Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flag of Japan/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:37, 27 January 2010 [1].

Flag of Japan[edit]

Nominator(s): User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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The last time the article went to FAC, there was a lot of issues with the prose. It has been, I would say, 2 year since the article last went to FAC and the prose has improved over time. I also have improved the sourcing and images of the article. Some of the newer things, like your alt-text and the linking to construction sheets for flags, I also tried to snag before sending it here. It was recently at peer review, where I was able to run scans for disambiguation links, dead links and other minor things. I hope this article is seen as a vast improvement and I hope that you find this more concise and generally overall better since it's last go around FAC. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:18, 30 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment on refs This article uses the same "one-section only" style that math and science articles use – which I cannot Oppose. However, the full sources for Dower, Hood and Weisman are not provided. I supply them to you below; deciding how to fit them into this scheme is your task:
  • Dower, John W. Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II. Norton, 1999. ISBN 0393046869
  • Hood, Christopher Philip (2001).Japanese Education Reform: Nakasone's Legacy. New York, NY: Routledge, Taylor and Francis Group.
  • Weisman, Steven R. (1990, April 29). For Japanese, Flag and Anthem Sometimes Divide.The New York Times.
I replaced the first reference with a book I found on Google Books and used the full information. I removed the second reference entirely, since it is later covered by http://web.archive.org/web/20080110115759/http://www.mext.go.jp/b_menu/houdou/11/09/990906j.htm. The last reference I seemed to have removed on accident, but cannot see where I actually used it. However, I will try and find a way to use it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:27, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I readded the Weisman reference in the article. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:35, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comment on refs. I have no problem with the single-section style (which I prefer, personally), but I think the references would definitely benefit from a translation of the many Japanese titles into English. I'd also prefer to see {{ja icon}} rather than the text "(in Japanese)", but I'm happy to let that one slide ;o) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 12:31, 2 January 2010 (UTC) Thank you :o) — OwenBlacker (Talk) 14:31, 3 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    If the {{cite}} templates are being used, they have a |language= parameter which adds the "(in Japanese)" text. There is also a |trans-title= parameter which can be used to provide a translation. ···日本穣? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:30, 2 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support (Note: I have not evaluated the sources, as I cannot read the bulk of them.) This article presents a clear history and description of use of the modern Japanese flag. The only suggestion I have is to rewrite the fourth paragraph of the "Postwar period" subsection so that the timeline is clearer. I would also suggest removing some details from it, as it outweighs the other paragraphs. I compared this to other flag FAs and it seems to have the same kinds of information, so in that sense it is comprehensive. Awadewit (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments Support - just starting a read through and will jot queries below like Awadewit, I'll take the refs in good faith but the prose and comprehensiveness seems sound: Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of Japan's oldest known flags is housed ... - be nice to have some date here.
Approx. 1000 years old, according to the source. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - A well-written, intriguing article. Very nicely done.
  • While the flag was designated as the national flag from 1870–1885 and since August 13, 1999, by the Law Regarding the National Flag and National Anthem, it has been used as the defacto flag for a longer period. - Doesn't read well to me?
Otherwise, looks really good. ceranthor 01:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Images

I removed the first and second images, most likely will remove the fourth image. I just have no idea when the 朝日新聞社旗 was first even used either as an actual flag or their logo. The construction details appear in Japanese law, but regardless, I removed the PD-Japan tag and released it under PD-self. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:31, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've struck through the three that you removed. The one that remains, File:Flag of JSDF.svg: it still lacks a source and any details about why the flag itself would be PD. That you released the photograph is fine, but the flag image itself would have to be released too. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 21:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The law that created this flag was passed in 1953, which makes it public domain in Japan. That page that I linked at the image is the law itself with the construction sheet listed from 1953. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 21:25, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's in Japanese, so I can't read it, and I can't see that image on the page (sorry if I just missed it). Can you post a translation of the relevant section? SlimVirgin TALK contribs 22:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm really sorry to disagree with the editors above, but I don't think the article passes WP:WIAFA 1a. Some sentences seem really awkward and jump around in tense. There are a quite a few grammar errors too. I've given some examples below. I'd fix them myself if there'd only been a few, but I think a thorough copy edit is needed to get through the whole thing - probably by someone who's never read the article before.

