Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gulfton, Houston/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:31, 6 June 2009 [1].

Gulfton, Houston[edit]

Nominator(s): WhisperToMe (talk) 23:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Since the first FA nomination, I have replaced old photos with new ones. Also User:Remotelysensed copyedited the article after I placed a copyedit request. With the errors indicated in the first FA nomination corrected, I would like to see how a second FA nomination would do. WhisperToMe (talk) 23:21, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original.
Still not fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed as many all caps as I could find. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other references are lacking authors, publishers, last access dates, etc. (Check your houston chronicle articles, that's where I especially noted lacking authors, etc.)
  • Five deadlinks in the link checker tool.
  • This was noted in the previous FAC, but not everything needs to be italicised. Websites dont' need to be italicised, only newspaper and journal titles.
still not fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I removed more italics. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:51, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As a general rule, the only things italicised should be newspaper titles, magazine titles, and book titles. The titles like City of Houston, Harris County, etc. don't need italics. (There are still more, but I'll strike this because it's much improved and will trust you'll get the rest) Ealdgyth - Talk 11:02, 30 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A concern is that large chunks of the article are sourced to primary sources, such as the organizations, schools, etc. Other reviewers should check the article for inadvertant bias
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
1. Some of the Houston Chronicle articles don't have authors indicated. What should I do in that case?
"Staff" works as an author. On the couple I spot checked, there were authors on the articles, though. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:51, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That works :) - Anyway, I'll look at the remaining references.
I improved some more refs. Are there any more that need attention? WhisperToMe (talk) 22:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WhisperToMe (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

2. Which ones are dead? I'll have to use web.archive.org to fix the dead links - For publishers, which references do not have publishers? Which ones don't have access dates? (Please use the numbers)
3. Many of the primary sources I used are to source school boundaries and stuff that isn't analytical. Even so, please feel free to look at the sources.
4. Should I un-italicize the websites in the references too, or just in the article body? EDIT: It is talking about sources, so I'll have to un-italicize non-newspaper source names.
Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 01:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Of the Chronicle citations, I caught one ("Afraid to be counted") that needed more info (author, date, access date) entered. There were two ("Mexican village" and "sports anchors") that needed an access date. There was a Houston Business Journal article that needed author info. There was a Chron article that needed an author info ("Hurricane Rita") - I also caught one all of the dead links with the link checker WhisperToMe (talk) 02:44, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I de-italicized and filled in info for some sources with incomplete information. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I think this needs significant work on its prose (in particular, the organization of the prose) to meet the FA bar.
    • I find the first sentence problematic. In particular, the location of "including" at the very beginning bothers me. Are the apartment complexes the defining feature of Gulfton? The way the first sentence is structured now, Gulfton's location seems to be an afterthought; the focus is on these puzzling apartment complexes. Try perhaps "Gulfton is a community in southwestern Houston, Texas, United States that..."
    • I question the choice of the lead picture (or at least the caption needs some rethinking). The caption is quite specific, but there's no tie to the greater article. Is it a famous landmark in Gulfton? Is it indicative of Gulfton's economic troubles?
    • The lead, which should summarize an article, seems a bit short.
    • "with new apartment complexes " missing a verb here.
    • "In the 1980s, the economy declined and the community became home to newly-arrived immigrants." Are these two ideas connected? Seems odd. If so, might need some further explication here.
    • "and aspects of Latin American culture and recreation." Jarring after a long list of buildings...
    • "the Shenandoah subdivision was built," How does this relate to Gulfton? Explain.
    • "Rice Center" I assume this has something to do with Rice University. Link?
    • What impact did the young northerners have on the community?
    • "DRG Funding" What's this?
    • "Lantern Village" Italicized because?
    • "rent rates at poorly-maintained apartments in Gulfton and other Houston areas were about the same as at well-maintained apartments in other areas of Houston" I thought the previous sentence mentioned that landlords reduced rates in Gulfton?
