Help us organize and improve Phoenicia-related articles[edit]
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Thank you Elias. I can understand English easily, but editing in English is hard for me. I focus on improving the Phoenicia-Canaan articles in Hebrew (and I am the only editor who focuses on this topic there). I will be glad to help in specipic problems and needs, I have a wide variety of sources (some of the Hebrew sources are quite unique and have information that's very hard to find in other languages, due to the special Hebrew interest in Canaanite topics). Let me know if you need anything and tag me whenevr you want. If there is a special tag-group for Phoenicia expert. פעמי-עליון (talk) 21:53, 27 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I donwt think I am able to go over all of the articles there; I have some suggestions, I'll write them there. Thanks, פעמי-עליון (talk) 13:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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THanks for letting me know (although for a minute I thought the deletion discussion concerns the article itself, and I was relieved to discover it's only the redirect), I will answer you there. פעמי-עליון (talk) 23:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey @פעמי-עליון no worries, this looks like an area where you're an expert so if you head over the RfD and just explain it a little I'll withdraw the RfD. It's not personal, I just couldn't find anything and wasn't sure if the redirect made sense. Dr vulpes(💬 • 📝) 23:30, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the compliment :) and thanks for doing it in good spirits and in such kindness, it could be quite stressful for me otherwise. פעמי-עליון (talk) 12:12, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I have some reservations about your change of the short description of the Resheph page. As it stands, the cultures were listed roughly in the order of relevance of evidence - Ebla first due to abundance and antiquity, Ugarit second due to being the main source of evidence for the second millennium BCE, and then Egypt where Resheph had limited relevance, with other text corpora not included due to scarcity of attestations. Most authors firmly treat him as a core member of the North Syrian milieu and he's not really attested in particularly many sources from between Gaza and Byblos or so, and I'm pretty sure that's the generally accepted extent of Canaan. Stronger grounds for adding "Hurrian" or "Cypriot" than Canaanite, tbh. HaniwaEnthusiast (talk) 17:08, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry in advance for the broken English, it is not my first language.
a Figurine of Reshep from southern Canaan
Hi, thanks for approaching. Reshep was a Canaanite god, I don't think you will be able to find a source that says he isn't (it's not an evidence by itself, but it helps the other evidence). His appearence in Cyprus are purely Phoenician, and I don't know about his Hurrian appearences (sadly, I am not very familiar with Hurrian culture and religion). Reshep in Egypt was worshiped as a Levantine god (see for example here), not an Egyptian god. I think there are more evidence, perhaps Elias Ziade will be able to help :) פעמי-עליון (talk) 18:22, 22 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@HaniwaEnthusiast Resheph is mentioned on some of the Sidonian Bodashtart inscriptions (’RṢ RŠPM). The iconography of the "Smiting god" that is often linked to Resheph is also present on the 13th century BC Sidonian cylinder seal of Addumu. Impression and Seal of Addumu, Sidon.
I understand HaniwaEnthusiast's POV and I think "West Semitic god" is better alternative to Canaanite. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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Thanks for your contributions to Sakkun. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability.
I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.
Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page.
When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:31, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi voorts, thanks for keeping Wikipedia sources standard. I myself act similarly in Hebrew Wikipedia.
About the notability of the god Sakkun: We may not know much about him, but he is well attested in the Phoenician onomasticon. I added more sources and put some of the exiting sources (like CIS) in notes. If you check Baumgartner's book you will see that scholars have been dealing with this god and the issues concerning his name and nature for over 150 years. I hope you will be able to accept the submission soon. פעמי-עליון (talk) 12:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sakkun, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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Great! The moving to the draft was unnecessary, had the mover asked me to add sources, I would have simply add some of them in a few minutes. Thanks Johannes! פעמי-עליון (talk) 23:34, 14 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please be careful removing sourced content as you did here [1], especially when your edit summary only says "Repeated information", suggesting you only removed duplicated content which was not the case.
Hi IOHANNVSVERVS! I will reply here on both your messages.
About the (un)repeated content removal: I apologize for removing the Peel Comission by mistake, which wasn't mentioned twice or more like other events in that section (like the Arab revolt or White Paper). Thanks for noticing, please feel free to give me notes when Imake such mistakes. English is not my first language so my ability to deal with a lot of information at once is a bit wicker than in Hebrew, I will be more careful of such mistakes from now on.
