Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ernst Lindemann/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 18:13, 1 May 2011 [1].

Ernst Lindemann[edit]

Ernst Lindemann (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it may meet the strong quality criteria at FAC as well. The article was heavily scrutinized in the previous reviews. The challenge with this article is the Germanic terms for which the English sources do not present a uniform translation (at least to my knowledge). I therefore have introduced a translation section which has been debated before. I appreciate any feedback and hope that the reviewers balance their criticism between the general concern "too Germanic" and factual correctness. Thanks. MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Support on prose issues per FAC disclaimer. I was kind of a pain at the A-class review, so I'd like to be the first to support here. I've checked all the edits since my last edit. As he says, there are interesting, non-obvious issues about how best to balance the German language and German sources. Best of luck, and I'll keep an eye on this. - Dank (push to talk) 16:42, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Question: I see a couple of these in the text: 48°10′N 16°12′W / 48.167°N 16.200°W / 48.167; -16.200. Anyone have a problem with these, per WP:NOICONS? - Dank (push to talk) 17:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
MOSICON only applies to the Wikipedia encyclopaedic project content, those icons are Wikipedia functionality content much like the add to watchlist icon Gnevin (talk) 22:36, 29 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yes; we've gotten rid of flag icons, should be a way to remove these awful icons and external jumps from the wiki text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:40, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

