Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of the National Hockey League (1967–1992)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 17:08, 17 January 2009 [1].

History of the National Hockey League (1967–1992)[edit]

Nominator(s): Resolute, Maxim

This is the third article in the series, as the articles covering 1917–1942 and 1942–1967 are already featured. It has already had a peer review, and is currently a good article. I've added Maxim as a co-nominator, as he helped write the article, and we look forward to all feedback. Do your worst! ;o) Resolute 19:00, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • First paragraph in the lead section - there is repetition with the phrase "were formed into". Try varying the wording more. This repetition with the word "formed" also occurs in the first paragraph of the background section.
  • Suggest wikilinking to farm system in the background section.
  • "The Flyers finished atop the West Division, recording 73 points ..." - when? please provide a year/season here. (1967-68 season?)
  • End of the two league era - "Word got out that the Canadiens, owned by Molson Brewery, and the Canucks, where Molson was served" - should this be Vancouver, instead of Canucks, in order for the sentence to make sense?
  • Per commons:COM:FOP (for Canada), the Gretzky statue photo should be okay, since it's permanently situated in a public place.
  • The references are all good and reliable, though the NHL - International Timeline and Asia Hockey League links are broken.

--Aude (talk) 20:30, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm, well that's annoying on the NHL removing a lot of their old articles. At any rate, I've replaced the second cite, and it looks like Maxim is catching the other points raised. Resolute 21:34, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed the rest. Res poked me about taking a look but I partially forgot and I partially had very little time. I'm still poking around and I'll polish the prose a bit more later. Maxim(talk) 21:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "(one team had ceased operations in 1978)" – which team? Why not just name the team, like "(this team had ceased operations in 1978)"
  • Perhaps "The NHL eventually became involved" for a sense of a timeline, otherwise it seems so sudden that they just so happened to immediately become involved
  • "Canada won the eight-game series with four wins to three withand one tie."
  • "including a current league record 215" – to show that it still stands; I didn't realize it still stood until the "also" in the following sentence
  • "by a meresingle point" – as "mere" makes it seem like someone thinks it was close, somewhat POV and would be better replaced

That's all I got from now from the lead. Gary King (talk) 00:28, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed those, but I'm trying to find a good copyeditor to look over the article. Maxim(talk) 02:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3

  • File:Orr.jpg - Each article needs a separate fair use rationale (WP:NFCC #10). Please write a fair use rationale specifically for this article on the image description page.
  • File:Paul Henderson 1972.jpg - According to WP:IUP, the source link should point to the HTML page that contains the image, not directly to the JPG.

Both of these images are supposedly "iconic" moments in hockey history. Since I know nothing about hockey, they do not obviously appear iconic to me. Remember that fair use rationales are not written for hockey fans, they are written for lawyers (who may or may not be hockey fans!). I think that the fair use rationales would be greatly strengthened by a citation regarding the iconic nature of these photos. These issues should be easy to resolve and I look forward to striking this oppose soon. Awadewit (talk) 01:54, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll let Res take care of these—I'm really not keen on having fair use images in an article with a few free images already. I may see some use for the Orr pic (it's more, or less, the most famous hockey image ever IMO), as Orr, the best offensive defenceman ever, he revolutionized the game with his style, is flying through the air after scoring the Stanley Cup-winning goal. Maxim(talk) 01:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In general, I agree, however being that these are probably two of the most famous hockey photographs of all time, and both directly relate to the topic, I felt they were important in this article. Across the four articles there are 31 images, only three of which are non-free, which I think is quite fair. And aside from these three - Henderson and Orr's goals in this article, and Plante donning his mask in the previous article, I cannot think of any other event of such significance that we would need a non-free image to adequately convey the historical significance of the moment.
I have rewritten both FURs, fixing the source link on the Henderson goal, and adding multiple sources to each, which I hope will address Awadewit's concerns regarding the veracity of my claim regarding the status of each image. Cheers! Resolute 05:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The sources for File:Orr.jpg demonstrate that this is an iconic photo and there is a clear mention of it in the text. Here are my thoughts on File:Paul Henderson 1972.jpg. It is clear from the sources provided that this is a famous goal. WP:NFC dictates that images of iconic status be accompanied by critical commentary. I suppose I'm not totally sure what "critical commentary" in this context might be, but there is a whole paragraph on this goal and a quote box related to this moment, so that seems sufficient to me (however, I do feel that the image falls into a "gray area" that could be debated - perhaps the quote box is enough to show the emotion, for example). All images have verifiable licenses and adequate descriptions. In my opinion, these FURs meet the requirements of WP:NFCC. I have therefore struck my oppose. Awadewit (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Your feedback is most appreciated. FU considerations can easily trip one up, so it is good to ensure that their use meets policy. Resolute 03:46, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (I took the liberty of fixing two newspaper refs. With {{citation}} you use the newspaper field to give the newspaper name, this makes the ref format properly) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - When is the fourth volume coming? Overexpansion, multiple lockouts, pros in the Olympics and my beloved Rangers breaking the Curse of 1940. What could be better? That's one that I can't wait for. Until then, I'll have to be content with offering my thoughts here.