  • For American ships who are engaging the Japanese, a modified "O" signal flag was used
  • In response, the President of the DPJ, Yukio Hatoyama (who voted for the Law Regarding the National Flag and National Anthem), said that that banner isn't the Hinomaru and shouldn't be regarded as such.
  • First para of design (ie splitting the dates of design between the start and end of the para),
  • The ratio, according to the proclamation, was seven units high and ten units wide (7:10). The red disc, which represents the sun, is calculated to be three-fifths of the total size of the hoist length. The disc is decreed to be in the center, but is usually placed one-hundredth (1/100) of the flag width towards the hoist.
  • or were later found among the remains of deceased Japanese soldiers (remains of?)
  • For example, beginning on The Emperor's Birthday on December 23, 2002, the Kyushu Railway Company has displayed Japan's flag on 330 manned stations
  • In China and South Korea, both occupied by Japan during the Empire of Japan, Japanese flags were burnt during protests against Japan's foreign policies or if a Japanese prime minister visited the Yasukuni Shrine in Tokyo (The Empire of Japan was... an Empire, not a period. The Yasakuni protests are ongoing and this should be mentioned).
  • When more than one foreign flag is displayed, Japan's flag is arranged in the alphabetical order prescribed by the United Nations or place the Japanese flag in the middle and place the other national flags in the UN alphabetical order
  • For instance, when former Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto died in August 2006, the Japan Communist Party objected to the display of a mourning flag by the city of Uji, Kyoto, citing the objection to the flag from the brother of Hashimoto.
  • Because of the association of the Hinomaru with uyoku dantai (right wing) activists, reactionary politics or hooliganism, homes and businesses do not fly the flag, even on national holidays. (None of them?)

I also think the article could be more comprehensive in some areas (WIAFA 1b) and relies a little bit too much on 'For example'. The History section doesn't really need an example of a letter by Prince Shotoku, but a good summary of the significance of Rising Sun in Japan - 日本 can translate as Rising sun after all. There should probably be more detail on the obligation on families to fly flags during WWII and all the nationalistic fervour that existed then.

I also think a few more refs are needed (WIAFA 2c), for instance:

  • It said that the sphere finial must be covered by black cloth and a black ribbon is placed above the flag. The width of the ribbon must be the same size as the flag. Since then, mourning flags have been used on the deaths of emperors or members of the royal family. Mourning flags have also been used on other occasions and sometimes such a use has been controversial.
  • The hachimaki is still present in Japan with various slogans, designs and used for a variety of purposes.
  • The flag is flown from sunrise until sunset, although a business or school is permitted to fly the flag from opening to closing.

I think this article can make FA, but I think it needs another going over and a bit more time than this review will allow. Sorry, Ranger Steve (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I've made some fixes, but like I said, they were just examples. Cheers, Ranger Steve (talk) 18:11, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will address the sourcing issues first before I can attack the prose (I am short on time right now). The first statement about the mourning flag, http://law.e-gov.go.jp/htmldata/T01/T01F01801000001.html is the ordinance with a diagram showing the proper way to dress the flag for mourning. I was surprised this was taken out, but I will add it back in again. Pages 92-93 from Takenaka's book also talks about the mourning, so I will include that too. I will remove the second statement. The third statement, http://www.police.pref.hokkaido.jp/koukai/tuutatu/keimu/keimu-105.html is a regulation that mentions what times it could be flown (though the Sarago reference also mentions the bit about schools). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:47, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to snag some of the prose issues now (I have asked the copyeditors guild to look over this article but I am not sure if they managed to get to it yet). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 18:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW I've gone through a few of my own concerns, but I'm afraid my oppose still stands. These were just examples and I think a thorough c/e is needed (a good outsiders view and changes usually do the trick). I'd offer to do it myself, but I'm running quite a temp at the moment and not sure how far I'd get! Ranger Steve (talk) 19:00, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to snag at least what you stated, but I work in less than an hour. About the first para of the design, I spoke about two different pieces of legislation. Proclamation 57 was first, then the merchant ensign one. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:19, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm really sorry, but having read through it a second time with a view to a c/e, I just think there's more to work on.