About the Ttemplate: thanks, I was not aware of all of the rules, and I generaly like this kind of infornative templates. I just want to make sure I understood correctly – I am allowed to do more than one revert in pages under ARBPIA within 24 hours, as long as they are not the same page, right? I try to concentrate my edits in controversial topic in a short time every few days to keep the Wikistress down, so I think I might find myself make more than 1 revert in one "window" (not on the same page, of course). פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:44, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"I am allowed to do more than one revert in pages under ARBPIA within 24 hours, as long as they are not the same page, right?"
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Hi! I think you confused between Yod (𐤉) and He (𐤄, appears in the picture). Yod is probably based on 𓂝, which is puite identical to Proto-Sinaitic Yod. About 𓁸 – this is interesting, the Proto-Sinaitic He is similar to 𓀠 and 𓁏, but not so much to 𐤄 (there is some resemblance, but the transition is unusual in my opinion), so it is not impossible that 𓁸 is the source to the later form of He. What I think we must remember is thatmost of the findings about Proto-Sianitic script are from hundreds of year after it's initial developmant, so it's very hard to conclude anything decisively. Do you have any sources about the development of Proto-Sianitic script from Egyptian hieroglyphs? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:42, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry yes of course I meant 𐤄. I was just reading Orly Goldwasser's 2006 paper, which is great. Before that I was reading the unicode document on proto-Sinaitic. 𓀠 and 𓁏 are clear to be seen early, but then disappear entirely. I don't think a stem with three lines like that looks anything like a human pose. Temerarius (talk) 14:45, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Remember, the Judean and Israelite forms were developted almost a millennium after some Canaanites started using alphabetic letters based on hieroglyphs froms they saw, a lot can change in such period... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 15:12, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was also thinking maybe if not hair exactly a comb. Temerarius (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is amazing! I have never studied this topic properly. thank you, פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 21:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you enjoy! Use @פעמי-עליון the at feature, I don't think it'll notify me otherwise. Temerarius (talk) 23:43, 1 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Temerarius, try to subscribe button, it is very helpful. By thr way, you don't need to tag a user in his talk page - any comment in a user page automatically alerts the user פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 09:51, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! This is interesting, here's somebody else mentioning the possibility of a "hair" concept coming in, coincidentally found it just now. https://imgur.com/a/u8wAPPqTemerarius (talk) 01:01, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://imgur.com/a/XgQYbvb Here I found a hieroglyph corresponding to one that Albright 69 said was a ligature, or a blend of two letters stuck together. I doubt. Temerarius (talk) 01:47, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Amazing. It's page 99 here: [2] or [3]. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:45, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying the 𓄤 symbol might be the same character as the one on the left in this picture? https://imgur.com/a/Zev9wndTemerarius (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's very likely but we sould not reject it outright פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:59, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Variations on that 𓄤 symbol were very popular, I think, in non Egyptian-literate areas. I'm not sure what they considered it, but they often put it right next to and equal with an ankh. I'm skeptical of the tub "good" meaning interpretation and of the tet derivation from it. Temerarius (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The letter Teth in the Canaanite script is extremely insteresting, because both in the Phoenician early script and in the Ugaritic script (which was partially based on the Phoenician one) the sign is a combination of the Taw and Ayin signs (and that reflects the pronounciation).
Do youknow any publication of all of the Proto-Canaanite inscriptions? I want to get deeper into this topic, and to do so I need first to be familiar with the archaeological evidence. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 19:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I love your enthusiasm! Feel free to write to me here in another language if it'd be easier for you to do. I don't know what "proto-Canaanite" means, to be honest. What location or time period are you looking for? Or more of the alphabetic development milestones? Temerarius (talk) 19:37, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Union" was the other similar symbol with ''nfr''. Temerarius (talk) 18:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The Anra Scarab: An archaeological and historical approach" might be something to read if you're looking into this symbol. Mention of nfr's popularity along with ankh on p 62 Temerarius (talk) 02:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, "proto-Canaanite" is the name used in Hebrew for any Canaanite alphabetic script before Ahiram sarcophagus, of any location (although I am interested in all of the phases of the Canaanite epigraphy) – so any source collecting pre-Ahiram Canaanite inscritions will be useful for me to learn this script.
I know Cooke's book, it's good, but it conrains inscriptions from Ahiram time and later... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you take the photo of the glass necklace with the heads too? That's one of my faves. Thanks for the Lachish Ewer pics! Temerarius (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is one of my favorites too :) but no, I didn't take it. The credit goes to Giovanni Dall'Orto. I hope to go somewhen to Sardinia to see Phoenician (as well as other cultures) remains there.