  • Given that the bibliography does note which sources are in German, I don't think it's necessary that the citations also do so except for sources not included in Bibliography
  • "In April 1934 he was ordered to the Wilhelmshaven Shipyard (9 April 1934 – 11 November 1934) for training in ship construction and familiarisation with the heavy cruiser Admiral Scheer" - source?
  • I don't speak German, so for my benefit can you explain what makes this a reliable source? Who is the author, the publisher?
    • If that one doesn't work out, I remember running across several snippets of books at Google books that explained what a "hypothetical bank" was, and the connection to Lindemann's father's bank. - Dank (push to talk) 20:16, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • The link between Lindemann (dad) and the bank is documented in Grützner page 21 which is cited. I also took this picture on my last walk through Berlin. Read the head stone. I am only using the link to document the evolution of the Eurohypo. A similar picture is also published in Grützner page 412 MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • For citations to multi-author works, be consistent in whether you use "and" or "&"
  • Why do you include all three authors in citations to Hildebrand, Röhr and Steinmetz, but only one for Fellgiebel?
  • Citation 76 needs retrieval date
  • Ballard 1990, Dörr 1996, Die Wehrmachtberichte are not cited - either cite or move to a Further reading section
  • Bibliography formatting needs to be more consistent. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:03, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • "Bismarck left Hamburg for the first time on 15 September 1940" - source?
  • Probably worth briefly explaining what the colours and symbols on the map represent
  • Battery Lindemann or The Battery Lindemann?
  • File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1984-055-13,_Schlachtschiff_Bismarck,_Seegefecht.jpg is tagged as lacking author information
  • File:Rheinuebung_Karte2.png - what source was used to add the lines and symbols on this map? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:03, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I agree with Nikkimaria - it is unnecessary (and ugly) to repeat (German) for every one of the citations. It is sufficient that the language is specified in the Bibliography section. Aa77zz (talk) 08:43, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree too but it was an explicit request at A-class review! See "*In the references, use the {{de icon}} template after the ref tag but before the citation so we know which ones are German vs. English. Kirk (talk) 12:58, 9 March 2011 (UTC)" Please advise. This is contradiction is it not? MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:53, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, I think you can consider it consensus that the {{de icon}} is unnecessary for every citation. Just make use of the language= paramater of {{cite book}} and you're in the clear. On a similar note, with your web references, it's not necessary to mention that the format is HTML; that's presumed. Only if it deviates (i.e. PDF) is it necessary to populate the format= field. Seegoon (talk) 15:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: you've done and excellent job with this biography. Most of the tiny details are noted already, and most have been fixed in a very timely manner. The only suggestions I have don't diminish the weight of my support (especially since they are more from an editor's POV than a reader's), just there to push you from "good" to "very good". I know you got a lot of guff for the German translations in the ACR, so I'm not trying to pile-on here, juts voice concerns. bahamut0013wordsdeeds 15:33, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Integrate the "notes" and "translations" sections into one header. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (layout) doesn't mention this at all, but I think the fact that the translations are just a specific type of note qualifies this.
    • Be a bit more consistant about translations. For example, some are capitalized in German but not English, while some are both (I understand that with rank, it's caps when used with a name and uncaps as a description, but both languages need to match). I'm also not sure what your rationale is when choosing to translate parenthentically or use notes; you could probably benefit from more consistancy here.
      • I was informed at A-class review that a military rank (in the English language) is only capitalized if it is mentioned before the name of a person. This differs in German. Please advise MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • The German convention is caps regardless? I would be consistant with the English one here. bahamut0013wordsdeeds 20:08, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • The capitalization of German nouns in English text is very inconsistent, because in German, any kind of noun is capitalized, pretty much always. So to anyone who reads German, "kapitän" in normal text looks almost as strange as "cAptain" does to us ... the capitalization just looks wrong. And many of the people who like to read about WWII have a higher tolerance for German words than average. So, I'm okay with either using the English case consistently in the article or capitalizing all German nouns ... unless we start to develop a clear preference within the project, in which case I'll support the preference. - Dank (push to talk) 20:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not sure you need note 5, just wikilink Freiherr and I think the reader will understand easily enough.
    • There are some other translation where I think you could either drop the parenthenticals and just wikilink, or just use the English word for simplicity (such as Abitur/diploma and bedingt tauglich/limited duties). Of course, not being a German speaker, I'd be ignorant if there was some sort of context or semantic distinction that probably needs to be noted, especially when comparing the article to the refs, so take that with a grain of salt (for example, I noted in your ACR that "bedingt tauglich" is a term used by the navy, but I would lean more toward the simpler form).
  • Support. This a nicely written article that I enjoyed reading. Just a couple of questions:
    • What is the source for File:Rheinuebung Karte2.png?
      • The German version of "Müllenheim-Rechberg Freiherr von, Burkard (1980). Schlachtschiff Bismarck 1940/41—Der Bericht eines Überlebenden (in German). Berlin, Frankfurt/M, Wien: Ullstein. ISBN 3-550-07925-7." on page 76 shows a similar map tracing the paths of British and German vessels. My German version of Von Müllenheim-Rechberg's book was expelled at A-class review. I'm not sure if I can use it as a reference. MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'd like to see that added to the image's description then, as right now there's no indication at all as to the reliability of that map. Malleus Fatuorum 18:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • done please have a look if it matches expectations MisterBee1966 (talk) 19:29, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • That seems fine to me. I wouldn't have worded it quite like that, probably preferring to say something like "based on the map on page 76 etc.", but that's nothing really. Malleus Fatuorum 20:14, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the Death section we're told that "Normally on a German naval vessel, a white cap is worn only by the commanding officer", yet in none of the photos of Lindeman is he seen wearing a white cap.
      • Grützner published a number of pictures of Lindemann showing him during sea trials in early 1941 always wearing a white cap. The pictures in the article show Lindemann during the commissioning of Bismarck. He wears his gala uniform that day and is not representative for his "working" uniform. I added the two words "at sea" to make this clearer. MisterBee1966 (talk) 18:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Malleus Fatuorum 16:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Having worked on the article I might be a bit biased, but I consider this an article well worth featuring. The above suggestions make it more so. Rumiton (talk) 04:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC) One small point. After WW2 the Royal Navy mandated white caps for all officers. I do not know whether the German Navy followed suit. If so, were worn would be appropriate, rather than is worn. Rumiton (talk) 05:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Just a few brief comments:

  • Rather than 'Translations', would that section be better titled 'Translation notes', and the translation notes, general notes, and references, all made subsections of a larger section titled 'References and notes'? They are, after all, each one produced by inline citations and footnotes, and are logically grouped together.
  • The placing of the 'Personal life' section after his death and the section about his award is a bit jarring. You really need to say who his wife is and who the family are, before mentioning them in the Knight's Cross section (and earlier). I think the first mention of his wife and family outside of the lead section is 'Lindemann spent his leave with his wife and daughter and returned on 1 January 1941'. This is followed by the next mention at 'Lindemann's comrades of Crew 1913 all contacted the young widow after his death'. You are then given the full story of his marriages and family in the next section. Personally I would put the whole 'personal life' section between 'early life' and 'naval career', as it is better to briefly divert to describe this (and then go back to his naval career), than to spend ages on his naval career, and then jump back to describe his marriages and family after first mentioning them without the full context provided in this 'personal life' section. (Note that in the lead section, his marriages and family are mentioned before his naval career - it works there, so should work in the main body of the article as well.)
  • The 'In popular culture' section - it is two sentences and is about his depiction in a book and film. This is less 'popular culture' (a terrible phrase at the best of times) and more 'depictions in media' or 'Book and film' or 'Depictions', so I would just call it something like that, and/or merge this section in somewhere else (e.g. make a subsection of 'Awards and honours' called 'Book and film'). Also, mention the book first and then the film, and give the publication year of the Forrester book.
  • I also took a closer look at the red-links. Two have de-wikipedia articles (Friedhof Dahlem and Hermann Boehm, which could both be translated) and one is obscure enough that it could maybe be de-linked (Lönne Fjord - it would be more helpful to say in the article where the Lönne Fjord is exactly).
      • Yes, I know, I even visited St Annen Church and the Friedhof in Dahlem and took pictures. At some point I will write an article but this is not in scope right now. MisterBee1966 (talk) 10:58, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if these points have been raised in earlier reviews, but they are what struck me on a brief skim through the article. Carcharoth (talk) 23:46, 8 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Translations: There is an inconsistency about what takes precedence in translated terms. Sometimes you use the the English translation with the German original in parenthesis (e.g. probationary judge (Gerichtsassessor)), sometimes the German with a translation to English in parenthesis (e.g. Kapitän zur See (Captain)) and sometimes the English translation with the German original in a note (e.g. Carmer Street).
  • Early life
    • The Royal Polytechnic Institution was not a university in 1912 and I don't think it had any facilities in Richmond at that time. What did he study?
  • Personal life
    • Birth and death dates are provided for his first wife, but not his second wife, Hildegard Burchard.
  • Imperial Navy
    • Is there a source for the income of Germans in the 1910s?
    • In text, WP:MOS prefers "percent" or "per cent" rather than "%".
    • Was his acceptance "on probation" due to his suspect health or was that the general status of all new cadets?
  • World War I
    • "Lindemann was assigned to SMS Lothringen, a battleship which belonged to the 2nd Battle Squadron of the High Seas Fleet under the command of Vizeadmiral (Vice-Admiral) Reinhard Scheer, taking on the position of 3rd wireless telegraphy officer." As the bit between the commas is quite long, I think it would be better to state what position he was given earlier, e.g. "Lindemann was assigned as 3rd wireless telegraphy officer on SMS Lothringen, a battleship..."
    • Although you have linked to Operation Albion, it might be useful to mention where Pamerort, Toffri and Hiiumaa are.
    • There are gaps between March 1916 and September/October 1917 and from November 1917 to November 1918. I know that the German fleet spent most of its time in port during this period, but do the sources say what Lindemann was doing during this time?
    • "12 January". state the year as with other dates.
  • Between the wars: Reichsmarine
    • For the German ranks, you variously give equivalent ranks and translations of ranks in parenthesis.
      • For Oberleutnant you give sub-lieutenant, which is the equivalent rank British naval rank although it translates as Senior lieutenant.
      • For Korvettenkapitän you give an equivalent (Lieutenant Commander) rather than a translation: Corvette Captain
      • For "Kapitänleutnant you give an equivalent (Lieutenant Commander) rather than the translation: Captain Lieutenant. This is a lower rank than Korvettenkapitän, but it is given the same equivalent rank without explanation making Lindemann the same equivalent rank as his commanding officer, Otto Schultze. Need to capitalise the equivalent as with others.
      • For Generaladmiral you give a translation (Grand Admiral) rather than the equivalent: Admiral. The General Admiral article says that Generaladmiral is subordinate to a Grand Admiral/Großadmiral.
      • Erich Raeder is given the rank of Vice-Admiral rather than Vizeadmiral.
        • I was instructed to only use the German rank on the very first occurance. All following instances have to use the closest English translation. Vizeadmiral/Vice-Admiral was already introduced in section "World War I" MisterBee1966 (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Link watch officer.
    • What is a division officer?