  • The lead doesn't summarise the overall contents of the article particulalry well (WP:FACR 2a), and seems to needlessly repaeat itself with regard to the dates of use. I think the 2nd and 3rd paras could use a total rewrite.
  • I'm not sure the structure is right either (FACR 2b).
    • Protocol seems misplaced as a subsection of Present day perception, and might be better combined with Use and Customs (or vica versa) or given a section of its own.
    • Perceptions - although there's a section for present day, it might be worth expanding it to include more history - the WWII issue is a big one with this flag. There is info about this, but its spread throughout the article and could be better centralised.
    • The first subsection of history (Pre 1945) seems incredibly general given that the flag was officially used in the 1800's in a totally different era and context to the nationalistic uses of WWII (and then the section pre 1945 doesn't mention the war at all). The following section (Postwar American occupation period) is then very specific, but leaves a gap before the next section (1999 - present).
  • Comprehensiveness (FACR 1b); I think certain sections and sentences need to be expanded.
    • Why was the flag dropped during the Meiji Restoration and not officially replaced?
    • Why is the flag so unpopular in far eastern countries? (need some reasoning of Japan's actions when the occupied China and Korea and the resulting bad blood for readers less in the know).
    • Definately needs more about its use in WWII.

I also have one query about a citation. My Kanji is rusty, but does this actually promote the flying of the flag? It looks more like a listing of national holiday's to me, without implying that these are occasions the flag should be flown.

It's a fair bit of work. I'll have another look tomorrow and see how my temperature is doing, but I still think this is a bit too much work to fit in during an FAC. Regards, Ranger Steve (talk) 20:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then you never met me before; no work is too big. Anyways, that JPEG image is of a package I received from a Japanese flag manufacturer. Those are flag flying days, but not codified into law. They do match the national holiday list. I am switching the protocol section to the usage and customs section. I will take a look at some of my books and see what information I can pull. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:47, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
About your citation issues; the laws passed about the flag were not published in any official gazette in 1885, so it was cancelled. The second part about the flag not being popular, it is more of who the flag represents than the actual flag itself. I explained about their war crimes. I am finding out more about the uses in WW 2, and found some for other wars, like the Russo-Japanese War. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I started a section about WWII and from the Post War until 1999. I am finding more details on Google Books, but I am just hoping I am not making this way too long. i am already at 100+ citations, but I am editing at a slower speed (trying to edit from a netbook is not fun, trust me). There is data I need to pull from the sources and perhaps find information about the actual vote for the Kokki Kokka Hou (the 1999 law). I believe the Itoh reference I use in the article now might have that information. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 06:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of changes

I did a lot in the past few hours, so here is a summary:

  • The history section is now split into 5 sections (new sections include early conflicts and WW2 and Postwar to 1999). I completely changed the 1999 section to just discuss the law, competing legislation and some of the after affects with the flag. I did purchase the Itoh book I use a reference so I expect to pull a lot more information than I could just from Google books.)
  • About the Second World War, the only thing I could find about their uses at the home was just it was required on national days and other occasions by request of the authorities. I explained some of the reasons why, but I am still digging. I explained about the role of the flag during that period and including the introduction of the famous Hinomaru Bento (which is quite delicious, I might add).
  • I made the protocol into their own section and I put the school issue in a subheading under that. I feel that a lot of the issues are centered around the school and it should stand out on it's own instead of being put in different sections.
  • I addressed the image issues above, but my research seems to be failing me at 3 am. I know the Taisho funeral photograph was taken in 1926, but decided to use a government law image which was from 1912. I had some pictures from 1989 of this flag but my hard drive decided to off itself and make those images corrupted. I still do not know when the Asahi flag was created, but will try and find again (documentation about that flag is very little). However, I have found paintings in the 1930's with this flag (and described as such).
  • I am still trying to find people to fix the prose, but I am not sure who event wants to touch this. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 08:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I read mainly the lead of this revision as of 19:53, 19 January 2010 UTC. To indicate notable things as notable, we should select topics and screen contents. And, we should handle sensitive topics more carefully.

Criteria index

1. It is (a) well-written; (b) comprehensive; (c) well-researched; (d) neutral; (e) stable.
2. It follows the style guidelines, including the provision of— (a) a lead; (b) appropriate structure; (c) consistent citations.
3. Images.
4. Length.

