User talk:Sayanha7

Welcome![edit]

Welcome to Wikipedia, Sayanha7! Thank you for your contributions. I am NitinMlk and I have been editing Wikipedia for some time, so if you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page. You can also check out Wikipedia:Questions or type {{help me}} at the bottom of this page. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

Also, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name using four tildes (~~~~); that will automatically produce your username and the date. I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! NitinMlk (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

November 2018[edit]

Hello, I'm DBigXray. I noticed that you made one or more changes to an article, Lal Jas Raj, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. DBig Xrayᗙ 14:29, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 2019[edit]

Please do not add or change content, as you did at List of Khatris, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop adding unsourced content, as you did on Khatri. This violates Wikipedia's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Fylindfotberserk (talk) 10:51, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Please elaborate[edit]

What in my changes did you find unsourced? Sayanha7 (talk) 11:13, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bias against Khatris[edit]

I believe there's a bias against khatris. Everything in favour of khatris are immediately deleted while everything against them is kept, despite those lacking substance. Sayanha7 (talk) 11:16, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you on this completely. I have tried to portray right information about khatris but they never accept it. They always show anti Khatri literature Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:37, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm ready to provide source[edit]

I'm ready to provide source for each word that I added, on the condition that they would be re-added. Sayanha7 (talk) 11:17, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you anything reliable, discuss on article talk first. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:26, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody on Article talk to discuss[edit]

I've made several proposals in Khatri talk, nobody there to respond. I'm of the view that the article is biased against khatris and doesn't represent the true picture. It should represent the views of the Khatris. The article on the Rajputs say that it is derived from Sanskrit Rajputra, then the article on Khatris must also say that the word is derived from Sanskrit Kshatriya. Bhai Gurudas Vaaran itself is enough to establish this fact. If there are still doubts on this, then I'm ready to provide further evidence. This kind of biasness towards any caste or community should not be here on a platform like Wiki. I'm not asking the article to glorify Khatris, but neutrality must be maintained. Sayanha7 (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced or original researches are not allowed. Only reliable and neutral third party sources, mostly books are allowed. "Bhai Gurudas Vaaran ", etc are not considered reliable. The article has gone through a lot of POV to add anything like that. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:24, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is reliable? Books written by English authors about a particular community?

Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning of Khatri[edit]

Atleast we must provide the meaning of Khatri according to different dictionaries like Oxford, Merriam Webster and Urban dictionary. Sayanha7 (talk) 13:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bhai Gurudas Vaaran[edit]

What is reliable as per your definition? Bhai Gurudas Vaaran is a major Punjabi work of medieval era, not including it is actually betraying the spirit of neutrality. Our job is not reaching to a conclusion, but to present all the different viewpoints on the subject and leaving the rest on readers.

If you are reluctant on adding a work like Bhai Gurudas Vaaran, then why is Dashrath Sharma's views there either? What's the proof that he is taking of the Khatri caste from Punjab and not the Tailor Pattegars who also call themselves Khatri. Probability of the second is more, since there are more Pattegars in Rajasthan than Punjabi Khatris and that the book which is quoted is about Rajasthan based Chauhan polity.

It is an undisputed fact that Khatri is the Punjabi varient of Kshatriya, just as Chhetri is Nepali varient of the term. Everywhere in Punjabi literature, only the term Khatri has been used to refer to the second caste of four fold Hindu caste system. I can quote Guru Granth Sahib, if you wish to.

The article is not neutral in any sense of the term but only gives out a very negative and biased idea of the Khatris. Sayanha7 (talk) 17:00, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you on this. It is lack of awareness on part of Wikipedia. That they themselves are supporting such biased comments against a particular community. Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:44, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dashrath Sharma not reliable[edit]

Dashrath Sharma was no historian but a Rajasthan based glorified bard. Sayanha7 (talk) 17:02, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously you haven't gone through the message posted by User:NitinMlk. Anyway, please go through WP:RS to know how to identify reliable sources. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fylindfotberserk, last year I explained to them regarding relevant standards for caste-related sources – see User talk:NitinMlk#Edits on Khatri page. But they still haven't shown any sign of improvement. They even think that Urban Dictionary is an acceptable source for providing "meaning of Khatri": I guess they didn't read all three meanings of Khatri there. Anyway, they either have WP:CIR issues or they are not here to build an encyclopedia. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:51, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NitinMlk, Urban Dictionary! It brings up competence issues. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 07:27, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How is Dashrath Sharma authorative?[edit]

"sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people." How is Dashrath Sharma, a man who has only written biased books glorifying certain community from a particular state, can be regarded authorative on another community from a different state? Further there's no evidence of the fact that he is talking of same Khatri community about whom this article is.

