Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Luke Schenn/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:13, 19 June 2011 [1].

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Luke Schenn

Luke Schenn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Luke Schenn/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Luke Schenn/archive2

Nominator(s): Canada Hky (talk) 16:07, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm bringing Schenn's article back for another crack at FAC. He's currently suiting up for Canada at the World Championships, but I don't believe stability will be much of an issue. There were a few issues raised last time, but not a lot of input. I believe I have addressed the issues regarding images and sourcing from my last attempt. There has also been a copyedit done by an uninvolved editor (User:Diannaa) who did a much better job than I could have hoped to do. I appreciate any comments that are offered up. Canada Hky (talk) 16:07, 4 May 2011 (UTC) Addendum I am involved in the currently running Wikicup, but would prefer that no one feel beholden to offer reviews according to those timelines. Apologies to everyone involved for not adding this in sooner. Canada Hky (talk) 16:52, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Sources were checked at the last FAC; I don't see many major changes. Haven't done spotchecks yet. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:13, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Image, deadlink and copvio check Article makes good use of two properly licensed images. No deadlinks. Does the Maple Leafs website usually mirror Wikipedia and cite no attribution? No copyvios found, that one site most certainly appears to be a mirror.--NortyNort (Holla) 14:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

That looks like a mirror to me. I don't think it is the Leafs official site, which would be "shop.nhl.mapleleafs.com" or something very similar. I'll dig around it a little bit more later to confirm. Canada Hky (talk) 16:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

It looks like an unofficial site, I took this from the "About Us" page: "Consumers save up to 40% off the unit prices compared with that of official online retailing nhl jerseys store". There are several spelling mistakes (on player names), and the Leafs roster is not up to date. Canada Hky (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

• Comment – I gave my main review the first time this was at FAC, and don't have much to add. The only thing I can think of is that he set new career-highs in assists and points. Might be worthy of a mention. Also, I would advise that the article be updated right after the World Championships (or after Canada is eliminated), but that can be dealt with when that time comes. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:18, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

  Thanks for the comments. I have added the note about his career highs, nice catch. I have been keeping an eye on the WC. At the end of the tourney, I plan to update with his stats and Canada's results. He's kind of plodding along as he usually does, with one assist in five games, so there won't be much more than a sentence or two to add. There will also be some contract information this summer, but that can be dealt with as well when the time comes. Canada Hky (talk) 03:55, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Updated for Canada's unfortunately early exit from the WC. :( Canada Hky (talk) 21:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that. The only things I would recommend involving the update are citing Canada's finish and adding a PDF indicator to reference 28. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Got both of those things fixed up, thanks! Canada Hky (talk) 02:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support – Everything I've brought up in both FACs has been addressed and the article seems to be up to standards. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:08, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Comment This is probably just the nature of the beast, but it seems like his name is used excessively especially towards the end of the professional section. It starts to seem very repetitive could some pronouns bee used in order to break-up some of the monotony? --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 00:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I tried to smooth this out a bit. Let me know how successful you think I was. Canada Hky (talk) 18:24, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Support --Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 00:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Support Query - How much is he earning? Could be worth a mention. Utinsh (talk) 19:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Added the info about his salary and the value of potential bonuses. Canada Hky (talk) 21:13, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Looks fine now. Article looks as comprehensive as it can right now. Utinsh (talk) 21:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Oppose: I appreciate a lot of work has gone into this article, but I'm afraid I don't think it's quite up to standard yet. There are several issues with prose in particular. There are several examples of redundancy (some below) and a repetitive sentence structure which makes it hard work to read. I also have issues with comprehensiveness as there does not seem to be much detail about his achievements, or how well he performed particularly in his early career. I read to the end of the Junior section and skimmed the rest. I also picked up one or two jargon issues which need explaining or linking for the general reader. Another point, which I have raised before, but would not oppose on outright: I wonder how comprehensive an article can be about a 21 year old player at the beginning of his career; would it not be better to wait? The above comment that it is as comprehensive as it can be right now suggests that it may need much more work later. These are the main issues I have found, mainly prose related, but they are samples only: — Sarastro — continues after insertion below

