Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kathleen Ferrier/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:29, 27 June 2011 [1].

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Kathleen Ferrier

Kathleen Ferrier (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Kathleen Ferrier/archive1

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 23:11, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

This is the sad story of a classical singer who, for a few years after the Second World War, became one of the best-known and best-loved performers in Britain and beyond. She died of cancer at the peak of her success; at the time, cancer was never openly discussed, and her death was a stunning shock to a public quite unaware of her illness. It's her centenary next year (22 April), and I'd love to see the article on the front page then. It has been well reviewed at PR, and I think it is ready. Brianboulton (talk) 23:11, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• Why use the parenthetical reference format for the first note, in-text for the third, and footnotes for the rest?

• I have now standardised citations in the footnotes

• Ref 13: page(s)?

• I obtained this article from the Newsbank agency which, unfortunately, does not always give page numbers. However, Tim has found a direct link to Newsbank, so the article is now linked online - though still lacking page numbers.

• Why wikilink The Guardian in ref 104 and not 84 or 94? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

• I think the numbers are, respectively, 106, 86 and 96. The first is on the Guardian website, the second are from Newsbank, though in these cases the page numbers were supplied.

Thanks for the review. Brianboulton (talk) 21:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support – I took part in the peer review and had very few points – all minor – to raise then; they were all addressed at the time. I am not expert enough to comment on images, but otherwise the article, in my opinion, meets every FA criterion. A fine and touching piece. Tim riley (talk) 06:18, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your help at PR (and re Newsbank) and for your support here. Your initial help in running down some valuable sources was invaluable. Brianboulton (talk) 21:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. Like Tim, I participated in the peer review, but there was very little to say; the article is excellent. The one outstanding point I can see is the dash inconsistency between quotes and the article proper; it's not important but it may be neater to standardise them. Apterygial ^talk 13:22, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

As with Tim, your PR contribution was very helpful, and thanks for your support here. On the question of standardising dashes, those within the quotes were presented in their original form, while my own practice is always to use mdashes. I accept that it is tidier to have a uniform format, and have now adopted mdashes throughout (until someone else objects, that is). Brianboulton (talk) 21:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support I was also a peer reviewer and my concerns were answered at that time, such as they were. Fine article, sad story, reminds me of Gertrude Lawrence, though she was far more of an actress and less of a singer. Sigh.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:11, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Again, thanks for the detailed PR comments and for the support here. Brianboulton (talk) 21:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support I can't see anything on this article that needs improving, all in all a pretty flawless article. Coolug (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support—I am pleased to support this very nice article. My concerns were addressed. Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 18:41, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

A very nice work with only a few trifling concerns:

• Any reason why there isn't an infobox? Compare, for example, with Anna Netrebko and Enrico Caruso. See also Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes).
• I believe the term 'flat' is colloquial English and it may not be familiar to readers from other countries.
• "...she underwent further radiation therapy..." The article didn't mention when she first underwent radiation therapy.

Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 21:45, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your review and support. I have followed the policy of Wikipedia's Classical Music Project, and also the Opera Project, which is not to use infoboxes in biographical articles of composers or performers. The two examples that you give are probably in the minority; certainly none of the featured composer/performer biographies have infoboxes. There is of course no requirement that any article should have one. On your other two points, I have changed "flat" to "apartment" and have deleted "further". Brianboulton (talk) 00:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay thank you. That first image of KF does show some minor scanning artifacts (appearing as a slight light and dark pattern in the background). Hopefully a better quality image will be available some day. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Support—This is a superbly written article and in my opinion meets or excedes every FA requirement. I can not find a single thing to complain about. Additionally, it should be noted that this will be the first article about an opera singer to achieve FA class status on the English wiki. Wonderful work as usual Brian.4meter4 (talk) 03:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

A very generous comment. Thanks. Brianboulton (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Support. I've read through the article and made a few small improvements. I have two minor nits to pick:

• "Through the summer her general concerts schedule was interspersed with hospital visits" - somehow "general concerts schedule" sounds odd - I'd have said "her concert schedule"
• "Her only other engagement in January was a recorded BBC recital in which she sang works by three living English composers" - this also reads rather oddly and might be better as "was a BBC recital recording" or "was a recital recorded by [or "for"?] the BBC"

Excellent article otherwise. --GuillaumeTell 10:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks you for your support and comments. I have altered per your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 17:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Media looks great, copyright-wise, and the one non-free image has a very strong rationale, as well as being a well chosen image to use. File:Bruno-Walter-1910.jpg and File:Southwark.cathedral.nave.london.arp.jpg would benefit from Template:Information and you may want to consider the larger image of the opera scene, but that's your call. J Milburn (talk) 11:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I have added templates to the two image pages you mention, and switched to the slightly better Orpheus image. Brianboulton (talk) 14:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

