User talk:Obsidian Soul/Archive 6

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Red yeast rice ref?

I am willing to believe that red yeast rice is/was used in cooking in the Philippines - as angkak - but page 163 of the reference you provided mentions fermenting fish and rice without any description of it being red yeast rice or for that matter, mention of coloring being switched to achuete seeds. Can you find a different reference? If not, please delete. I have nominated this article for a Good Article review, and want to be sure that the references are valid. David notMD (talk) 12:01, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Wrong ref. I was just quickly copying a sourced sentence from another article, since I noticed the article does not seem to mention the Philippines at all. I've changed the wording and the references. But yes, angkak is traditional in Filipino cuisine, along with achuete, as the two main pre-modern sources of red food coloring. I'll leave it up to you whether to mention achuete or not, or change the wording further, but angkak was and still is most definitely used traditionally in the Philippines. It's also used in other SE Asian countries for similar fermented dishes (Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.), which you might want to address for the GA nom.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 13:01, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

My own expertise is on the dietary supplement side rather than culinary. In USA an interesting regulatory situation - legal to sell if does not contain the fermentation product that lowers cholesterol synthesis AND no claims are made that the supplement lowers cholesterol. People buy it because older versions contained monacolins and lowered cholesterol and were marketed as such. David notMD (talk) 16:37, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh wow. I didn't even read the rest of the article until now. Heh. It's weird to know that something ordinarily associated with fermented food here in most of East/SE Asia is being used as a drug/dietary supplement elsewhere. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 00:23, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Poor-faith comment

It’s fine to revert and then cite other sources that support what you say. It’s not fine to justify your original bad edit by falsely claiming another editor didn’t do due diligence. The “entire paper” says nothing like what you claim in your reversion comment. Please reconsider your behavior. If I have somehow missed the reference, then provide a page and quote. Strebe (talk) 04:37, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Strebe: Tell me exactly which of my original changes were "not in the source"? I didn't change any information, I merely clarified two things. First the usage of the term "Malay Archipelago", which is an older term and a bit misleading as it is ethnocentric to the Malay people who are obviously only found in Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, and Indonesia, not the entirety of Island Southeast Asia. They are synonyms in this usage, so I don't understand what the problem is. The term Malesia would have worked too. They're the same terms. Only clearer in meaning.

Secondly, I clarified that the populations in the Mediterranean are not native and arrived there via ancient trade routes, as the original text simply said that they "existed there for centuries" with no explanation as to how they got there in the first place. This is in the original source, if you actually read past the abstract. The paper fully discusses how each species likely reached the Mediterranean and their origins.

I'm impatient with assumptions of poor faith, which is what your original revert was. I'm sure you're aware that reverting itself can be taken as assuming bad faith (see WP:REVEXP). That includes your most recent unnecessary revert which also does not make sense. I removed the CE from the dates, and you reverted it saying "do not use CE or AD unless required". So which is it? Use it or not use it? I'm not exactly a new editor, and wikilawyering is one of my pet peeves.

My expansion is unrelated to my original edit. Drama notwithstanding, my edit was clearly in good faith. Leave it at that. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 05:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

These were entirely my errors. Apologies. I think I need a rest. Too high a fraction of my time on Wikipedia is beating back entropy. Entropy becomes the presumption and then it just turns into seeing things. Strebe (talk) 05:51, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

@Strebe: I was snappy and impatient as well. I do hope I don't cause a Wikipedia:Wikibreak. I'm in the same boat. Just took a chunk out of my morning to expand that article, so I wasn't exactly in the best of moods. I apologize. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 05:57, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

You were fine, really. I would have been cross in your place. Cheers. Strebe (talk) 06:25, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

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Coconut sprout?

Hi there, I saw that you had created the article coconut sprout but the article is only concerned with the sponge-like substance inside the coconut itself and mentions nothing about the shoot from which leaves form. The latter is what is usually viewed as being the sprout and is also known as heart of palm. Wouldn't it be better to use another word for this sponge-like substance? The word "sprout" is fairly ambiguous in this instance as it could mean both this spongy substance as well as the shoots that come out of it. One of the sources that you added in the article haustorium mentions "coconut apple" (see https://marketlessmondays.wordpress.com/tag/choosing-coconut/) which can only mean the spongy inside without the shoots. - Takeaway (talk) 13:21, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

@Takeaway:I am using the common name from the sources (e.g. [1], [2]) which is also fairly accurate since it refers to the cotyledon of a sprouting coconut. Google seaching "coconut sprout" also results in this usage, not heart of palm.