• "Schenn was named to the league's Second All-Star Team": Not sure how you can be named to a team, rather than on or in.
  • "Named to" is pretty common for hockey's post-season all-star teams. I've never actually heard on or in for a hockey player. Possibly a regional (Canadian) thing?
    • My argument is that this article should not reflect "hockey-speak", but it should be encyclopaedic. Hence, I think "named to" is too colloquial. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
      • "Named to" isn't really "hockey-speak". Stephen Harper named MPs "to" his cabinet, according to most natinal news sources, so I will stick with Canadian usage of the term for an appointment. Canada Hky (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
        • I'm still not entirely convinced, but I won't insist. --Sarastro1 (talk) 10:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• "He was a highly-touted prospect…": What does highly-touted mean in this context? I suspect "highly regarded" may work better.
  • Agreed, changed.
• "he was selected in the first round (fifth overall) by the Maple Leafs…" I continue to have a very rudimentary understanding of the draft system, but two points arise: that a link to "drafting" rather than the specific 2008 draft, which does not really explain the system to the casual reader, may be preferable; and I think "first round" may be sufficient detail for the lead, and a little more elegant. The information about him being the fifth overall pick can wait.
  • Worked in a link to the NHL Entry Draft page
    • I'm not sure this helps, and the other points still apply. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
      • The details about draft position are important. There is a significant difference between an early first rounder and a late first rounder. Canada Hky (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
        • I'll take your word for it and strike, but I'd like a link that explains how the drafting works if at all possible. --Sarastro1 (talk) 10:59, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• While "defensive defenceman" may be the correct term, it is a horrible expression!
  • Yes, well hockey has its quirks. The other option is "Stay at home defenceman" which seems a bit more jargon-y. I can switch it out, but the redundancy might be preferable to the jargon.
    • On the contrary, I think "Stay at home defenceman" sounds a little better, and no more jargony than the current phrase. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Sure, I can change that. Canada Hky (talk) 22:48, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
• "He has served as captain and alternate captain at several levels of play.": The repetition of captain and the imprecise "several levels of play" make this an uncomfortable sentence.
  • Removed this mention from the lead, and reworked captaincy mentions in text.
• "He does charity work during the season by helping military families attend Maple Leafs home games.": Does this qualify as a charity? If so, which one? How does he help? Does he drive them? Pay for them? The sentence implies multiple charities; perhaps "He supports XXX charity by…"
  • Clarified that it is his own charity, please let me know if this remains unclear.
• I think the information about his upbringing would be better placed here at the beginning of the article, as my first questions were about where he came from, etc. But I can understand why you placed it where you did.
  • I am of two minds. I typically place it at the end, because he isn't particularly notable for his family life, but rather his hockey career. There isn't usually enough material for more than one or two paragraphs, so splitting it up chronologically is awkward.
• "Schenn played minor hockey in his hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. His first minor hockey team was the Saskatoon Red Wings, where he was coached by his father, Jeff." Perhaps these sentences could be merged: "Schenn first played minor hockey for the Saskatoon Red Wings in his hometown of Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, where he was coached by his father Jeff."
  • Fixed that up a bit.
• AAA midget hockey: AAA needs linking, and midget hockey should be linked or explained.
  • Wikilinked to league page, information about level of play and age are in that article.
• "Schenn made his on-ice debut for the Rockets during the 2005–06 WHL season." Would an off-ice debut be possible?
  • Not an off-ice debut per se, but he joined the team during the playoffs of the previous season as an observer, and then joined as a player the following season. I'll try to clear it up a bit.
• "often paired with current Buffalo Sabres defenceman Tyler Myers": Don't use current (WP:DATED).
  • Adjusted.
• Junior: It seems odd to begin with his debut and then go back to prior to his debut. Also, apart from his awards, nothing is given about his success, the effectiveness of his play or any judgements on how well he did. Reading this section, he could have been a genius or a mediocre player. For example, why did his ranking improve from seventh to fifth? "Some scouts saw him as a mix between Dion Phaneuf and Adam Foote" is meaningless, even when following the links. Presumably this says something about his ability or style, but the general reader is none-the-wiser.
  • Scouting services don't typically release their exact reasoning for moving a player in the rankings. As an observer, there are two reasons - either he got better, or the guys ahead of him got worse. There are a lot of variables involved, and I wouldn't like to speculate as to why they made the move.
  • Also, I reorganized so the junior section starts with his off-ice experience at the Memorial Cup.
  • It is somewhat limited by the sources as always. Anything I add to clarify this will be original research. I don't think its meaningless to follow the wikilinks and find out that Schenn was compared to a defenceman who has an Olympic gold medal, two Stanley Cups and a World Championship, and one who was nominated for the NHL's top defenceman award in his third season.
    • I don't think we should expect the reader to do all the work; if the article mentions his comparison to these players, it should say something about them. It doesn't need much, just one or two words. --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:46, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
      • Added brief mentions of the accomplishments for the guys he was compared to. Canada Hky (talk) 22:50, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• Scanning the rest of the article, I notice several potentially POV words such as "impressive" and "strong". Presumably these are from a source and therefore should be attributed in text: i.e. X says Schenn was impressive.
  • Removed a few mentions that were further from the direct source, left in the ones that were more directly sourced.
• Sentence structure is repetitive throughout and not really at FA standard for prose: lots of sentences begin "Schenn", "He", "His", or a subject. Many others begin with a simple prepositional phrase ("On March 14,", "While playing with the Contacts", "In/During XXXX…") --Sarastro1 (talk) 23:05, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Started addressing some of these issues, will be working on them further. Canada Hky (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
  • Still working on a few of the above raised issues, and scrubbing through the text for similar mentions in the sections you didn't go through in detail - thanks very much for the review!
  • To the point about comprehensiveness "right now", was more a comment about its completeness at this point rather than expecting large changes in the future. I understand the concerns (and I realize that you said you wouldn't oppose solely on this grounds, it's just something I will address), I just don't think its likely a subject that will undergo major changes in the future. Its a much more difficult task to get the article to the stage where future updates just require a sentence or two and a source. He'll sign a contract this summer. He might be named an alternate captain on a permanent basis, but there is nothing that will change on a day-to-day or even week-to-week basis. Canada Hky (talk) 16:18, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