I've already shown my reason for why its unlikely Sayanha7 (talk) 17:18, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

DS alert[edit]

The Wikipedia community has permitted administrators to impose discretionary sanctions on any editor who is active on any page about social groups, explicitly including caste associations and political parties, related to India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Nepal. Discretionary sanctions can be used against an editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you engage in inappropriate behavior in this area, you may be placed under sanctions, which can include blocks, a revert limitation, or a topic ban. The discussion leading to the imposition of these sanctions can be read here.

Please familiarise yourself with the information page at Wikipedia:General sanctions/South Asian social groups.

- NitinMlk (talk) 18:52, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral sources suggesting that Khatri is indeed the Punjabi form of Kshatriya[edit]

While the Khatris were grouped with Banias between the vaidyas and kayasthas as the "Vaisyas proper or plebeian middle class," it was obviously improbable that the Khatris desired this classification to be maintained, and the evidence laid before me not only brought out the conspicuous part played by them in the authentic history of Punjab in modern times, but seemed to make it clear that in British India at any rate they are generally believed to be the modern representatives of the Kshatriyas of Hindu tradition. For census purposes the fact that most people do hold this belief was sufficient in itself, and it would be irrelevant to enquire into the grounds upon which the opinion was based. Superintendents of census were accordingly instructed to include the Khatris under the heading Kshatriya in their classification of castes. The People of India, social types, Page number 113, by Herbert Risley, William Crooke.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QA2OKK0-bdcC&pg=PA113&dq=Khatri+is+Kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn1eja1q3kAhWHK48KHbgtCtc4FBDoATADegQIARAW#v=onepage&q=Khatri%20is%20Kshatriya&f=false

Just like the Hindu caste system, Brahmans, Khatris (equivalent of Kshatriya), Arora (equivalent of Vaish), and Shudra composed the Punjabi community. People of India: Maharashtra, Part 3, Page 1746, by B. V. Bhanu.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=4bfmnmsBfQ4C&pg=PA1746&dq=Khatri+is+Punjabi+equivalent+of+Kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjOsonR2a3kAhULLI8KHYQWC_IQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=Khatri%20is%20Punjabi%20equivalent%20of%20Kshatriya&f=false

"Etymologically the name Khatri came, no doubt, from the second or warrior tribe of Manu's four divisions, the Kshatriya." Later Mughals, Page 82, by William Irvine.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=ak5oFjTys8MC&pg=PA82&dq=Khatri+is+Kshatriya&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjn1eja1q3kAhWHK48KHbgtCtc4FBDoATAIegQIARA0#v=onepage&q=Khatri%20is%20Kshatriya&f=false

"Khatri: A Hindi abbreviation of Kshatriya." An Anglo Indian dictionary by George Clifford Whitworth

"Khatri or Kshatriya and their Castes Khatri appears to be unquestionably a Prakritised form of Sanskrit Kshatriya," Encyclopaedia of Sikh Religion and Culture - Page 264, by R. C. Dogra, ‎Gobind Singh Mansukhani.

"Khatri appears to be an adaption into Prakrit of the Sanskrit Kshatriya," Jammu & Kashmir - Page 445, Kumar Suresh Singh, ‎K. N. Pandita, ‎Sukh Dev Singh Charak. Sayanha7 (talk) 19:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is it that these people really don't want to edit all the information you are providing. I am amazed by their attitude Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:58, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No doubt there is bias against khatris in Wikipedia. I have given up, no point in arguing. Sayanha7 (talk) 15:12, 17 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible to add Herbert Risley's remarks under the origin section?[edit]

Risley is a neutral person, his remarks should be given a place. I've already provided the source. Sayanha7 (talk) 11:56, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not! Risley or for that matter, most British Era sources are strictly banned from Indian/South Asian caste/ethnic articles. There was a big discussion and consensus in the past. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:33, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

William Irvine[edit]

What about William Irvine then? He is neutral, he was born years after British era ended and his work came in a much later date. BV Bhanu's quotation also deserves a place. There are other quotations also about the etymology of the term Khatri and its origin, all from neutral and post British era sources. Sayanha7 (talk) 14:47, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

They still didn't do it. Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What can be done I am in. Rishabkapania77 (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]