    • "pouring money down a perceived rat hole." Citation for quotation?
    • "Goodner lobbied for services such as a satellite health department clinic for apartment renters." Does not fit well with the rest of the paragraph.
    • "In July 1989, members of the Houston Resident Citizens Participation Council...did not like to see funds" Odd, awkward construct.
    • So the HRCPC did not want to see funds diverted...what actions did they actually take?
    • What's the implication of being designated a "Community Development Target"?
    • "Public Life in Gulfton: Multiple Publics and Models of Organization, a 1997 article," If this is an article, it should not be italicized.
    • "Robert Fisher, a professor and chair of Political Social Work..." This paragraph seems rather out of place, and breaks up the chronological flow.
    • I stopped reading at the end of 1980 through 1992...I got really bogged down by the organization and flow of the prose. I think you'll need to rethink how you're using your sources to build a cohesive story. The 1950s through 1979 led me to wonder about how the development of Gulfton was related to the development of Houston as a whole. Where did it fit in with that story? How did this influx of northerners affect the community?
      • The jumping from description of the history to description of the sources used is particularly jarring. For example, "In that article, Gaines" <-- why do we need to know that Gaines said this in a particular news article? That's not the important or interesting part. You're using footnote citations...that's their purpose. I'd suggest, "According to Gaines, the complexes in Gulfton began to cater to illegal aliens, and landlords allowed renters to "double-up" housing, with several individuals and/or families sharing the same unit."
    • Cite your quotations.
    • Not really related to FA criteria, but the first two maps need some work. Both are zoomed out a bit far, and hard to make out what is important to note. The first one seems awfully busy. Think about your data-ink ratio... BuddingJournalist 05:16, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'll look at the rest of these later, but for right now I'll start with these:
      • 1. You said: "I question the choice of the lead picture (or at least the caption needs some rethinking). The caption is quite specific, but there's no tie to the greater article. Is it a famous landmark in Gulfton? Is it indicative of Gulfton's economic troubles?" - This particular complex is discussed in the history section of the article. It became well-known in television advertisements featuring Michael Pollack, who had an over-the-top advertising style. It is indicative of the economic troubles because this complex became bankrupt and foreclosed (it says so in the caption and in the main article). Is there a way to make this more obvious/clear to the reader?
      • 2. You said: "Cite your quotations." - The quotations I used come from the citation afterwards. I.E. the quote "double-up" is to citation #5, "conservative" is to citation #13, "lost its focal issue" is to citation #15. Each block of text has its citation at the end, with everything sourced from the citation. How should I modify the citation structure?
      • 3. The instance of the italicized Lantern Village was changed to quote marks
      • 4. Regarding "with new apartment complexes" - This is the full sentence: "Gulfton was developed in the 1960s and 1970s, in the midst of an oil boom, with new apartment complexes geared towards young singles from the Northeast and Midwest United States who came to work in the oil industry." - The verb is in the previous part of the sentence.
      • 5. You said: "Are these two ideas connected? Seems odd. If so, might need some further explication here." - The sentence referred is from the lead of the article. Does the lead need more explanation taken from the body of the article? The body explains that, since the previous group of tenants left since there was the oil bust, the owners of the apartment complexes needed new tenants and attracted immigrants. - Since the lead needed more content, I decided to add an explanation.
      • 6. You said: "How does this relate to Gulfton? Explain" regarding Shenandoah - The later sections explain that Shenandoah became threatened by the deterioration of Gulfton and tried to block its streets; this connection is regarding events that take place at a later time (mid-1980s) than the beginning of the development of Shenandoah (1950s). Here's my question: What should I add to this sentence?
      • 7. Regarding Rice Center, the Kim Cobb article doesn't give any further explanation to what Rice Center is. Rice Center is a part of a name. (the point is that the person is from the "Jesse H. Jones Center for Economic and Demographic Forecasting at Rice Center") - Should I explain what the Jesse H. Jones Center is?