More comments: The article still has a few issues with prose, comprehensiveness and jargon. These are a few more examples, but there are others and it may benefit from a copy-edit by an uninvolved editor who is unfamiliar with hockey. --Sarastro1 (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

• My comments on prose above still stand; there are lots of subject-verb sentences or adverb-subject-verb sentences. This needs looking at and it is not FAC standard.
• Apart from brief comments on the 2009-10 season, there are no comments on his performances. Are there any match reports which assess his play? What about end of season reports? His performances cannot just be judged on his awards. For me, this is a major sticking point. As a reader, I want to know how he played and how successful he was.
  • Unfortunately, there isn't a lot of material that hasn't been included. He started out the season with high expectations, played poorly and picked it up at the end of the season. Canada Hky (talk) 02:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
• There is quite a lot of redundant prose. Some examples:
• "He roomed with Shea Weber as the team wanted Schenn to learn about the role he was expected to play with the team.": Redundancy and awkwardness; maybe "He roomed with Shea Weber to learn about his prospective role in the team."
• "Rockets general manager Bruce Hamilton said, "That was the most important thing we ever did in getting him [Schenn] to understand from Weber what he's got to do."" Is there any point to this quote as this simply rephrases the previous sentence?
  • Fixed up both of these, removed the quote. Canada Hky (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• "ranked fifth among North American skaters by the NHL Central Scouting Bureau heading into the draft": "Into the draft" redundant.
  • Removed. Canada Hky (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)
• "with a base salary of $850,000 per season. His contract included bonus clauses that could raise the value as high as $1.25 million per season." Wordy: could this be cut to one sentence such as "an annual salary of $850,000 with the potential to reach $1.25 million with [performance?] bonuses."
  • Tweaked. Canada Hky (talk) 02:58, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
• Jargon examples: "national midget hockey champions", "alternate captain", "entry-level contract", "team roster",
• "At the 2008 Entry Draft, the Toronto Maple Leafs, traded up to the fifth overall slot (originally held by the New York Islanders) to select Schenn." While some jargon is inevitable in an article such as this, I believe it should be kept minimal and this phrase is almost impossible for a non-specialist to understand. Surely it could be phrased for the general reader?
  • I think this has been improve, please let me know what you think.Canada Hky (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