  • Dollar values need non-breaking spaces, like this: $2.75 million. Click the edit button to see the formatting involved. In the lead, Bobby Hull's contract value needs one; the body should also be checked.
  • Winnipeg Jets isn't linked in the lead, unlike the other teams. Any reason for that?
    • It's linked, second para.
  • "Wayne Gretzky, who scored 200-points or more four times". Don't believe the hyphen is needed.
  • Background : "as each team selected a total of 20 players from the existing franchises." This is slightly wordy; these three words can be removed to make it tighter.
  • Link the full team name of the Montreal Canadiens in the second paragraph, by their manager's plan. Consider doing the same for the Boston Bruins in Expansion years, by their Stanley Cup win.

Overall, I find it quite well-written. This is all for now, but I plan on reading through more in the future. Be forewarned that six articles I'm reviewing are among the bottom 11 on the FAC page, meaning that they have top priority for me at this point. Giants2008 (17-14) 22:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed. The last article in the series is a GA—it needs a polish and when this one hopefully passes, or when the FAC is almost closed, it'll go to FAC, too. PS, Res and I will be really, really happy if you gave a review before the FAC. ;-) Maxim(talk) 22:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Masterton was rushed to hospital with massive head injuries..." Perhaps make it "a" hospital.
  • Watch for tricky "noun-plus-ing" sentence structures like this: "with the league eventually mandating their use by new players entering the league...".
  • Third paragraph of Bobby Orr: everything starts as either He or Orr. Some variation would be nice for "compelling prose" purposes.
  • Summit Series: "charging the startled police officers with their sticks allowing them to free Eagleson." Somewhat awkward part of a sentence.
  • "The Soviets were met with a relentless Canadian attack in the final seven minutes, outshot 14–5 during that stretch." Add "and" before outshot?
  • Link Alexander Yakolev. That name links to a dab, where it can be found.
  • Legacy: Comma after "and split Rendez-vous '87".
  • Twenty-one teams: "The team averaged only 9,800 fans". Make clear that this refers to attendance.
  • Another noun-plus-ing: "with the Islanders sweeping the Oilers". And remove the comma afterward.
  • "won by the Calgary". Giants2008 (17-14) 00:18, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good catches on all, and all fixed except the first. I think it sounds better as is. Searched the article for other instances of noun-plusing but did not find any. Resolute 17:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Opppose Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) The article is quite interesting. However, the writing needs a polish; hopefully, I can return to make more comments and copy-edit the article some. For now, a review of the lead and first section will have to suffice.