TCO comment, lack of sound.. I think we need a sound in here (I don't think we are adequately presenting the subject to a reader, unless we have one). I would put in a fair use recording at max length that the police will let you. Also, in the external links, if you can please add a link that takes us to some of her music (or perhaps caption a little clearer), if any of it is up at other somewhat legit sites.TCO (talk) 19:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree with TCO. Also, the external links need to have annotation saying where you are directing readers to. The first one, for example, you have to hover or click to find out that it is a h2g2 page hosted by the BBC. That should be noted in brackets after the link, so people know what the websites are. The second one is self-explanatory. The third one is soundfoundation.com, so you'd put that or whatever the organisation is behind that website. Carcharoth (talk) 01:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

On the sound question, this cd universe site lets you listen to short samples of Ferrier's voice. If this is classed as a "legit" site it can be added to external links, with appropriate explanation. Adding fair use soundclips to the article may take a little longer (I have never learned how to do this), and may not add much beyond the cd-universe clips, since we are restricted to 30 seconds or 10% of the piece's length, whichever is shorter. As most Ferrier pieces are songs lasting between 2 and 3 minutes, that means clips of around 12–18 seconds. On the other point, I will improve the formats of the existing external links, as requested. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

(Later): I've reformatted the ext links. The KFS one has been deleted because it is now a source in the main article. I'm not sure the Posthuma one is really worth keeping; it was there before I expanded the article and I've left it in place. Brianboulton (talk) 14:52, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, well, it was the KFS one that was most useful really. I don't understand the seemingly blanket tendency to remove external links when used as a source, especially ones that are used briefly as a source for some minor point. If an external link is informative and useful for the reader, and contains additional information that is not covered by the article, then requiring the reader to ferret around in the sources for it is making them jump through hoops. The h2g2 link is a nice one. On another point, there is absolutely no need to have retrieval dates on external links. I saw that recently on another article and I have no idea where that meme has come from. On a brief look, I suspect there are other sites that could be added to the external links section, but you might want to list some on the article talk page and decide on that at leisure - it doesn't really seem to be something covered in the featured article criteria, so no need to bog things down here. Carcharoth (talk) 03:09, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I have added the link to CD Universe to provide access to some very brief soundclips. That i all I can do for the present. Other editors may of course add other external links, if they serve some obviously useful purpose. Brianboulton (talk) 13:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Support - an excellent read, no hesitation in supporting. Some minor comments below. Carcharoth (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

• Very nice article - three points:
  • (1) Was the presentation of the CBE at the palace posthumous to her family, or did she collect it before she died?
    • It was collected on her behalf and given to her in hospital; I have added this information to the text. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
  • (2) Shouldn't the planned Centenary Year be mentioned?
    • Well. they haven't announced details of the centenary events yet. I have added a short holding sentence that can be expanded, probably after the events have taken place. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
  • (3) An impressive list of sources. Are there others, or is this comprehensive?

Carcharoth (talk) 01:49, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• On the final point, the principal sources for all Ferrier material are Winifred's book, Kathleen's letters and diaries, and the Cardus-edited memorial book. I have used all these, together with other biographical sketches and press and journal articles, web articles etc. Other sources do exist; there is a French-language biography from 1990 which I have not consulted, and a short 1955 biography by C. Rigby which I have not used since in my view it adds nothing. I have no doubts on the comprehensive issue. Brianboulton (talk) 10:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for expanding on that. I've now read the whole article, and it really is a joy to read. It flows well and I came away from the article feeling the whole story had been summarised really well. Just four further comments, which I'll add below. Carcharoth (talk) 02:44, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

• Four more points:
  • (4) The transatlantic travel was by ship (judging by the years, phrases such as 'embark', and Southampton being one of the departure points). Is it possible to identify the ships she travelled on, and the ports she travelled between, on those three trips? I'm asking partly because I think it is important to bring out the difference in travel arrangements between today and that era, and also because we likely have articles on the ships.
  • (5) When you describe her father's death, can you give his age, as it sounds like he was old and his death was not unexpected. Also, When I read in a biography about the death of one of the parents, my immediate question is what happened to the other one? Did Ferrier predecease her mother, or had her mother died at some point? While on the subject of family, we hear about her sister, but there was another sibling - is it possible to mention that one as well?
  • (6) Money. I found myself wondering whether Ferrier became (or could have become) wealthy from her singing career. Should there be some indication in the article of whether she became more wealthy than she was (and how well off she was to start with, if at all), and how does the income of a classical music recording artist work? Would her income have been from royalties, or were there advances on that? What happened to the royalties after her death - did they go to the fund or were they inherited by (say) her sister and other relatives, or did she make other arrangements in her will (she presumably had time to make out a will). i.e. Something covering her income while alive, and her will while ill, and her estate after she died, is probably needed.
  • (7) The 'Recordings' section feels tacked on the end like an appendix. The natural end to the article is the 'Assessment and legacy' section. I'm presuming that the location of the section is some standard at the relevant WikiProject, but I'm wondering if there is a more graceful way to handle an appendix section like that.