My comments

4 and 1 (e): Details about the mourning styles can be omitted. I know the half-staff style, but I wonder how many people saw or would see this flag in the ribbon-added style. I am from Japan but I can not call it a Japanese custom.
1 (c) (d): Existence of rightists does not explain why some Japanese people dislike this flag or, why many Japanese people willingly recognize this flag as that for sports teams of Japan.
1 (b) (c) (d): Yasukuni Shrine is NOT a state-run shrine, and remembrance of the war dead at the shrine is NOT a foreign policy of Japan. This citation is missing a major fact that enshrinement of war criminals triggered controversies. I hear there were Japanese soldiers promising each other to meet at Yasukuni after dying apart in service. Remembrance of such war dead is not a problem between Japan and Asia, right?
4 and 1 (e): Hinomaru Bentō box lunch is not so notable, I think; here I don't challenge the story, but that was just one stone in a long and tragic road for ordinary people to be gradually involved in the war, I suppose. I also doubt such a box lunch became a custom in the wartime while foods were becoming scarce.
1 (b) (d), 2 (a) and 4: The subject of this article is not the wartime history. If so, it is recommended to cover a variety of views as to controversial points such as the number of the victims. In this article, however, what is important is not such details but the fact that this flag has shouldered a burden of militarism and nationalism of Imperial Japan in a past few decades, I suppose.

My changes (major ones) till revision as of 00:55, 20 January 2010 UTC

  • I modified errors in this part (quoted below) of the lead.

The Hinomaru flag was officially adopted as the civil ensign by Proclamation No. 57, February 27, 1870. Legislation passed during the Meiji era designated the Hinomaru as the main ensign used on merchant ships. Because of changes in the Japanese government and handling of laws, the Hinomaru was chosen the de facto national flag of Japan in 1885.

Such a legislation did not exist. Before the 1999 Act, there was no law passed by Japan's legislative body to designate a particular flag as the national flag. There were two such proclamations isuuedissued by 太政官 (Dajōkan or Daijōkan), the executive body in early Meiji Era before the Cabinet system was started in 1881.
The cited "Proclamation No. 57" of Meiji 3 was about merchant ships. Later-issued Proclamation No. 651 of Meiji 3 was about flags used by Navy.
Here in the lead I omitted the following details. Designs of the national flag are different in the two, and are the same in the latter proclamation and the 1999 Act. This Act has supplementary provisions: Article 2 is to repeal the former, and Article 3 is to allow another design (which was provided for in the former proclamation) for the time being.
  • I hid a sentence referring to rightist groups and a phrase "the remembrance of war dead at Yasukuni Shrine," both in the lead.
  • I replaced "American" by "U.S."
  • I replaced ambiguous "crimes" against Okinawans by other words.
  • I removed a part in the lead regarding the restriction in late 1940s under U.S. occupation and hid another referring to Warring States' legend, thinking them as details which are needless to be covered in the lead.

--Dumpty-Humpty (talk) 01:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC) -- Added words for clarification at 01:56, 20 January 2010 (UTC).[reply]