I have considered the other names, but in my opinion, they're all less suitable. "Coconut apple" is too ambiguous (it can refer to flavor combinations of coconut and apple). "Coconut pearl" is taken by the hoax/legendary coconut pearl. "Coconut cotyledon" and "Coconut haustorium" are accurate, but too technical for laymen. "Coconut embryo" is incorrect.

"Shoots" is not a synonym of "sprouts" either. Heart of palm is a completely different product created from the center of the apical leaf buds of palms. They are extracted from mature palms or palm seedlings that are wide enough to have harvestable cores (at least 1 to 2 years old), so the word "sprout" doesn't apply to them anymore. More importantly, I can not see any sources where heart of palm from coconuts is referred to as "coconut sprout". The closest I can see are palmyra sprouts (which really do come from sprouting palmyras).

That said, I've moved the article to Sprouted coconut as the more common form of the name.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:03, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

This is heart of palm
This is not heart of palm
This is not the source of heart of palm

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A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	The way you see the world is how I see the world. I read your article on Moringa led me to register on wikipedia just to communicate with you, tracked you here. Would love to talk to you sometime. Vishva1.618 (talk) 14:21, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

@Vishva1.618: Hi. I'm glad an article inspired you to register, but I'm a bit confused. If you're referring to the article on Moringa oleifera, I did not write that, I did not contribute significantly to writing that, nor did I write about that topic anywhere else in the internet. So I can't accept the barnstar. :P I'm assuming the article you read is not in Wikipedia. The author may have simply used Wikipedia as a major source.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 14:37, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

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Thanks.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:40, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

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Austronesian languages - "Comparison charts"

Hi Obsidian Soul! I would like to invite you to have look at this discussion Talk:Austronesian languages#Inflated "Comparison charts", for your opinion as a Filipino, and as an active editor in Austronesian cultural subjects. –Austronesier (talk) 10:41, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Πτεροδάκτυλος

Dear Obsidian Soul, you have added the name πτεροδάκτυλος in this edit. I doubt however, whether this word is actually attested in ancient Greek. Did you found this name in a source for ancient Greek, or did you used a source for modern Greek? Modern Greek knows a lot of internationalisms that use Greek word elements, while the full compounds do not originate from Greece. Wimpus (talk) 20:48, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@Wimpus:Yes, that was incorrect. This was 8 years ago, back when I was still new to editing. Heh. I don't even remember making this edit. The bottom paragraph of that revision (which has since disappeared), gives the correct etymology which identifies the component words πτερόn and δάκτυλος, not the "scientific Greek" compound word. My bad.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 22:06, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I will removed the compound. Wimpus (talk) 07:52, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Onuad

Onuad root is mentioned in the article Tapuy, to which you've made some fairly recent contributions. I've added a note but can't fully get to the bottom of it - have you any thoughts? Ingratis (talk) 17:22, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

@Ingratis: It seems both are used, which doesn't seem that unlikely given both are edible asters and have very similar habits. And not just the roots either, but seeds, flowers, and leaves. I found these papers from early descriptions of tapuy during the American period of the Philippines:

Beyer, H. Otley (1912). "Report on the use of a fermented rice drink in Northern Luzon". The Philippine Journal of Science. 7: 103-106.

This mentions that C. caudatus is "ónwâd" in a footnote in p.104

Since writing the above, I have learned some further details with regard to the manufacture of this yeast. The most important plant used is called ónwâd, in Ifugao, and its scientific name is Cosmos caudatus HBK., Compositae. The other plants used have no value as yeast producers, and are used only for religious reasons. They are sacred plants, commonly used in many different religious ceremonies.

From the same journal, we also have:

Gibbs, H.D.; Agcaoili, F. (1912). "The Alcohol Industry of the Philippine Islands. Part III. Fermented beverages which are not distilled". The Philippine Journal of Science. 7: 97–117.

This on the other hand, mentions B. pilosa is "anguad" or "in-wood" (either cognates or different transcriptions of onuad) or "lad-lad-king", in a footnote in p.102

The rice is boiled and put in baskets to dry. When dry it is mixed with a small quantity of bubud, which is a mixture of powdered rice, or rice flour, the roots, leaves, seeds, and flowers of a plant called anguad, lad-lad-king, or in-wood. The whole is then made into a pasty ball with water, dried in the sun, and powdered. Jars are half filled with this mixture and set away to ferment. The beverage can be drunk after three days. It is sometimes diluted with water to reduce its strength.

What's intriguing to me is that both are introduced species from the Americas, which makes me wonder what plant they replaced prior to the Spanish colonization.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:00, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Wonderful - thank you very much! that sorts it out nicely. Is it OK with you if I make a short article based on your reply? Ingratis (talk) 11:13, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

@Ingratis: Of course I don't mind. Cheers for the clarification on the tapuy article. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 13:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

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Austronesian skink?