Carcharoth (talk) 02:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for the support and the care you have taken to make constructive comments (even if I can't agree with all of them). With regard to your later points: (4) It is a matter of judgement as to how much peripheral detail should be in the article, and I don't honestly see the need for further details here. (5) I have added the date of Alice Ferrier's death. William was 83 when he died and I've added that, too. As to the other sibling, other than noting that he was a brother, which I have now done, there is no more to be said as he played no part in Kathleen's story. (6) I think the article is quite clear about her initial financial circumstances. As to her later wealth, it is on record that she left £15,000 at her death, and I have included this together with a footnote relating it to current values, but none of the rest of the information you ask about has been published. (7) Sorry, I don't believe that the positioning of the brief Recordings section is "ungraceful" or inappropriate. It's where you normally find such information in any biographical work (see Leonard's and Winifred's biographies, for example), and in many Wikipedia articles. I accept, however, that personal preferences may differ. Brianboulton (talk) 00:52, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for making those additions. My point about the 'Recordings' section was that it comes across more as a section than an appendix (it is interesting to see how the works of authors, singers, actors and directors are handled in various biography articles across Wikipedia - many just link to the list article and don't bother with any prose in the section, thus emphasising that the daughter article is a true appendix - example), but I'll leave that point there and congratulate you again on a fine article. Carcharoth (talk) 01:42, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Support with nitpicks. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Agree that a sound clip would help, although I don't know how easy it will be to obtain one

• See discussion above. We may have to do with an external link for the time being. Brianboulton (talk) 14:04, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• "at the height of her powers" - is "powers" the correct word here?
• What is a "celebrity" concert?

• It's how the local promoters described their concerts, but they were probably kidding themselves. I've removed the word.

• "departed into the Army" seems a bit awkward
• "Ibbs and Tillett, the London-based agency" - this was mentioned in the lead, but should say here what kind of agency this is
• Probably worth wikilinking terms like aria
• "create the role of Lucretia" - is "create" the correct term here?

• Yes, in BritEng. The AmEng equivalent is, I believe, "originate", but that isn't used over here.

Actually create is often used in American publications as well. See this search which shows hundreds of articles in The New York Times using the phrase.4meter4 (talk) 00:29, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

I've just got to that part of the article, and the phrase "create" didn't quite work for me. It depends on what the role of the composer of the opera is. For a play, you would refer to the actor/actress 'taking' the role, rather than creating it, unless the first actor/actress to take a role is part of the creative process of establishing the character. I would have thought the creative role would mainly be played by Britten here, and he would be the one that 'created' the role, and the singers merely 'take' the role. On the other hand, I now see that 'originate' can mean 'to be the first actor to play (a role)'. This is a meaning I hadn't been aware of before. I would suggest linking to wikt:originate, but the intended meaning is not easily linked to. Anyway, something to think about there. Carcharoth (talk) 02:24, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

• There are a few small punctuation errors throughout - for example, the Anderson caption shouldn't end with a period, "20th century songs" should be hyphenated, etc
• Glyndebourne or Glyndbourne? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for these further review comments and for your support. Except as indicated I have amended per your comments. I have linked "aria" and "soprano"; I'll look out for others. Likewise, I've fixed the two punc errors, and though I can't immediately see others I'll keep a watch. Brianboulton (talk) 14:08, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Support, per peer review, comment was incorporated. What I would like to know: Who were the sopranos with whom she performed the duets in the Mass in B minor? Did her interpretation of "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" change when she had to face death? What did contemporary critics write about her voice (who, when, quote)? Did she sing all the alto arias from Messiah which Handel intended for more singers? - Perhaps only my personal questions, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and support, Gerda. The answers to your questions, in order, are (i)Elizabeth Schwarzkopf (as now state in the article); (ii) I don't know; (iii) I think there are numerous indications throughout the article as to how her voice was regarded at the time, even though direct quotes from contemporary critics are scarce; (iv) re Messiah, I don't have this information. She sang the work many times and I imagine she covered all Handel's alto arias, though perhaps not those soprano numbers that he transposed down to suit singers such as Susanna Cibber. Brianboulton (talk) 13:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Support Overall I can find nothing wrong with this article. All things are included and well explaned. Jam000qaz (talk) 19:34, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.