User talk:Khunfus

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Category:Bukharan Islamic Scholars[edit]

Please stop adding this category everywhere where it has no relevance. Can't help but think this is more Wikipedia:Tendentious editing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why so? Is it not correct in saying that their scholarship and education originated from/was based in Bukhara when it is true that it was so? Why do you keep targeting and reverting my edits when they are based in reality? Abu Yagub (talk) 11:38, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I am using Bukhara the way the Arabs used it: meaning Transoxania. I know Bukhara was a city, but Arabs (and Islamic scholars not from Transoxania nor Persia) used Bukhara as a catch-all term for basically any city in Transoxania (Margilan, Samarqand, Namankan, etc.). Thank you for removing the category from pages that it did not belong to and elaborating why (like Narshakhi who was not a theologian), but I cannot help but feel you are targeting my edits. I am NOT saying, for example, that Avicenna was Bukhari and not Persian; I am saying that his scholarship was based in and from Bukhara and that this could be said for many of the scholars that were added to this category; would you not say the same?

P.S. Avicenna is technically an Islamic scholar as his interests included Kalam (islamic theology) and Islamic philosophy. Abu Yagub (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Bukhara does not mean Transoxiana. More WP:OR from you. One is a city the other is a region (even if the Arabs did that, modern day scholarly sources certainly does not). Show sources for it then. If you continue this pattern you will get reported to WP:ANI. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:25, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I will retract the Transoxania claim until I find a proper source for it (most of them are news sites). However, are Samarqand, Margilan, Tashkent and Nasaf (Qarshi) not cities of Bukhara? Abu Yagub (talk) 13:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. --HistoryofIran (talk) 13:52, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For Arabs, the cities of Samarqand, Bukhara, Tashkent, Margilan, Andijan, Namangan, etc. are all considered part of “Bukhara.” Since you claim otherwise, maybe the best way to find common ground is to see what these cities are called in English? Are they Uzbek, Transoxanian, etc.? Abu Yagub (talk) 14:06, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, either find reliable sources for your claims or leave these articles alone. Stop adding your own personal opinion, read the rules. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:22, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is not my “own personal opinion”? I am simply asking you what is the equivalent of that in English? Because there is a trend in that region with the scholars that I added to the list and it would be beneficial to create this category to pool them together as they all came from the same region and inspired one another.

Anyway, after delving more into the topic, I realized the term “Bukharan Islamic Scholars” (علماء بخارى, or, more historically, ما وراء النهر) was lost in translation; the more appropriate title would be “Uzbek Islamic Scholars” (I will elaborate that these scholars must have originated from what is now modern-day Uzbekistan). I will place this change into effect and add the scholars that could be categorized as such (if that is okay with you). Abu Yagub (talk) 14:39, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What is it then? You have no sources and keep making such claims. No, Uzbek Islamic Scholars refers to Islamic scholars who are actually ethnic Uzbek. --HistoryofIran (talk) 14:46, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I said I would specify that they originated from a city in what is now modern-day Uzbekistan. Most of these sources term them Uzbek (or scholars from Uzbekistan). Here (I will find more!):

https://u.osu.edu/uzbekistan/history/part-two-islamic-culture-in-the-medieval-period/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0315086083710207/pdf?md5=638efa705c3caae9053a844d55873475&pid=1-s2.0-S0315086083710207-main.pdf

https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/pub/media/resources/9781474416344_Muslims_of_Central_Asia_Chapter1.pdf (pp. 16-17)

https://carnegieendowment.org/files/cp91_islam_uzbek_final.pdf (p. 18)

https://books.google.com/books?id=pDiHEcUAl_8C&pg=PA189&lpg=PA189&dq=medieval+islamic+scholars+uzbekistan&source=bl&ots=4Be88YbM3m&sig=ACfU3U3bWkmEry25ryZc34XknVbrn41sEw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjt5reK3PnyAhVzFFkFHYZiAxM4ChDoAXoECBYQAw#v=onepage&q=medieval%20islamic%20scholars%20uzbekistan&f=false --Abu Yagub (talk) 15:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So... where does those sources call Bukhara = Transoxiana? No, Uzbek Islamic Scholars refers to Islamic scholars who are actually ethnic Uzbek. I think we're done here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:27, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I never said those sources claim Bukhara = Transoxania. I am showing that these sources call these scholars as Islamic scholars from Uzbekistan. You cannot just say "we're done here" after I provided all those sources. You are just finding any reason to negate or revert my edits, even after I provided sufficient sources. I also said that I would specify that I meant Islamic scholars from cities originating from modern-day Uzbekistan. I could also use the alternative "Islamic Scholars from Uzbekistan". --Abu Yagub (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then be more clear, we've been talking about that through the whole discussion. Please cite those sources that explicity say 'Islamic Scholar(s) from Uzbekistan'. Anyways, adding that category to scholars who arent from Uzbekistan is anachrnostic, look at our other categories. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My friend, I provided you with 5 sources. What more do you want? Each one claims that these scholars originate from Uzbekistan. If they are from Samarqand, Margilan, Tashkent, Bukhara, Nasaf (Qarshi), etc. then they are from what is now modern-day Uzbekistan. I will be sure to specify this to avoid confusion. --Abu Yagub (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ofc those cities are in modern day Uzbekistan.. that's not the point. --HistoryofIran (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is the point: if these cities are in modern-day Uzbekistan, then you can claim, as the above sources have, that these scholars originated from what is now modern-day Uzbekistan. Like I said, I will be sure to specify in the category page the following: "the following list depicts the various medieval Islamic scholars, pioneers and influencers of Islamic theology and philosophy, who originated from what is now modern-day Uzbekistan. This includes but it not limited to the cities of Bukhara, Samarqand, Tashkent, Nasafi (Qarshi), and Margilan." This would clear up any misconceptions, would it not? Since it mentions that they are medieval and that they originate from these cities in what is now modern-day Uzbekistan. --Abu Yagub (talk) 15:57, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No because the name of the category is still something entirely else. I'm gonna repeat myself for the last time; look at the other categories of this article, nowhere do we something even akin to what you want. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:00, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How is the name entirely else? These sources claim that they are Islamic Scholars of Uzbekistan.... If you do not like the name, then offer another one (as I have asked you to do); otherwise, I will change the category name to "Uzbek Islamic Scholars" and add that description to clarify any confusion as well as use the sources I have provided above. Please stop reverting it as I have provided you with sufficient sources: if you still disagree then report me and provide this talk page as proof, as I have tried to be reasonable with you. The category is relevant and important, as there is an obvious trend within this region and the scholars (as found within the sources I have provided). --Abu Yagub (talk) 16:05, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This has nothing to do with disagreeing, that is simple English and Wikipedia categories. I would highly advise you to not continue. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:12, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It is disagreeing if I provided you with sufficient sources. Also, are you threatening me? --Abu Yagub (talk) 16:15, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The final title of the category will be "Medieval Islamic scholars from Uzbekistan". I elaborated more in the category page itself and provided the sources I gave to you above. Please reconsider your position; if not, feel free to report me rather than start another edit war. I understand your concerns, but I believe that I sufficiently addressed them as well as provided sources to curb them. --Abu Yagub (talk) 17:20, 12 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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