--Sarastro1 (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

• I'd like to thank you for the time and effort you have put into reviewing the article. Still working on a few kinks, but I am making progress. Canada Hky (talk) 23:01, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

remarks

• you may like to trim down on the excessive details. it's just a hockey player. there're things in the world that are actually important, many things. one example in case you may be confused is curing diseases.rm2dance (talk)

• Woah, rm2 - the first sentence is constructive, and you should have stopped there. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:49, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

• Not to be glib, but that's actually my day job. Canada Hky (talk) 16:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Has Sarastro been back to look at the prose in the last week? Would like to see some opinions since the rewrite was finished. Karanacs (talk) 01:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Comment: I wasn't sure if the copy-edit was finished or not, so I hadn't had a look. A quick look now shows improvements, but I'm afraid the same issues persist. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• Prose: Still has a repetitive sentence structure: for example, 5 out of 8 sentences in first paragraph of "Professional" begin with "Schenn" or "He"; this is replicated throughout the article and the only variation seems to be simple prepositional phrases at the beginning of sentences.
  • Working on this, professional section should be improved. Canada Hky (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• Choppy sentences: Throughout the text, sentences do not flow and seem disjointed. For example, first paragraph of "Junior": the sentences are about joining the team, his roommate, his debut, his position as alternate captain, named as part of the Russia-Canada challenge, top prospects team, All star line up, etc. None of these sentences seem to flow together and just seem to be a collection of disparate facts.
  • I understand the concern, but its as close to a chronological account of his junior career that can be constructed from the available sources. Canada Hky (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• Redundancy: Still numerous examples throughout text; two at random: "He roomed with Shea Weber as the team wanted him to learn about his future [prospective?] role on the team" and "After his rookie season, expectations were high heading into the 2009–10 NHL season."
  • Those are embarrassing. Thanks for pointing them out. Canada Hky (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• Slightly awkward phrasing: For example "He played for Canada twice at the Under-18 level. At the 2006 Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament, he was a member of the gold-medal-winning club, and in 2007 he participated in the 2007 IIHF World U18 Championships, where Canada finished fourth": Could be improved to "He played for Canada twice at Under-18 level: in 2006 at the Ivan Hlinka Memorial Tournament, where his team won gold, and in 2007 at the IIHF World U18 Championships, where Canada finished fourth."
  • Tweaked. Canada Hky (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• Comprehensiveness: While appreciating the above comment about performances, I do not think the current level of detail is comprehensive enough. I know FAs on similar sports use newspaper reports to fill in gaps, but I don't know if these are available. But the article needs something more; it does not even discuss the number of games he played in each season.
  • I'll add the info about games played, and do another scrub for sources, but I think I have pretty much run the well dry, aside from newspaper reports mentioning that he played, without offering any info on his performance. Canada Hky (talk) 13:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
• Jargon seems better. I think it could still be made more comprehensible, but not a major sticking point for me. However, I would prefer another non-hockey reviewer to give an opinion on this one as well.
  • I have tried to improve this, notably found some better links for midget hockey early in the article. Canada Hky (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
• I maintain that an independent copy-edit is necessary, and I notice this has not been done yet. This would probably solve most of the problems. Normally, I would offer to have a go myself, but I don't really have the time right now. --Sarastro1 (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I'll take a further look at the other issues, but there has been an independent copy-edit done on the article, by User:Diannaa, as stated in the nom. Canada Hky (talk) 13:58, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: I've had another look, but while the examples I cited above have been fixed, I would stress that these were only examples, and the issues persist throughout the article. I'm sorry to be such a pain about this but I still don't believe the prose is near FAC standard. The same goes for comprehensiveness. I appreciate that the sources may not be there, but it could be possible that there are not enough sources to make this an FA yet. Again, I'm really sorry for I appreciate the amount of work that has gone into this and I hate being a pain about it. But I would re-iterate that another copy-edit is in order. There may have been a copy-edit before the nomination, but as issues persist (in my view, anyway!) there really should be another one. I personally think it is impossible to have too many copy-edits, especially for a sports article where the prose can become repetitive. --Sarastro1 (talk) 11:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Support by Cryptic C62 · Talk:

• "The Los Angeles Kings selected his younger brother Brayden fifth overall in the 2009 NHL Entry Draft." This sentence should not be in the lead. The lead exists for the sole purpose of summarizing those pieces of information which are most important for understanding the topic, not for introducing irrelevant trivia.
  • Respectfully - it's not irrelevant trivia. Brothers in the NHL are not so common that it isn't worthy of mention. In order for the lead to accurately summarize Luke Schenn, it needs to mention that his brother is also an NHLer. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
    • If you insist on keeping this fact in the lead, I strongly advise that you rephrase it in such a way to maintain focus on Luke rather than Brayden. One possibility: "Luke is the older brother of Brayden Schenn, a player for the Manchester Monarchs." This phrasing, which can certainly be adjusted as needed, makes it clear that the sentence is to clarify the existence of a relationship between the two Schenns rather than arbitrarily touting the merits of the younger. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:42, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
      • I will try to change this to focus more on Luke. Thanks for the suggestion. Canada Hky (talk) 03:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
      • I think the wording now is better, and more in keeping with what you were suggesting, please let me know what you think. Canada Hky (talk) 03:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
• "He roomed with Shea Weber as the team wanted him to learn about his future role. After this experience, Schenn debuted with the Rockets during the 2005–06 WHL season, and was the team's Rookie of the Year." I don't see how the first sentence is relevant. Worse, the second sentence implies that the rooming situation was one of the factors that eventually led to the RotY award. This implication is not supported by the source given (Ref 5: Player Profile Luke Schenn)
  • The first sentence is not irrelevant, it is widely mentioned in hockey coverage as one of the reasons for his development. I have tweaked the second sentence. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• Caption: "Schenn during his rookie season" I suggest specifying that this is referring to his rookie season in the NHL. It is difficult to read the "Toronto Maple Leafs" on his jersey.
  • Tweaked, I had figured the placement in the professional section was enough, but it could be made clearer. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• "The NHL named Schenn to the 2008–09 All-Rookie Team on June 18, 2009, along with fellow 2008 draftee Drew Doughty." Was Drew Doughty a teammate? If not, the mention is completely irrelevant.
  • Teammate at the junior level internationally, and two 18 year old rookies being the top 2 rookie d-men in the league is an oddity. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
    • ...and how exactly is the reader supposed to infer this connection? This is the only mention of Doughty's name in the article. The current sentence implies that there is something special about two 2008 draftees appearing on the 08–09 All-Rookie Team, which is obviously silly, since all members of that team would be 2008 draftees by default. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 02:42, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
      • No, NHL rookies very rarely make an impact the year immediately following their draft. Schenn & Doughty were the only 2008 draftees on the ART that year. Typically, they will play at least one more year of junior or college hockey, and then spend some time in the AHL or in a professional league in their home country. The year before Doughty and Schenn were named ART d-men right after their draft, the defensive pairing was Tobias Enstrom, who was 24, and Tom Gilbert, who was 26. Canada Hky (talk) 03:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
        • Ah. I don't follow sports. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 03:05, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
• "Maple Leafs general manager Brian Burke feels Schenn is a key part of the team's long-term future" No, we don't know how Burke feels. We only know what he has said to have felt. I suggest replacing "feels" with "has said that" or "has maintained that".
  • Tweaked. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
• "He was recognized for his leadership when he was briefly named an alternate captain after Kaberle was traded." This statement, taken from Playing style, presents the same information as the following statement, taken from Professional: "When Kaberle was traded to the Boston Bruins in February 2011, Schenn was briefly named an alternate captain in his place". This redundant redundancy should be expurgated.
  • Tweaked slightly, to make the prose not quite so redundant. A factual mention that he was named alternate captain is needed in the recounting of the 2010-11 season, and the playing style section needs an example of his recognition for leadership. Canada Hky (talk) 03:27, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
  • I should have said this earlier, but thank you for your comments, and the time you have taken to read the article and offer up suggestions. I appreciate the help. Canada Hky (talk) 03:44, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Six weeks in and prose issues are still apparent (per Sarastro1, I had a look); please secure an independent copyedit. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:10, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.