I think I will get a new camera soon and go to the Israel museum to take better photoes of the exhibits, including Lachish Ewer! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 12:21, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! Look out for the Izbet Sarteh ostracon. I think it's on display. There's one photo on wiki but it's not readable. :) Temerarius (talk) 15:20, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should ask to see their reproduction of the Kuntillet Ajrud pithoi. Are there any other items you're excited to see at the museum? Temerarius (talk) 15:45, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you link to the pjoto of Izbet Sarteh ostracon, so i'll know not to miss it?
About Kuntillet Ajrud pithoi, I think reproductions are still under copyrights, so even if I see them (I am quite sure they are sadly not on display...), I won't be able to upload them.
And of course I am excited to see so many items! Proto-Aeolic capitals, letters from Hasor, one of the Taanakh cult stands (the other one is sadly in Turkey), Tel Dan inscription, the Ketef Hinnom priestly benediction scrolls, and even some Phoenician items :) Have you ever been to Israel Museum? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:22, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've never been to any museum, unfortunately! Not one with this kind of stuff. https://imgur.com/a/2zKb3T8 This is a drawing of the ostracon; the item itself appears pretty blank. The script is light, you can barely see it. I'll try to find that photo again. I think it was taken by Dr Gary Lee Todd. I can't wait to see some crisp pics of the cult stand! Temerarius (talk) 19:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If they say you can't see the replicas, you should ask "How about the originals?" Temerarius (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I highly recommend you to visit museums, if you can! Photos of the finding are nothing like seeing the real thing.
About Izbet Sarteh ostrakon, I don't rememver it is on display, but I'll check again. And about the original pithoi of Kuntillet Ajrud - sadly they are kept in Egypt... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:50, 6 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, about the pithoi: due to an agreement between Israel Antiquities Authority and Egyptian archaeologies in 1993, the discoveries from Kuntillet Ajrud were given to Egypt (after it returned to occupy Sinai). They weren't on display and their location wasn't known. In 2011 Egyptian revolution, many museums and storages were looted, but eventualy it was stated that the items that were given to Egypt by Israel were returned to the state and storaged safely in Cairo. Sources are here. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:53, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The second source is wrong. Leads me to something totally unrelated. Is that link wrong for you too? Temerarius (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are right! I fixed the source just now. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:35, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Finding consensus at Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza[edit]
Hey, thanks for pitching in at Talk:Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza. More attention on the subject can help the community come to a reasonable decision. But I noticed the input you provided is based on your personal analysis of the subject. This type of input can be counterproductive, because consensus on Wikipedia should be based on reliable sources and policy-based arguments. In the case of a page move, arguments should be based on what the subject is explicitly called in reliable sources, not what individual editors understand or determine it to be. Personal interpretation or analysis is generally given little to no weight when determining the results of the discussion. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 21:58, 5 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Thebiguglyalien, sorry I didn't answer (I started to answer but forgot finishing). I am not sure what do you mean by personal interpretation. The opinion of the ICJ judges, which can in no way be interpreted as accepting the genocide allegations as probable (as I explained there), is in my opinion a way better source than any of the thousands of jounalistic (and non academic) sources that are used for writing the articles about the war. I support the policy of sources-based arguments, so I will be happy to understand where did I deviate from it. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @פעמי-עליון I am guessing you can read hebrew, and I saw that your edits involve the ancient near eastern religious traditions. It seems that someone translated an article from the Hebrew Wikipedia and it ended up like this: Tavern (ceremony).
I am not an expert but I believe things must have been lost in translation because the term is not attested in current literature. I personally think the article should be moved to draft space until it is okay. What do you think. GusChago (talk) 08:42, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi GusChago :) Yes, only from the title chosen, I can see it must be immediately moved to draft. I am acctualy the one who wrote most of the Hebrew article, and it is indeed translated from it. I am not sure what is the move-to-draft-policy here (in Hebrew, a new article with problems can be moved right away), please let me know when is it moved to draft so I will be able to correct it! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I can't believe it: the Phoecnician name of Kition is kty (pronounced "kitiya"), so that's how I write it in Hebrew when it comes in Phoenician context, so "in Kition" in "bkty" ("b" = in). The translator didn't understand it (and probably doesn't understand Hebrew at all), so how did he translate the term "bkty" (be-ḵitiya)? "Bakhti"! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:41, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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