Recently there has been talk about the distribution of the emerald tree skink (Lamprolepis smaragdina) matching the distribution of Austronesian languages very closely. Could the emerald tree skink have traveled along with the Austronesian voyagers? To the best of my knowledge, nothing about this has been published yet. But when this does get published, perhaps it would be a good idea to add this species to domesticated plants and animals of Austronesia? Sagotreespirit (talk) 15:13, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sagotreespirit: Yeah we can't really add an entry without papers supporting it. In my opinion, it's probably not a commensal, since it is a very good swimmer after all. But yeah, if (when?) a study gets published, we can add it. The only commensal animal that I know of identified by studies I've read is the Pacific rat (not including human microflora and parasites like human lice, of course). There's also the water buffalo which was carried to a limited range by Austronesians. Both of those I haven't added since I ran out of time expanding before real life got busier.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 08:52, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

EDIT: Ah, you already added more. Thank you. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 08:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

@Obsidian Soul: The question is how skinks would have sneaked onto Austronesian boats. Usually you would think of geckos, not tree skinks, as maritime stowaways. So I'm not sure if this is due to coincidence. Sagotreespirit (talk) 06:01, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Also I've put up a list of animals that are reconstructable in Oceanic or an Oceanic subgroup, or are at least present in the Oceanic-speaking world: User:Sagotreespirit/Oceanic animals. Sagotreespirit (talk) 06:03, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Sagotreespirit: True, but they never reached Far Oceania or Madagascar though. Only in relatively near islands in maritime Southeast Asia and Australasia, which is why I kinda doubt it. But we'll see if a study gets published. I am by no means an expert. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 14:23, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Tireless Contributor Barnstar

		The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
		Here is a barnstar for your excellent work on Austronesian articles and more! Thank you for your prolific long-term contributions to Wikipedia. — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 15:29, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Sagotreespirit: Thank you! :) -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 21:56, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for dropping by at Bikol Wikipedia

Hello there! --Filipinayzd 10:46, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

That was the bot I think, heh. I was correcting a filename in Commons and moved an image. I don't speak Bicolano, unfortunately.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:47, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

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Tubho tea

The Barcelona (2003) reference I added to Tubho tea is the only non-blog one I can find that gives a scientific name; if you search for something like "tubho tea biflora" you get a lot of Wikipedia mirrors of our article. She uses Sphenomeris biflora and gives the synonym Davallia biflora, so it's clear that it's the species that the Checklist of Ferns and Lycophytes of the World and Plants of the World Online call Odontosoria biflora, hence my creation of the article, which you noticed. Do you know of any other reliable references that identify the species used to make the tea? Peter coxhead (talk) 09:50, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Peter coxhead: Hm. I think Barcelona was also my original source for the name (couldn't find any other source either), but somehow forgot to include it. The rest of the sources was me trying to find the updated correct name and ending up using the one from Flora Malesiana. I think they also updated it. I am not sure though. Either way, yours is probably more up-to-date.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:28, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Ok, thanks; we'll have to leave it at that then. Fern identification and taxonomy is, as I've discovered, a complex and disputed subject. Musa species were much easier and more interesting! Peter coxhead (talk) 14:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Heh true. Cheers for the correction. :) -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 16:10, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

November 2019

Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you copied or moved text from Sultanate of Sulu into another page. While you are welcome to re-use Wikipedia's content, here or elsewhere, Wikipedia's licensing does require that you provide attribution to the original contributor(s). When copying within Wikipedia, this is supplied at minimum in an edit summary at the page into which you've copied content, disclosing the copying and linking to the copied page, e.g., copied content from [[page name]]; see that page's history for attribution. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to also place a properly formatted {{copied}} template on the talk pages of the source and destination. The attribution has been provided for this situation, but if you have copied material between pages before, even if it was a long time ago, please provide attribution for that duplication. You can read more about the procedure and the reasons at Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Thank you. 💵Money💵emoji💵^{Talk💸Help out at CCI!} 03:34, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

I only copied it initially as a framework. The current text isn't a copy-paste.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 07:15, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Obsidian Soul, Feel free to ignore then- Copypatrol sometimes detects acceptable paraphrasing as plagiarizing. Sorry for the hassle, 💵Money💵emoji💵^{Talk💸Help out at CCI!} 20:06, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

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Belated holiday greetings. Merry Christmas and happy new year.
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@Pine: Merry Christmas. :) -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 23:57, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

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Obsidian Soul,
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@Northamerica1000: Happy new year. :) -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 20:54, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

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