      • 8. You said: "The 1950s through 1979 led me to wonder about how the development of Gulfton was related to the development of Houston as a whole. Where did it fit in with that story? How did this influx of northerners affect the community?" - The 1950s through the mid-1980s was an economic boom time for Houston and there was a need for housing for the many white collar workers coming from the north. The apartment complexes were built to house these workers. The community of Gulfton did not begin until the apartments opened. Regarding "What impact did the young northerners have on the community? " - The young northerners were the Gulfton community. Of course Shenandoah, the adjacent subdivision, had no problem with them. It was only when the demographics changed in the 1980s when the Shenandoah subdivision began to react.
      • 9. Regarding the construct about the funds being diverted, I decided to alter the order of the sentences and explain what a "Community Development Target" is.
      • 10. You said: '**"rent rates at poorly-maintained apartments in Gulfton and other Houston areas were about the same as at well-maintained apartments in other areas of Houston" I thought the previous sentence mentioned that landlords reduced rates in Gulfton?' - Neither statement conflicts with the other - One can reduce rent rates in X neighborhood, but people in Y neighborhood can reduce their rates at the same time.
      • 11. I explained what DRG Funding is. It is headquartered in Washington; I don't know which Washington the article is referring to.
      • 12. As for the maps, I got them from a U.S. Government website and pieced them together from screenshots. Do you know of any GNU or public domain map services I could use?
      • 13. Regarding the Goodner sentence not fitting; the whole sentence is "John Goodner, a Houston city council member representing a district including Gulfton at that time, said that more changes occurred in his district in the several years leading up to 1988 than in any other area of Houston; Goodner lobbied for services such as a satellite health department clinic for apartment renters" - What I am saying is that his city council area changed, and then he lobbied to serve the new population of the area.

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:47, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'll respond on this FAC's talk page, so as not to clutter up this page. Seems like we may be talking past each other on some of these points. BuddingJournalist 06:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by karanacs. I read about half the article closely and skimmed the rest. Therefore, the comments listed below are not comprehensive; the whole article needs to be looked at from the perspective of these examples. Overall, I thought the article wavered between including too much trivial detail and not including enough relevant background information - I think it would be difficult for someone not familiar with the Houston area to understand all of the history section, for example. The prose is adequate but needs improvement to meet the FAC standards, and the sourcing could definitely be improved (although I was pleasantly surprised at how much you were able to find in journals and newspapers).

  • Lead issues:
    • Is the image of the apartment complex really the most suitable for the very top of the article? I would expect to see the map of the neighborhood's location, as people unfamiliar with Houston would likely be confused by just the text description.
    • Vagueness (example from the lead: the schools were increasingly overwhelmed; - what does that mean? overwhelmed by what?)
    • The chronology of the third paragraph in the lead is off. Why discuss 2000 information then go back to the 1980s? Some of the information in the third paragraph also seems much too detailed for the lead.
    • The lead does not adequately summarize the article. What about the government section?
  • History section
    • The focus seems off. The first paragraph is geared more towards the Shenandoah subdivision. Much of this information is probably useful, but it could be reworded to keep the focus on Gulfton rather than making it seem like we are backtracking into a different article.
    • The chronology is off. Why do we hear about Shenandoah's future clashes before we ever even hear of anything happening in Gulfton?
    • Watch capitalization -- White people?
    • The history section never actually tells when the neighborhood of Gulfton was created - when did it gets its own name? Why wasn't it part of Shenandoah? Who was responsible for first developing the area? Did its boundaries always match what they are now? Who designed the "widely-spaced grid road pattern"? Was this done on purpose to attract apartment complexes (and if not, why use that type of road)? If it was always intended to be apartments, what did the Sheanndoah people think at the time - were there any protests or grumblings?
    • the development of apartment complexes was not well planned or coordinated, and there was often little interest in building a quality product. -- is this specific criticism directed at the apartments in Gulfton or is this more vague - apartment-building in general in this timeframe?
