as_brr=3&sig=ACfU3U2TFdS6zOgzLo5jw58m9HV6H9744w)
If Books rely on them, then I think the site has to be reliable. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They used it for a quotation. However, it's probably borderline. I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves also. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved. All sourcing issues have been resolved. Please check Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Mangalore/archive1. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:00, 5 August 2008.

UNRESOLVED ISSUES (Dwaipayan) *How about a city map, if available?--Dwaipayan (talk) 21:09, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great suggestion. But currently we don't have it. We'll put it there later. But I don't think we can make it now. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 14:34, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh that's fine! It is not at all mandatory. I'm striking this out :)--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:36, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article has come a very long ways at FAC, and progress is commendable, but it's not in promotable condition until someone goes through and does a thorough and basic copyedit. I've been keeping an eye on it, hoping its supporters and editors will notice and fix the issues I see throughout like:

The Ullal suburb of Mangalore produces hosiery and coir yarns.[1], while beedi rolling is an important source of revenue to many in the city.[2]

and the WP:LAYOUT issues. Can the nominators get some new eyes on the article to do some basic copyediting and look for these little glitches I'm seeing throughout? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing out. I'll carefully analyze the article again. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 5:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
I've been noticing things like that throughout, so a fresh set of eyes may help. Also, templates (like "further, detail and see also") do not go at the bottom of sections, they go at the top (see WP:LAYOUT). And navigational templates don't go in See also, they go at the bottom of the article. I'm a bit worried when no one points out things like this weeks into a review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can you think of any editor who can do this copyediting work immediately. All other major issues regarding prose and references have been resolved. Only these very minor issues are still present I think. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 15:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure someone will get to it now that I've pointed it out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
All the issues which you have mentioned have been resolved. I don't think there should be any more issues now. I have been going through the article again and again. If you want me to do something more, then please do tell me. KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 12:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note the article uses a deprecated citation method {{Harvard reference}}. Harvard reference has been replaced by {{citation}}, but citation shouldn't be missed with the cite xxx family (see WP:CITE), so the entire citation method in the article needs to be corrected. (Ealdgyth also pointed this out on July 20.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:45, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    There is WP:OVERLINKing throughout, samples, words like coffee, education, English, known to most English-speakers need not be linked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • {{Harvard reference}} has been replaced by {{citation}}.
  • citation hasn't been mixed with the cite xxx family. It's only in the References section, that {{citation}} has been used. Ealdgyth had also checked it and Ealdgyth was convinced and had striked the issue. You can check it now. All cite xxx templates have been replaced by citation templates. Hope there are no more referencing issues
  • I have removed unnecesary links and overlinking. I am sure you won't find any. But if you do find 1 or 2 issues, then do tell us or manually correct it yourself. :) KensplanetTalkE-mailContributions 08:21, 9 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference stbr was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference scan was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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