A division (or divisional) officer is a medium ranking officer in charge of one of the departments involved in running the ship. eg Stores, Catering, Pay etc. Rumiton (talk) 17:12, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Between the wars: Kriegsmarine
    • It is not correct to say that the Nazis seized power on 30 January 1933. On that date Hitler was appointed Reich Chancellor by Hindenburg, but the seizure was not achieved until after the Reichstag fire and the issuing of the Reichstag Fire Decree and the Enabling Act in March 1933.
      • reworded "seized power" to "came to power" to leave it intionally vague. This article is about Lindemann only. MisterBee1966 (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Don't need the Ernst in the fourth sentence.
    • What was Wilhelm Marschall's rank whilst Lindemann was under his command.
    • In the second paragraph, it is not initially clear which ship he is on. In the first paragraph it said he was on Hessen, but was ordered to Wilhelmshaven for training between 9 April 1934 – 11 November 1934. Based on what comes next, he, presumably, then stayed on Admiral Scheer rather than return to Hesen, but this is not stated.
    • Admiral Scheer needs to be put in italics in the second paragraph.
    • "Lindemann as first gunnery officer was responsible" needs commas around "as first gunnery officer".
    • Marschall is given the English rank title Captain rather than the German Kapitän.
      • His rank was Kapitän zur See at the time, his position was Kapitän or commander. This is ambiguous and a reason why I would like to retain German ranks throughout the article. MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • 11 officers, 15 non-commissioned officers and 266 sailors only totals to 292 men; who were the other 58 in the landing party? The Admiral Scheer article gives the complement as 1,150 - a third of this is 383 not 350 or 292.
    • Give the German rank for Commander and for Captain.
      • Defined in the "Early Life" section! Fregattenkapitän is a commadner and Kapitän zur See is a Captain. MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are Bremse and Hektor both gunnery training ships or is the latter something else?

Hektor was also a gunnery training ship, ex-Orion. Rumiton (talk) 17:29, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Commander of the battleship Bismarck
    • Where and how did Lindemann express his frustration at being commander of the gunnery school and his doubts about getting Bismarck complete before the end of the war?
    • "...a situation rare if not unique in the Kriegsmarine." Presumably, you mean for someone of his seniority. Is there a source for this?
  • it is cited (Grützner page 222) and yes for his seniority and for the fact that his fisrst command was a battleship MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • As you make the point about him having served only on ships with large calibre guns, it might be worth stating what calibre Bismarck's largest guns were?
    • The point is made that von Müllenheim-Rechberg's was the highest ranking officer to survive the following year's battles, but his rank is not stated?

At the time of the sinking he was a Kapitänleutnant. Rumiton (talk) 17:20, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

    • As you use Gotenhafen, it might be appropriate to use the contemporaneous German name "Bay of Danzig" here.
    • Given it was crucial to the eventual destruction of Bismarck, some further explanation of the reason for the rudderless steering problem would be useful. Was any report made of the steering problem or effort made to find a solution?
    • "the majority of the officers, non-commissioned officers and sailors" could be just "the majority of the crew". Where was Bismarck at this time? If he celebrated Christmas on board and he was back on the ship on 1 January, the leave was short. Is it significant because it was the last time he saw his family?
      • Bismarck was in Gotenhafen, as stated in the paragraph before that. All sea trials were held out of Gotenhafen. MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:56, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Operation Rheinübung
    • Link Denmark Strait, and describe where it is, because readers may think that it is near Denmark.
    • Link HMS Prince of Wales on first use. Would be better to name the two British ships earlier on.
    • "the battleship Bismarck". At this stage in the story, just the name should do.
    • "HMS Cossack, Sikh, Maori, Zulu, and Piorun". Shouldn't that be "HMSs Cossack, Sikh, Maori, Zulu and OPR Piorun". None of the torpedoes hit their target.
    • You don't mention that the damage to the rudder forced Bismarck to steam in a large circle for some time.
    • Did U-74 or any other U-boat pick-up the war diary?