    • Might want to put in a bit more background on what caused the decline in the economy in the 1980s.
    • Why include the trivia on the advertisements for the Colonial House Apartments? If they were only well-known through the Houston area, then this doesn't seem that important to the article, especially since Michael Pollack is not exactly a well-known name (I've never heard of him, and no wikilink).
    • Why such a focus on the Colonial House Apartments, that they get an entire paragraph? Is there a reason they are singled out over other apartments? Was this the largest complex?
    • Why didn't the new residents have easy access to government services? There needs to be a bit more background tieing this in together.
    • Did the Central American Refugee Center target its work at Gulfton, or was its reach much broader and it was just based in Gulfton? If the latter, it really isn't worth mentioning in this article - that is essentially more trivia.
    • I'm still not understanding why the merger of the GANO and the GAAC affected relations with the Shenadoah Civic Association. This needs more detail.
    • Did nothing happen between 1992 and 1998? Any more details on the apparently growing difficulties between Shenandoah and GANO?
    • The paragraph on the Navarro killing needs to be totally redone. Lose the irrelevant details (do we care about the time?), and include more background - this paragraph does not tell someone who didn't follow the case what was actually going on and why this was a big deal.
  • Is it normal to have a history of elementary schools in a neighborhood article? This seems inappropriate to me. The information would be better placed in a school district history article.
  • Sourcing

Karanacs (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

        • I'll explain more about some of these points in a sec. But first:
          • Regarding "the schools were increasingly overwhelmed" - Overwhelmed with excess students. I'm going to correct that now; it shouldn't be vague.
          • You said: "The chronology is off. Why do we hear about Shenandoah's future clashes before we ever even hear of anything happening in Gulfton?" - That was from a suggestion by BuddingJournalist. I'm going to get the two of you to talk about that one, because to be it seems like what he suggested seems contradicts what you suggest (maybe I'm wrong, but what I wrote was a direct result of his comments).
          • The name - First, it didn't become a part of Shenandoah because Shenandoah is entirely made of single family homes and Shenandoah refers to the homes. "Gulfton" refers to the apartment complexes. The area simply got the name by the 1980s; there is no story involving one group suddenly deciding that this community needs the name "Gulfton"
          • Schools - On the contrary, the history of the elementary schools is very important to this neighborhood. The sudden filling of the area elementary schools is one of the main points of the development of the neighborhood. Also moving this info to the school district article would be worse because this would seem off topic. Remember that the Houston Independent School District is the largest in Texas and has many schools, so a specific history detailing individual schools would be very long and drawn out. What is here is specific to the neighborhood. Considering that many of its residents are children and that the filling of the schools has been detailed in newspapers, I feel that the section is vital and must be kept.
          • METRO: You said: "Why source info on the new Metro lines to the Metro website? - I know that has been widely covered in the Chronicle, and there is no reason to be going to the self-published Metro site instead. The Chronicle will at least give additional background and reactions" - The source "Public Life in Gulfton: Multiple Publics and Models of Organization." mentions that a group lobbied for an increase in METRO lines. That is one thing. Two, the Houston Chronicle mentions people asking why Gulfton doesn't have a stop on the proposed University Line. For specific lines going through the neighborhood, I feel that primary sources are appropriate for this particular piece of information. I would like to check the archives of Houston Chronicle more regarding METRO specifically in Gulfton, though.
          • Regarding Rice, I'll have to see if there is a source that talks about Rice's headquarters. BTW the website source is used for the **address,** which confirms the location.
          • The primary sources are generally used to confirm basic details and not analytical details. The analyzing comes from reliable sources.
