Template talk:Country data Western Sahara

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Untitled[edit]

This territory has no flag (CIA World fact book, Western Sahara), and its POV to use a flag which don't exist in this template. The flag of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is in Template:Country data Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Use this last template if you want a flag.

In this template, we can use a map, otherwise nothing. We can discuss about these 2 options. --Juiced lemon 17:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The point These templates are for flags, not maps. These flags are not based on the CIA World Factbook (e.g. there is a template for South Ossetia.) Please don't break them. Western Sahara does have a flag, and the objection that you're raising here has been raised on Talk:Flag of Western Sahara several times without the page ever being moved. Please don't unilaterally change this template to break it. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Request for Comment: Western Sahara and the SADR[edit]

This is a dispute about what picture have to be associated with Western Sahara in this template:

--Juiced lemon 08:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
  • Western Sahara is a disputed territory between Morocco and with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. So, every association of Western Sahara with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is POV, understanding that Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic owns legitimate rights over Western Sahara. It's also POV when you associate Western Sahara with any symbol of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic. Juiced lemon 16:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (User talk:Juiced lemon#List of sovereign states)
  • It is not the case that "every association of Western Sahara with the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic is POV," as the SADR is by its very nature, associated with Western Sahara; it is the government-in-exile of the latter. Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 16:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (User talk:Juiced lemon#List of sovereign states)
  • These templates are for flags, not maps. These flags are not based on the CIA World Factbook (e.g. there is a template for South Ossetia.) Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 17:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (this talk page)
  • Western Sahara is a disputed territory that the UN is yet to solve the issue. Actually it is arranging for direct negotiations between the conflict parties: Morocco and the Polisario Front. What Koavf has been doing [deleted assessment] is to anticipate the result of the conflict and use the flag of one of the parties (guess which) to the conflict as the official Western Sahara flag, whereas WS has no flag as a disputed territory. Therefore, WS should not have a flag template, while the SADR, the government-in-exile of the Polisario has one, and can be used in the SADR articles, but not in Western Sahara articles. The French Wikipedia for example uses exactly the map outline that Juiced Lemon has been using here. -A Jalil 19:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC) (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Juiced_lemon (talk • contribs • logs) and WP:Point)
  • If there's a serious international dispute over the territory, use a neutral symbol, like the suggestion, not a flag unless it's counter-balanced by the other flag in question, like "A/B" or something. --Haemo 08:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comments

See also Talk:Flag of Western Sahara#Request for Comment: In-article name & dab. --Juiced lemon 08:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • It appears that there is no political entity that has any sort of recognition in Western Sahara (please correct me if I'm wrong), and therefore no appropriate flag. A map is not a flag, so it is also inappropriate.--Doron 09:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
AU, etc. The SADR represents all of Western Sahara in the African Union, for instance. And, sure enough, they display this flag there alongside the flag of Zimbabwe, flag of Egypt, etc. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • My suggestion would be to redirect this template to the SADR template. SADR is the country, and is the entity corresponding to other 'country templates'. SADR is recognized as a state by a number of other states, and is a member of the African Union. --Soman 10:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, that would be misleading the reader to think that Western Sahara and The SADR are the same thing which is taking the POV of one side, and is factually wrong. Western Sahara does not have a flag, but has a map that identifies it quite neutrally. This is quite clear. --A Jalil 13:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The country data templates are used to store data, called by other templates when you uses specific arguments like:
  • “ESH”, “Western Sahara”
  • “SADR”, “Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic”
At the moment, Wikipedia articles refer to Western Sahara and/or Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic; examples:
--Juiced lemon 11:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly And you break their functionality by changing this template. Did you look at the Arabic language article (an example that I originally chose for precisely this reason)? Why are there a list of flags with some map in the middle? Does that make any sense to you? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It makes sense because Western Sahara is not a political entity. A map is an appropriate symbol for a geographic area. --Juiced lemon 21:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Political entity Western Sahara is a geographic region with artificial boundaries, making it a political entity. I don't think that's a matter of controversy. This still ignores the basic functionality of the template and the arbitrary nature of putting in a map image (note, ironically, that you chose a political map, and then claimed that it's not a political entity.) Your position is unintelligible. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 03:24, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Several previous RfC's[edit]

What you don't know Although this is conspicuously absent in the text above, there have been multiple RfC's on precisely this issue, including a vote, and every time, the consensus has been to leave the page Flag of Western Sahara where it is, with the same graphic that it currently has. Again, there are flag templates for other disputed/occupied/etc. territories, and there is no reason to apply a double-standard here. For instance:

Notice that none of these flag templates arbitrarily include maps and thus, they serve their purpose in articles. By capriciously include a political outline map of a territory into a flag template, Juiced lemon is implying that image is the flag of Western Sahara, and that is clearly not the case nor is it NPOV; it's just confusing and unintelligible. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria are listed in the Wikipedia article list of countries; Chechnya is the Chechen Republic, in the Russian Federation. These political entities are not comparable with Western Sahara, a geographical region. Another political entity, the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic has a flag, but Western Sahara hasn't. --Juiced lemon 17:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Country It's under that heading because you just changed it. That doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you're doing the same thing on several articles. Are you being serious? How are these not comparable? They apparently are. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:50, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I wrote earlier, I don't know the exact status of Western Sahara with regards to SADR, but I just wanted to note that all the former Soviet entities listed above control the entire territory that the respective flag is associated with.--Doron 20:00, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bonus: Broken tables[edit]

Sigh I took a look around, and apparently, Juiced lemon's edits have broken the template so that that it consequently breaks tables as well. Two examples:

There are more as well. So, in addition to including a map alongside dozens of flags, this formatting is additionally breaking the formatting of articles. Can someone please fix this? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Update Apparently, it's due to edits to Template:ESH, another flag template in which he has inserted a map for some reason. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
YOU are responsible of the mess you point out! On this edit, you added a POV template, and you also included a line feed in Template:ESH! I have fixed the problem. --Juiced lemon 16:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies Too true; it was my formatting that broke the template, but nonetheless, my statement still stands about how bizarre and inappropriate it is to include the map, essentially implying that is the flag of Western Sahara. Forgive my hastiness. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conflict resolution[edit]

I protected this template a few days ago to stop the ongoing edit war. The protection expires tomorrow, and I want to ensure that the edit warring does not resume.

My personal opinion on this dispute, as someone who has invested a lot of time on the Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template project, is that these templates are reserved for actual flags only, and should not be used for any other images (like maps). However, I am sympathetic to the current situation in the region, and the discontinuity of showing a flag in Wikipedia articles to represent an area that has no official flag. The problem is that Western Sahara refers to a geographic region, not a government (even a de facto government if not a de jure government). I think that adding Template:Country data Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic (and the shortcut redirect from Template:Country data SADR) was a good step to resolving the dispute. My suggestion is that we transition the current instances of this template to use that one in articles that reference the government, and to remove any flag icon in articles that reference the geographic region.

However, I will strongly oppose putting a map image in this template. It simply isn't intended for that. It would be better to have nothing at all. Andrwsc 00:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I second that. SADR: SADR flag; Western Sahara: no flag. Chanheigeorge 00:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A question mark image is not what I meant by "no flag". I mean that [[Western Sahara]] (without any flag template call) should be used, and only use {{flag}} or {{flagicon}} with "SADR" as the template argument. Using a question mark is simply an invitation for editors to "fix" the problem (i.e. start edit-warring again). Andrwsc 15:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Removing the image would lead to a similar result (example: Florence#Twinning). I choosed the best available image of flag in order to illustrate the “no flag” idea. If you want another image, I'm afraid you'll have to create it. --Juiced lemon 16:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, in that specific instance, the article on El Aaiún states in the second sentence that the city is administered by Morocco, so if any flag is used, it should probably be Morocco. Failing that, it should be left blank. If the region has no flag, don't use a non-flag image as a placeholder. Use nothing. Andrwsc 17:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another alternative that might be appropriate is something like: {{flagicon|SADR}} {{flagicon|Morocco}} [[Western Sahara]] (i.e. both flags). In any case, the right approach is to look at each of the 79 mainspace articles that transcludes this template and make the appropriate change, then put this template up for deletion at WP:TFD. The wrong approach is to replace the flag image in this template with a non-flag image and hope that this will stick. Andrwsc 16:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This template is used in another templates: it's not so simple to make the suggested replacement. --Juiced lemon 16:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It is used in three other templates, and one of those ({{ESH}}) is a shortcut that ought to be deleted too. It is very simply to make the replacement. Specifically, what would you like to see shown in {{Semitic-speaking nations}} and {{Afro-Asiatic-speaking nations}}? Andrwsc 17:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree with your proposals and your comportment regarding this conflict. You have protected this template in order to avoid edit war, while there was no edit war, except the one you had initiated. So, you clearly impose your opinion (using of your administrator abilities) which don't match any consensus in this talk page. --Juiced lemon 18:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This template (and its predecessor at Template:Country flag alias Western Sahara, under the previous flag template system) were stable since June 2005. One week ago, you, User:Koavf and User:A Jalil participated in an unproductive edit war (5 changes in one hour) that I stopped with the first protection. I had hoped that some reasonable and productive discussion would ensue here, but after a few days, there was nothing. I tried to initiate a discussion (this thread) before the protection expired, but again, nothing from any of the three of you. The only comment was from User:Chanheigeorge, who agreed with me, so there was at least some minimal consensus for my statement.
After the protection expired, you immediately went back and removed the flag. I'll give you credit for using a different image than the map, but you didn't discuss anything here (in an attempt to reach new consensus) until I reverted. I have re-protected the template to the stable version, but please understand I am not endorsing that version. I'll repeat my opinion: I think we should replace all instances of this template and delete it. References to Western Sahara should have no flag. That is not the same thing as a question mark or blank image.
I look forward to your continued discussion here to help us reach a new consensus in this matter. Thanks, Andrwsc 19:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
As I previously said, I choosed the best image in order to illustrate the “no flag” idea. The question mark on the flag was discreet, and I don't understand your aversion to this temporary solution. I didn't discuss because my main purpose was to remove the SADR flag from this template, so I am relatively indifferent to the choice of the replacement solution. --Juiced lemon 23:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Blank space?[edit]