  • Multiple-page citations need "pp."
  • "The six existing teams were grouped into the newly created East Division, while the expansion teams—the Los Angeles Kings, Minnesota North Stars, Oakland Seals, Philadelphia Flyers, Pittsburgh Penguins and St. Louis Blues—were grouped into the West Division." "while"-->and, seems to be additional info.
  • "San Jose Sharks were added as an expansion franchise in 1991." No need to use the passive here, "were added"-->joined.
  • "The NHL eventually became involved in international play" What does "eventually" really tell us?
  • "starting with the Summit Series in 1972 which pitted the top Canadian players of the NHL against the top players in the Soviet Union. " Comma after "1972", "in"-->of.
  • "including a current league record 215 in 1985–86." Hyphenate "league record"
  • "when William M. Jennings, of the New York Rangers" Comma not needed.
  • "They formed the newly created West Division, while the existing teams were grouped into the East Division. " Same as above, change "while"-->and.
  • "Canadiens manager Sam Pollock's plan of allowing each team to protect eleven players to start, then add an additional player to their protected list for each player selected in the draft was ultimately agreed to as a compromise solution." The ideas are poorly integrated here, try this: "Canadiens manager Sam Pollock's came up with the compromise solution: allow each team to protect eleven players to start, then add an additional player to their protected list for each player selected in the draft was ultimately agreed to as a compromise solution."
  • "The old system where franchises sponsored junior teams and players was abandoned by 1969 as all junior aged players were made eligible for the entry draft."-->The old system, in which franchises sponsored junior teams and players, was abandoned by 1969 as all junior-aged players were made eligible for the entry draft. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good suggestions all, and all fixed. I did change up your suggestion on Sam Pollock's expansion draft idea, as your suggestion has a redundant use of "compromise solution". Looking forward to further feedback. Resolute 21:46, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good catch of my redundancy. Will return later today. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed my stance to "weak oppose"; some sections need significant polishing, especially in the bottom. These are examples from the "Rules and innovations" section.

  • "The 1982–83 North Stars and Capitals both finished with 16 ties in 80 games while 17 of 21 teams tied ten or more games." "while"-->and.
  • "As a result, the NHL reintroduced overtime for the 1983–84 season." Was it a result of the Stars' 20 ties the season before or a result of the general trend toward tie games?
  • "Before it was discontinued as a result of World War II"-->Before its discontinuation for (during?) World War II...
  • "The modern overtime format was set as a five-minute, sudden death period, with the game ending when either team scored."-->The modern overtime format was set as a five-minute, sudden death period; the game ended when either team scored.
  • "The doubling of the league in 1967"-->The league's doubling in 1967
  • "The playoffs were expanded to 12 teams as each division winner was granted a bye in the first round of the playoffs." "as" is ambiguous here, "as"-->, and each...
  • "to select two players of French-Canadian heritage, before any other players were selected and counting as Montreal's first two choices."-->to select two players of French-Canadian heritage, before any other players were selected. These players counted as Montreal's first two choices.
  • "Imlach admitted the made the player up," Doesn't make sense.
  • "The league reformated the Amateur Draft into the NHL Entry Draft in 1979, simultaneously lowering the draft age to 19."-->The league reformated the Amateur Draft into the NHL Entry Draft in 1979 and simultaneously lowered the draft age to 19.
  • "The public draft has grown, such that it is now held annually in NHL arenas, and televised internationally." Neither comma is necessary, especially the second one. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:30, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed those. I've been trying to find a copyeditor; Risker, who usually copyedits my articles, seems to be busy with arb stuff, and I'm having a tough time finding a good copyeditor. However, judging by your comments and suggestions, you'd make a very competent copyeditor. Considering you helped me copyedited a section already, would you mind/have the time (I know reviewers are stretched, but doesn't hurt to ask) to copyedit the rest? ;-) Maxim(talk) 21:26, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will do what I can. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:34, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "fastest 50 goals in NHL history" Some readers will not understand what you mean by "fastest".
  • Watch the journalistic language: "The Kings were the hottest ticket in town".
  • "'An award such as this takes a lot of teamwork and help and both teams here today definitely have a part of the 1,851,'" Logical punctuaton, are you sure that the comma is part of the quote?
  • Confusing wording and a typo: "as from the season in which they first signed European players, they won tree of the six remaining WHA championships"
  • A popular player, who almost always scores a lot and is one of the best at his position. Maxim(talk) 22:46, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The league reformatted the Amateur Draft into the NHL Entry Draft in 1979"—I think that there is a typo but wanted to double-check.

Dabomb87 (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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