          • WhisperToMe (talk) 17:17, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any reason why addresses should be included in this article at all. That is overly detailed information. I also highly disagree that primary sources are satisfactory if secondary sources exist, and I still think the school chronology is overly detailed and out of place here. We don't need (and the majority of readers of this article won't care) that X school opened in Y year. Karanacs (talk) 17:20, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am fine with removing addresses on the page. What I discussed above was using an address as a source. Anyway, I feel that the "X school opened in Y year" is actually very imporant in three places: When Gordon re-opened in the 1980s, Benavidez opened in 1992, and when Rodriguez opened in 2003, as they directly were responses to the results of the socioeconomic changes in the Gulfton neighborhood. On the other hand, the opening dates of Cunningham, Braeburn, Long, and Lee had little effect on the neighborhood. I could remove the opening dates of those schools. Also I could remove the opening dates of the charter schools. How does that sound?
You said: "Did nothing happen between 1992 and 1998? Any more details on the apparently growing difficulties between Shenandoah and GANO?" - Stuff did happen between those years, but they are mainly mentioned in specific subsections. I would have to look at that source to see if it has any other information.
Regarding: http://www.escapesexpo.com/speakers.asp?id=1 - The only way in which this was used is to state what Rice Center is; Budding Journalist suggested that I explain what Rice Center is. For what it is being used for it should be reliable. An official website of an EXPO would take care to say the truth, no?
http://www.neighborhood-centers.org/uploads/gulfton1_english.pdf - Only being used to confirm that these three elementary schools were connected to Gulfton.
Regarding primary and secondary sources, Wikipedia:Primary_sources#Primary.2C_secondary_and_tertiary_sources states "Deciding whether primary, secondary or tertiary sources are more suitable on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on article talk pages." - So therefore one has to use the different sources in appropriate matters. I feel that simply using primary sources to state that these particular METRO routes go through the community would be a good usage of primary sources.
The information for the exclusion of Gulfton from the rail line was sourced to a source. I'll have to see when the Chronicle covered some basic details of the METRO new line and if any details need to be backed up.
I revised the Oregon paragraph. I'll have to see when the lawsuit concluded.
The press used the fate of the Colonial House as an example of what every Gulfton apartment was going through in the 1980s, so having Wikipedia repeat with using Colonial House as a fate, with sourcing directly from the Chronicle, would be appropriate. Also that is why I used the Colonial House image at the top, as it represents a typical Gulfton apartment complex.
So far I cannot find any press sources which describe the Rice Epicurean HQ as being "in Gulfton" - So far I only have the address, which puts it in the area. There was an article that described the Fox News Center, located in the same area as the Epicurean HQ, as in the Gulfton area.
The guidelines about primary sources do not say use them as little as possible - They say to use them properly. There is a difference. If you wish to contest primary sources, please state how the reference is not appropriate.
You said: "Might want to put in a bit more background on what caused the decline in the economy in the 1980s. " - Sounds like a good idea. There is a wider oil bust that may even merit its own article. I could ask the people at the Houston WikiProject for help.
WhisperToMe (talk) 17:29, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until my colleagues' issues are fixed, and it's generally better written. The sheer number of critical comments above indicates that this text has not undergone the appropriate level of copy-editing and scrutiny WRT the other criteria. This is unfair to other nominators and to our overworked reviewers.

  • Is the huge caption at the top all relevant to the pic? Can't some of it be in the main text?
  • 1950s–1979? 1980–92? Much neater.
  • 1992–present is a "quickly dating" problem. When is the present in two years' time? Delimit by stating 2009.
  • Why is "US dollars" linked? Is it exotic, like the Tibetan razu?
  • Parts of it are overcited. Here's a doozler: "The attendance boundaries of Benavidez Elementary School, Braeburn Elementary School, Cunningham Elementary School, and Rodriguez Elementary School cover sections of Gulfton.[4][118][119][120][121][122]". Really contentious statement, that one. Can it be conflated into ONE ref. note?
  • Acres convert to hectares, please, not square metres.
  • For pity's sake, why is "English language" linked?
  • No hyphen after -ly adverbs. See MOS.
  • What a desert. Those pics make me depressed. (This is not part of my review.) Tony (talk) 17:13, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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