This is an implementation question. If let's say we leave the flag variable blank, is it possible to change the template such that it will skip over the correct amount of space (depending on the size variable), such that it is aligned with the other templates which has a flag? Of course I don't want a question mark image, or even a "white" image. I just want a blank space that you cannot click on. Chanheigeorge 18:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think we have not the necessary functions to do exactly what you want in Template:Country flagcountry2 (this template displays the data).
It would be more simple to create a new image with the text “NO FLAG” in a white rectangle. This rectangle could look like a flag, or like a rule (so it would look like a white line when displayed with a small size). --Juiced lemon 18:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please. That would be the ugliest thing I've ever seen. Chanheigeorge 19:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely! That's no better than the question mark icon. I think Chanheigeorge has the right idea, by creating whitespace (not a clickable image) so that lists remain aligned nicely. There must be some HTML markup to accomplish this — I will experiment and see what I can find. Andrwsc 19:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your help. If no solution that produces blankspace and also preserves the alignment can be found, I also support deleting this template. Chanheigeorge 19:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I found something that looks like it will work perfectly. Take a look at this edit of Template:ESH. I looked at the transclusions of this template, and the lists of nations line up properly. Andrwsc 19:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. That's easy! Great job! Chanheigeorge 19:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I thought we didn't have a function to generate a space with any pixel increment, and I was wrong. A template without flag is a satisfactory solution. --Juiced lemon 22:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is a white flag that can be used, or I can just make a flag graphic of just the color used on Wikipedia. It isn't that hard to make one; only a few minutes in Inkscape. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the idea behind the code I used in Template:ESH was that you wouldn't even have something to click on that brings up an image page. Using a "white flag" could be misleading, as though that was actually used. Andrwsc 23:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Return the Saharaui flag![edit]

Eh! return the Saharaui flag! It is the official flag recognized by the 85 countries of the world who have recognized the independence of Western Sahara. There is not any geographic region called Western Sahara because geographically there is not frontiers in the Saharaian sand. Western Sahara is the short name name of the legitimate Arab saharaui Democratic Republic, Souther Provinces is the name of the de facto colonized Morocco's part and Spanish Sahara is the name of de iure colonial name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.48.47.54 (talk) 18:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Flag[edit]

Should we use this flag instead? Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 10:03, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: Since Western Sahara is a disputed territory, and since this template associates the name of the disputed territory to the flaf of one of its claimants. The proposed flag is neutral per WP:NPOV. --Omar-toons (talk) 04:10, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: the use of the SADR flag alone is clearly a POV.Wimmiden (talk) 08:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Emmette Hernandez Coleman, Omar-toons, and Wimmiden: Would anybody oppose a formal RfC on which (if any) image to use in this template and {{ESH}}, considering all options that have been proposed? The one 7.5 years ago (above), which only chose between the SADR flag and a map, appears to have never been closed, and despite several threads after it, no solution was agreed upon and implemented. (To ping the main commenters above that are still active, @Koavf, Andrwsc, and Chanheigeorge) SiBr4 (talk) 21:44, 11 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I do not oppose a formal RfC --Omar-toons (talk) 01:46, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Me neither Wimmiden (talk) 19:18, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Clear violation of WP:OR because that is an invented image and not a real flag. Either replace the template's image with File:Flag placeholder.svg or use Template:noflag for Western Sahara. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Western Sahara[edit]

Hello,

On the majority of pages mentioning Western Sahara, the template used is:  Western Sahara This use is inadequate and not neutral because the flag shown is that of the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic, which is not neutral.

I tried to change the  Western Sahara template by merely Western Sahara when at least it is listed as a territory and not as SADR. But the changed are very often reverted.

The whole template  Western Sahara should be either modified or deleted because inaccurate and not neutral at all.

Wimmiden (talk) 09:07, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Besides, a SADR templates already exists : [1] It can be used when the entity listed is SADR (like the African Union members list). Otherwise a neutral template should be used. Wimmiden (talk) 09:10, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree about the non-neutrality. I forgot about my RFC suggestion in the above section; could one be started now? SiBr4 (talk) 21:12, 22 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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