It appears not, as U-74 was still submerged as Bismark was sinking. Rumiton (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross
    • Hildegard Lindemann is described as a "young widow", how old was she?
      • Birth date is unknown, however she was 14 years younger. I added this to the article MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Mrs Lindemann" rather than "Frau Lindemann"?
      • I fear that this may not go well with those that favour English terminology. I bend to consensus here MisterBee1966 (talk) 06:47, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes

--DavidCane (talk) 16:23, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment—Overall it appears to be in good shape. Here are a few items that caught my eye:

  • This sentence seems like it could be written more clearly:
    "He was the first of three children of Dr. jur. Georg Heinrich Ernst Lindemann (also known as Ernst), a probationary judge (Gerichtsassessor) and later president of the Prussian Central Land Credit Company, a Prussian credit bank, and Maria Lindemann, née Lieber."
    For example:
    "He was the first of three children of Dr. jur. Georg Heinrich Ernst Lindemann and Maria Lindemann, née Lieber. Known as Ernst, Georg Lindemann was a probationary judge (Gerichtsassessor) and later president of the Prussian Central Land Credit Company, a Prussian credit bank."

Done. Thank you. Rumiton (talk) 14:30, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • "...this time to their own house..." Why does it say "their own house" here (and not elsewhere)? This may need to be clarified.
  • The article could explain why the family send Lindemann to the Royal Polytechnic Institution in England for six months. If this was meritorious, he didn't appear to warrant it.
  • "As Lindemann had finished fifth in the Class of 1913..." If the academy training was terminated before completion and the officer examination was skipped, how did he finish fifth in the class?
  • If Lindemann never commanded a vessel prior to Bismarck, I think it warrants some further explanation as to why he was selected ahead of commanders with more direct experience. Surely there was some other factor at work, such as family influence or a heavy loss of suitable commanders. Who, for example appointed him to the command, and were any other candidates considered? Were there any recommendations noted?
  • Was there any criticism of Lindemann's tactics during the final battle?

Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 19:18, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Conditional support Support – alt text need to be more descriptive. According to [2], the second photo only has "SMS Hertha". Now a vision impaired reader might not know what that means. Some of my suggestions are "black and white photograph of white ship on water", also mention the chimneys, the posts, etc. Same with 4th, 6th, 8th and 9th photographs. Sp33dyphil Ready • to • Rumble 03:33, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(Filling in for MisterBee) alt text is new to me. Your suggestions seem sound...why don't you make the changes yourself? Rumiton (talk) 14:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
done Sp33dyphil Ready • to • Rumble
I thought this alt text nonsense had died a natural death. Alt text is an alternative to the image, not a description of the image. The suggested alt texts are in my opinion a long way wide of the mark. My suggestion would be "photograph". Malleus Fatuorum 01:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I can sort of see your point, but, what's the point of alt text of there's no description?
The point of alt text is to say succinctly what the image is and to serve as an alternative to it, not to describe it, hence "photograph". To take just one example, that of the lead image: "The head and upper torso of a man. He wears a peaked cap, black naval coat and a white belt with dagger. His facial expression is determined; his eyes are looking straight into the camera." That's an interpretation of the picture (his facial expression is "determined" in whose opinion?), not a description, and is far too long to act as an alternative to it. Malleus Fatuorum 17:27, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone done a source verification/close paraphrasing spot check? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A very limited one, but there are too many German-language sources for me to check much (anyone who reads German, have at it!). Nikkimaria (talk) 01:53, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I read German, but don't have access to the sources. MisterBee will be back in a few weeks. Rumiton (talk) 10:25, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • German ranks I am having a dilemma with this issue. Between sub lieutenant and admiral in the Royal Navy there are 8 ranks. In the German Navy there are 11. It is therefore misleading to say any of these ranks can be translated as any other, the seniorities are completely skewed. Literally translating the German titles doesn't work either. Kapitänleutnant would become lieutenant captain, a title which once existed in the RN, but which was abolished 200 years ago. Suggestions? Rumiton (talk) 10:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only one suggestion, which is don't translate the titles of the ranks. Malleus Fatuorum 17:17, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would someone please review for WP:OVERLINKing, WP:ENDASH, WP:ITALICS, and isn't there a way to get those awful coordinates icons out of the middle of the text? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 1 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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