  • The reason why I included the ribbon mourning style is that I seen it often during state funerals for former prime ministers and also for display in government buildings. I had a lot of photos from the funeral of the Showa Emperor using this style of mourning. Since it is still legal, I felt it was important to note two styles are acceptable and legal and Japan. I will look at your other comments and make responses. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:38, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let's see; the visits to Yasukuni are a domestic issue for Japan itself, but it is China, South Korea and some extent the United States that makes it a part of their foreign policy issue. Diplomats have refused to meet Japanese leaders if they visited the shrine and it is a key foreign policy question when asked to both Aso and Hatoyama when they were competing for the office of prime minister. However, I did reword why the shrine is such an issue and included a source. I took out the war dead number; I was asked to include it because there are people who will not know about different events that took place during the war, such as that incident in Nanking (that some call a rape). I still think the warring states is needed to be mentioned to at least give the reader an idea of when the sun was first used as a symbol for the Japanese. The US statement should be readded to the lead, but trimmed. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:08, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Actually I think a period when a flag is banned (officially or not) in a country that is hugely significant and should be mentioned in the lead. Dumpty Humpty, I'm not sure what your change in the lead to the Okinawan paragraph means. Are you referring to the Battle of Okinawa? If so I think it should be worded to something like "In Okinawa, the flag is a reminder of the Battle of Okinawa, which devestated the islands in 1945". The current line ("the flag represents the fire and battle between Japan and U.S. which involved their land and people") is a bit awkward in English. Ranger Steve (talk) 09:17, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
RE: the Okinawa line: Thanks for a nice alternative to the line. My intention was to avoid "crimes," which could be mistaken for war crimes (for which war criminals were officially tried), but I failed to make it concise.
RE: the lead: The restriction is just an example ofamong incidents during early postwar reforms. The Yasukuni issue is just an example ofamong major controversial issues. I think we'd better not make the lead long and complicated with such examples. If the lead refers to the fact that this flag was used as a symbol of the military empire of Japan, I suppose it's enough for readers to understand the restriction under U.S. control (mentioned later in the article). This fact is also a reason why some Asian people have feeling of hatred toward this flag, and why even some Japanese people hate this flag or, say no against being forced to fly this flag.
RE: history: We should avoid going too far into historical matters. We have to mention atrocities by Japanese Imperial Army because they used this flag, but I think we'd better not focus on 'how the atrocities were' in this article.
RE: term for invaded ones: Expressions such as "occupied nations" "countries that were occupied" need to be replaced by, for example, "invaded countries / areas." Korea was colonized by Japan, rather than occupied. China was invaded by Japan, not wholly occupied, before Kuomintang moved its base to Taiwan.
RE: mourning styles: I copy-edited the paragraph on mourning styles. Photos of Hinomaru in the two styles may work as sources for them. We have to give up describing them as general customs with legal basis. The 1999 Act is the first and only legislation (= law passed by a legislative body) as to the national flag, and it provides nothing for how or whether this flag shall be used.
RE: the Hashimoto instance: I hid the instance of a controversial issue over condolences for former PM Hashimoto. (To revive this instance, each of the following facts requires a source. The government demanded municipalities and Boards of Education to express condolences; his brother (then Governor of Kochi Pref.) declined it; JCP members insisted government's demanding so is against the Constitution.) Freedom granted by the Constitution is a point of this issue, just as in the Hinomaru-Kimigayo issue of public schools; so we'd better separate this instance from the paragraph on mourning styles, I think.
--Dumpty-Humpty (talk) 20:24, 20 January 2010 (UTC) --Modified words at 20:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
About the mourning section, I feel that it is important to note who can order the flag at half-staff. While anyone could do it, we should at least mention who controls it on the government side. In the two recent featured articles about flags, Flag of Canada and Flag of Singapore, we have that information. Would something like http://www.kantei.go.jp/jp/tyoukanpress/rireki//2005/08/02_p.html work for you, Dumpty? User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 04:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As of 26 January. I'm sorry, but it still needs a lot of work. There's dozens of typos and grammar issues, and some serious prose issues. The very first line has one and then the first line of the next para and so on. There's a smattering below to demonstrate what I'm on about - it's not that I'm finding fault (if they were isolated problems I'd fix them myself) but there's too many for me to go through without putting some serious time aside (and I'm quite busy nowadays).

  • The national flag of Japan is a white rectangular with a large red disc
  • The Hinomaru designated as the national flag in Law Regarding the National Flag and National Anthem, which was promulgated on and is effective from August 13, 1999.
  • Public perception about the national flag varies between Japanese and foreign peoples, even among Japanese people.
  • To Okinawans, the flag represents the fire and battle between Japan and U.S. which involved their land and people.

And that's just the lead..... I see a lot more work in the main body. On the plus side I do like the WWII expansion, well done on that. Nice find on the umeboshi bento too, I'd never thought of that, but it seems so obvious now! Regards, Ranger Steve (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose.

  • "a white rectangular" in the opening sentence: missing a noun here ("cloth", perhaps?) or should it be "rectangle"?
  • Third sentence: "The Hinomaru designated as the national flag in Law Regarding the National Flag and National Anthem, which was promulgated on and is effective from August 13, 1999." Three problems in just one sentence: missing verb; there should probably be a "the" in front of "Law"; and "is effective" should be "became effective".
  • "varies between Japanese and foreign peoples, even among Japanese people". This makes no sense to me.
  • "used on a banner to a warlord": I think this should be "by a warlord" but I'm unsure so unwilling to change it.
  • "display of the flag inside Japan is low": this is an imprecise use of "low"; the intention is presumably that the level or frequency of display is low, but the elision blurs the meaning.
  • "The use of the flag and the national anthem Kimigayo has": should be "have".

This doesn't exhaust the problematic prose just within the lead. I'm afraid I have to oppose on 1a. A careful read-through by a fluent English writer is needed. Mike Christie (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed all of the stuff in the lead, I will try and find more people on that Copyeditors Guild and see if they will deal with this. I am just glad that all of the citation/info issues are dealt with, just the prose (this always kills me, even though I speak the damn language since day 1 of my life). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 03:16, 27 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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